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[Last Hearth]

perhaps you've allowed yourself to accept that digital goods cant be transferred - but that's totally wrong.

and yes, i've never bought anything digital.

i've heard you can trade/sell steam games now in the Uk, why not NA?

just because some people allow these companies to fuck their asses raw with these rules and restrictions on things you buy - which will come the future, become worse - doesn;t mean it's right.

Plus on iOS I'm paying $5 or less for most games, so I'm willing to accept fewer rights for it due to the low price. If they lowered the cost of console games by $10-$20 in exchange for this reduction in value, then sure, I'd be okay with it. But as is all they have done is effectively raised the prices of games. Sure, the price is still $60, but they have reduced the value of the product. It's no different then a wine company that dilutes it's product with water and sells it for the same price.

 

[Schnozberry]

I'd argue that the developer who actually made the game is doing the brunt of the work in this scenario.

Developers and Publishers should be pricing their game accordingly to recover their development costs and turn a profit at the initial retail sale. Asking for additional monies for license transfers between individuals after the initial retail transaction is not common practice in any other industry I can think of.

 

[Imbarkus]

Something worse than this, was attempted when DVDs first came out. Witness the Divx Disc, $5 to buy, plus a fee each time you watch it.

Failed.

 

[kuroshiki]

Having to download 20+ GB games would be a problem for a significant number of consumers around the world.

Xbone is designed to fuck everyone in the world except US.

Something worse than this, was attempted when DVDs first came out. Witness the Divx Disc, $5 to buy, plus a fee each time you watch it.

Failed.

I rather take this. It's basically renting.

 

[coldfoot]

I assume you've never spent a bean on iOS/Android or Steam then?

You can have separate login ID's and store ID's on Apple. I share my store ID with my parents and my wife, but we all have our unique user ID's for iMessage, FaceTime, logging in, etc. Plus I don't spend more than $5 on a single item there except for Pixelmator.

 

[ConfusedCat]

Having to download 20+ GB games would be a problem for a significant number of consumers around the world.

but

it will happen but the end of the gen, this is the end game

 

[CaptNink]

Sounds reasonable. I'm sure there will be some sort of system in place that will allow you to "lend" games to others (maybe you can issue them a 'guest pass' or something, rather than allowing them to log in to your actual account.)

Or maybe they won't. Doesn't matter to me. I have no friends, anyways.

 

[Moobabe]

I assume you've never spent a bean on iOS/Android or Steam then?

It sucks, but I can't figure out why people are treating it as an act of satan when a much harsher DRM has been 100% accepted for years now..

It's been said a MILLION times over the past few days - Steam is much cheaper than console games. Has a greater variety. More sales, BETTER sales.

Steam is also only ONE option on PC. Hell - I just bought Alan Wake + American Nightmare + both OST and a shed load of "making of" stuff for about £5. Use your head.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

Sony were coy in their response to the subject of pre-owned games. They simply said they'd allow them on the console, but if we've learnt one thing in the last few days, is that semantics are being abused in order to hide the real truth. Microsoft also said they'd allow pre-owned games.

The evidence points to Sony adopting a similar policy to this. EA have dropped their Online Pass for all platforms. Why would they do that if Sony were not going to do this?

 

[Phawx]

Guess Gamestop either has some terrible negotiation skills or they don't feel like a) retail is prevalent or b) they have a big enough share to swing their weight around.

That's a shitty setup they negotiated.

I think the GameStop saw the writing on the wall and made a deal. In what other future would GameStop have a chance at selling games when DD is going to take over?

 

[QaaQer]

It's a Sharp, so it's probably got some pretty good stuff. Only recently got it, and haven't watched that much non-gaming stuff through my PS3 on it yet. My previous TV was a Samsung DLP that didn't seem to make much of a difference if I brought it out of Game Mode, so I never did. I'll play with the various modes on my Sharp next time I watch a Blu-ray and see if I notice much of a difference.

Idk, I looked into sharp a couple of years ago and screen calibration was terrible/impossible. They looked good in torch mode in the store, but at home, side by side with a panny plasma, they looked like ass. Quattro colors were/are a worse than useless gimmick.

