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DF: Orbis vs Durango Spec Analysis

B

bgassassin

Member
^ Yes. Total, not extra.

i-Lo said:
Here is a simpler question for you: Are you happy with the way the next gen system designed to be sold for around $400 are being spec'd?
Click to expand...

Before knowing anything about the consoles I came up with what I thought next gen systems from a power perspective should look like while still being affordable. PS4 has pretty much nailed it and Xbox 3 fell into the range I set. So yes I'm happy because both Sony and MS should be able to be profitable early in the consoles lives and that is going to be important for the health of the console market. Especially so since I think the market is going to shrink. The only thing I need from them now is to not wait 7+ years for a successor.
 
I

i-Lo

Member
phosphor112 said:
Those stronger CPU's wouldn't really benefit games would it? Mostly multi tasking? I thought game development was going on a heavy GPU focus.
Click to expand...

Looking at the timeline, one has to sympathize with Sony's situation. Like the PS3, it looks like last minute changes are abound (relatively). The jump from 2 to 4GB GDDR5 UMA and downgrading from Streamroller to baby puss because AMD can not get their production in order, are two major examples. Would Sony have opted to make 14+4 setup with the GPU if the CPU was a steamroller derivative? Maybe but more likely not. Unlike them MS knew what they wanted during the revision after the first draft (if Proelite was being uncharacteristically truthful about that) which looked weak, and got it exactly the way they wanted it, yield issues notwithstanding since it did not lead to an overhaul.
 
S

Spongebob

Banned
bgassassin said:
^ Yes. Total, not extra.



Before knowing anything about the consoles I came up with what I thought next gen systems from a power pwerspective should look like while still being affordable. PS4 has pretty much nailed it and Xbox 3 fell into the range I set. So yes I'm happy because both Sony and MS should be able to be profitable early in the consoles lives and that is going to be important for the health of the console market. Especially so since I think the market is going to shrink. The only thing I need from them now is to not wait 7+ years for a successor.
Click to expand...
I'm not confident that there will be successors.
 
Insane Metal

Insane Metal

Gold Member
Isn't that extra power related to something that was brought up here before? I don't remember exactly what, I only remember that somebody said the cores had 128KB of something each, and Microsoft had gotten them to have 256KB each... does anyone remember what exactly it was about?
 
R

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
i-Lo said:
Looking at the timeline, one has to sympathize with Sony's situation. Like the PS3, it looks like last minute changes are abound (relatively). The jump from 2 to 4GB GDDR5 UMA and downgrading from Streamroller to baby puss because AMD can not get their production in order, are two major examples. Would Sony have opted to make 14+4 setup with the GPU if the CPU was a steamroller derivative? Maybe but more likely not. Unlike them MS knew what they wanted during the revise after the first draft (if Proelite was being uncharacteristically truthful about that) which looked weak, and got it exactly the way they wanted it, yield issues notwithstanding since it did not lead to an overhaul.
Click to expand...

I don't think Jaguar will be that bad for games, especially since both consoles have dedicated audio units. Audio rendering took a huge chunk of CPU resources this gen and will be done completely off the CPU next gen.
 
R

Reiko

Banned
Spongebob said:
Bkilian hinted at this customization a few months back.

Something about making some 128 bit something 256 bit...
Click to expand...

I wonder if SuperDaE is redeemed from his otherwise trollish comments?

He still has that dark shadow of that "no always online" statement hanging over his head.
 
S

scently

Member
I actually wanted to wait until the 20th to say this, but I think if the dual camera of the orbis is standard, then it makes it easier to understand why those 4CUs are reserved for compute. From b3d, bkilian, one of the MS dev involved with kinect, said that without having a depth camera onboard, the cost of analyzing depth information from a normal camera in compute terms is in the hundreds of flops. From the vgleaks, the dual camera will enable some OS level face and hand tracking, so I won't be surprised if it is one of the application these reserved CUs will be working on. Of course I might be wrong as these are all speculation on my part.

Btw I already expected that the durango cpu would be more capable than orbis as bkillian also hinted at this, citing the VMX128 enhancement MS made on the 360, when asked if it was possible to enhance the jaguar cores.
 
I

i-Lo

Member
RoboPlato said:
If those CUs are still good for rendering and can be customized separately from one another it won't compromise much. Even if all 4 are used, there is still a small rendering advantage over Durango. If the Durango CPU advantage is 200GFlops Orbis can still use 1.6Tflops for rendering and the extra 2 CUs for compute.
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With 16 extra ROPs and more TMU, if the PS4 does not have a rendering advantage then I do not understand the logic behind their existence. I know that most of us here have to show a certain amount of ambivalence so as not come off as a fanboy of one camp or the other but numbers are agnostic of such sentiment.
 
S

spwolf

Member
i-Lo said:
Looking at the timeline, one has to sympathize with Sony's situation. Like the PS3, it looks like last minute changes are abound (relatively). The jump from 2 to 4GB GDDR5 UMA and downgrading from Streamroller to baby puss because AMD can not get their production in order, are two major examples. Would Sony have opted to make 14+4 setup with the GPU if the CPU was a steamroller derivative? Maybe but more likely not. Unlike them MS knew what they wanted during the revision after the first draft (if Proelite was being uncharacteristically truthful about that) which looked weak, and got it exactly the way they wanted it, yield issues notwithstanding since it did not lead to an overhaul.
Click to expand...

you are talking out of your arse, you dont know anything about what decisions Sony made or was making, so dont pretend you do.
 
R

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
i-Lo said:
With 16 extra ROPs and more TMU, if the PS4 does not have a rendering advantage then I do not understand the logic behind their existence. I know that most of us here have to show a certain amount of ambivalence so as not come off as a fanboy of one camp or the other but numbers are agnostic of such sentiment.
Click to expand...

I still have doubts about all those ROPs being in the final machine. Seems like 24 would still be a ton and would save on the silicon budget.
 
I

i-Lo

Member
spwolf said:
you are talking out of your arse, you dont know anything about what decisions Sony made or was making, so dont pretend you do.
Click to expand...

I really do not care to find the two sources that had brought those two pieces of information but they have been well known here. The one about switch from steamroller to jag was a in a chinese/japanese website mentioning factories would not be ready in time and the part of upgrade for the RAM is pretty well known to people who read the scathing pastebin article. So no, not really my arse. And let's see you stop me, if you can with your words.
 
B

brain_stew

Member
i-Lo said:
Looking at the timeline, one has to sympathize with Sony's situation. Like the PS3, it looks like last minute changes are abound (relatively). The jump from 2 to 4GB GDDR5 UMA and downgrading from Streamroller to baby puss because AMD can not get their production in order, are two major examples. Would Sony have opted to make 14+4 setup with the GPU if the CPU was a steamroller derivative? Maybe but more likely not. Unlike them MS knew what they wanted during the revision after the first draft (if Proelite was being uncharacteristically truthful about that) which looked weak, and got it exactly the way they wanted it, yield issues notwithstanding since it did not lead to an overhaul.
Click to expand...

4GB was always part of the original plan, just not guaranteed as it's inclusion was outside of Sony's control. 8 Jaguar cores isn't a downgrade and certainly wasn't a last minute change.
 
I

i-Lo

Member
RoboPlato said:
I still have doubts about all those ROPs being in the final machine. Seems like 24 would still be a ton and would save on the silicon budget.
Click to expand...

Some here have said it may have to do with 1080p 3D, although others have said that ROPs play an even larger role. 24 would put it right smack in the middle of Cape Verde and Pitcairn but I think they are not willing to tinker that greatly with certain base infrastructure of the GPU.

brain_stew said:
4GB was always part of the original plan, just not guaranteed as it's inclusion was outside of Sony's control. 8 Jaguar cores isn't a downgrade.
Click to expand...

StevieP alluded otherwise, multiple times.
 
S

spwolf

Member
i-Lo said:
I really do not care to find the two sources that had brought those two pieces of information but they have been well known here. The one about switch from steamroller to jag was a in a chinese/japanese website mentioning factories would not be ready in time and the part of upgrade for the RAM is pretty well known to people who read the scathing pastebin article. So no, not really my arse. And let's see you stop me, if you can with your words.
Click to expand...

why would i stop you? you can make some wild guesses as much as you want... it is just silly to pretend that you know things from reading one paragraph articles from poorly translated websites. "Oh no, Sony upgraded their ram, they didnt know what they were doing before, lol, lol".

Charlie at least has SOME inside info before trying to pretend he knows something, but you dont.
 
THE:MILKMAN

THE:MILKMAN

Member
SlickShoesRUCrazy said:
ps4 changed last summer or something a long those lines.

Something could have changed also for Durango.
Click to expand...

Well I haven't seen anything to suggest changes for either. And the mods here have basically said VGleaks are legit. So it is all a bit confusing.....

If we get a CPU article talking about this all of a sudden from VGleaks on Monday, then I'll start to get really suspicious.
 
R

Reiko

Banned
spwolf said:
why would i stop you? you can make some wild guesses as much as you want... it is just silly to pretend that you know things from reading one paragraph articles from poorly translated websites. "Oh no, Sony upgraded their ram, they didnt know what they were doing before, lol, lol".

Charlie at least has SOME inside info before trying to pretend he knows something, but you dont.
Click to expand...

So what was that devs complaining about RAM amounts rumor all about?
 
I

i-Lo

Member
spwolf said:
why would i stop you? you can make some wild guesses as much as you want... it is just silly to pretend that you know things from reading one paragraph articles from poorly translated websites. "Oh no, Sony upgraded their ram, they didnt know what they were doing before, lol, lol".

Charlie at least has SOME inside info before trying to pretend he knows something, but you dont.
Click to expand...

I never once said that I had insider information. All the information I referred to was posted here on GAF and discussed at length. Perhaps because I spend more time on GAF I am aware of these things. It does not make me an insider and it certainly does not qualify you to put words in my mouth.

This conversation is over.
 
G

googleplex

Member
i-Lo said:
I really do not care to find the two sources that had brought those two pieces of information but they have been well known here. The one about switch from steamroller to jag was a in a chinese/japanese website mentioning factories would not be ready in time and the part of upgrade for the RAM is pretty well known to people who read the scathing pastebin article. So no, not really my arse. And let's see you stop me, if you can with your words.
Click to expand...

This is bullshit,

Sony where telling developers early on that they wanted 4GB of Gddr5 ram. They "knew" that they would have 2 but where shooting for 4GB. That wasn't some last minute knee jerk decision.

And it can't be stressed enough that freeing up 4 CU to be used for ether rendering or compute is a GOOD THING!
 
I

i-Lo

Member
googleplex said:
This is bullshit,

Sony where telling developers early on that they wanted 4GB of Gddr5 ram. They "knew" that they would have 2 but where shooting for 4GB. That wasn't some last minute knee jerk decision.

And it can't be stressed enough that freeing up 4 CU to be used for ether rendering or compute is a GOOD THING!
Click to expand...

I never said it was a knee jerk reaction. Using the phrase "last minute (relatively)" was supposed to be a figure of speech. Given what Thuway posted about the multiple iteration of dev kit (each more powerful than the last), and lherre's comments about MS's specs remaining pretty much same goes to show my point.

The earliest VGleaks document said that they were targeting 4GB but the original plan had 2GB. Had MS not gone for 8GB DDR3 (and instead for 4GB DDR3), one has to wonder whether the upgrade would have happened. And pertaining to CU, I never said it was bad thing to have options, rather questioned this feature's existence if AMD was able to deliver 4 core Steamroller CPU, leaving all 18 CUs for rendering purposes by default.
 
B

bgassassin

Member
i-Lo said:
I never said it was a knee jerk reaction. Using the phrase "last minute (relatively)" was supposed to be a figure of speech. Given what Thuway posted about the multiple iteration of dev kit (each more powerful than the last), and lherre's comments about MS's specs remaining pretty much same goes to show my point.

The earliest VGleaks document said that they were targeting 4GB but the original plan had 2GB. Had MS not gone for 8GB DDR3 (and instead for 4GB DDR3), one has to wonder whether the upgrade would have happened. And pertaining to CU, I never said it was bad thing to have options, rather questioned this feature's existence if AMD was able to deliver 4 core Steamroller CPU, leaving all 18 CUs for rendering purposes by default.
Click to expand...

Actually I don't think MS really had anything to do with that decision. Even way back then it was said that the increase was dependent on memory densities.
 
I

i-Lo

Member
bgassassin said:
Actually I don't think MS really had anything to do with that decision. Even way back then it was said that the increase was dependent on memory densities.
Click to expand...

So 4GB was always the target (day 1) regardless XB3's memory figure? Were they unsure whether the density would increase leading them to pack in 2GB instead in the beginning (to which devs reacting)? Because if they already knew that they would hit the RAM target why would they prejudice the devs with "gimped" spec early on?
 
K

Kung Fu Grip

Banned
So durango's CPU is actually custom, and more powerful than we thought, and PS4's is standard with the addition of the 4 cu's? Interesting developments.
 
B

bgassassin

Member
Guymelef said:
bgassassin: Any info about the "always online" in Durango/Orbis?
Click to expand...

Yes.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=47640295#post47640295

i-Lo said:
So 4GB was always the target (day 1) regardless XB3's memory figure? Were they unsure whether the density would increase leading them to pack in 2GB instead in the beginning (to which devs reacting)? Because if they already knew that they would hit the RAM target why would they prejudice the devs with "gimped" spec early on?
Click to expand...

Like I mentioned it was dependent on the memory densities. You're (hopefully) not going to have devs working with something you may not be able to provide.
 
S

spwolf

Member
i-Lo said:
I never once said that I had insider information. All the information I referred to was posted here on GAF and discussed at length. Perhaps because I spend more time on GAF I am aware of these things. It does not make me an insider and it certainly does not qualify you to put words in my mouth.

This conversation is over.
Click to expand...

What things, rumors? From which you probably concluded that you know how Sony backed from this, changed that, moved for this and all last minute showing how they dont have clue what they are doing.

Like the PS3, it looks like last minute changes are abound (relatively). The jump from 2 to 4GB GDDR5 UMA and downgrading from Streamroller to baby puss because AMD can not get their production in order, are two major examples. Would Sony have opted to make 14+4 setup with the GPU if the CPU was a steamroller derivative? Maybe but more likely not.
Click to expand...

We dont even know final PS4 spec, let alone reasons for them or history of PS4 development. I doubt it is very different from any other important product, otherwise Sony would have spent a lot less on R&D than they do. If you think product development is one straight arrow from start to finish, lol.

R&D is all about trying different paths and deciding on which one to take for final product. It is same for everything, even chewing gum.
 
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