 

[Snubbers]

They deserve ZERO on second sales of physical media and hardware sales. They already got their money from me when I bought it new. I should have the right to do what I want with the media I purchased. It basically is becoming double taxation. By thinking this way I assume you would be ok with giving Chevy a percentage of what you sell your car for too since you didn't design or build it. If this stuff is allowed to grow then you can expect a lot of other industries to follow suit.

There is such a thing as sustainability. Most developers struggle to make money, or have you not seen how any have gone under the last few years?

The issue seems that we aren't willing to 'pay' a sustainable price for the games, we expect amazing games/assets but only want to pay the same price as 5 years ago..

The ONLY positive I see in all this is that developers will get that extra money without me having to pay anymore then I do today..

 

[mcfrank]

How is this supposed to work for rental outfits like Gamefly?

Its not.

 

[Raist]

Why would retailers for e Sony into doing the same thing? It doesn't look like there's any advantage for them, apart from having a monopoly on used games sales as opposed to private sales, but I doubt it represents a significant proportion of the used games market.

 

[Concept17]

Wouldn't this mean places like Gamestop will be less likely to sell used games for cheaper? As in we'll see mostly just 5$ cheaper than new used games, and less of those 10-20$ used games?

 

[sneaky77]

Xbone is designed to fuck everyone in the world except US.



I rather take this. It's basically renting.

Then you obviously don't know how bad the whole internet thing is here in the US, most companies are trying to move towards cap and the speeds are spoty at best

 

[Opus Angelorum]

The evidence points to Sony adopting a similar policy to this. EA have dropped their Online Pass for all platforms. Why would they do that if Sony were not going to do this?

Indeed.

 

[remnant]

Look at my girlfriends set up. She has an xbox 360 for games and Netflix / hulu , she had a cable box dvr for cable and she has a bluray player for that.

IF she wants to play a game with me she has to switch inputs to the right device. But if she has an xbox one I can simply send her an invite while she is watching bates motel and then she can just hop right int othe game.

That is a nice feature and its a product that doesn't exist.

The Xbox overlay doesn't work over live t.v. u could send her invite but she won't know until she is back in the Xbox UI.

 

[Subxero]

Well what choice do Sony have? If they choose not to implement this the likes of Gamestop will refuse to stock any pre-owned PS4 games.

And it's likely they'll promote XBO games more prominently.

If the public overwhelmingly votes against this practice by buying into the PS4 and WiiU instead giving Sony the larger market share retail and pubs will not hesitate to support them. Obviously they want to make money and they will go wherever they can make the most.

 

[QaaQer]

but

it will happen but the end of the gen, this is the end game

ms desperately wants software as a service, it is true.

 

[Schnozberry]

Here's a business lesson for you. When there is exceeding demand for something many people jack up the prices. Remember when Wii came out and there were none to be had. Places were jacking up prices? Is that good for the consumer? No. Gas companies jack up gas prices in the Summer when everyone goes on their vacations. Pro-consumer? no. Do I still buy gas? yes. I deal with it. I don't like it, but I do it. It's my choice.

When demand outstrips supply you have to raise prices, because paying too much for something is better than not being able to buy it at all. Supply and Demand work this way. I think that is an apples to camels comparison to what we're seeing here.

 

[kuroshiki]

Sony were coy in their response to the subject of pre-owned games. They simply said they'd allow them on the console, but if we've learnt one thing in the last few days, is that semantics are being abused in order to hide the real truth. Microsoft also said they'd allow pre-owned games.

The evidence points to Sony adopting a similar policy to this. EA have dropped their Online Pass for all platforms. Why would they do that if Sony were not going to do this?

EA's WiiU games doesn't have online pass.

 

[grumble]

Needing changes mean providing something that will bring back customer so that they want what you're selling not fuck the customer base we have in the ass till they leave in disgust.
If you support this BS you deserve what you get, if you have so little self control that you think getting treated like a prisonner by a company that sells you stuffs is ok then more power to you.
But don't try to make flimsy excuses as to why it's perfectly reasonnable.

I don't believe that this policy is reasonable, but I do believe that it's something that consumers will grow to accept by voting with their wallets against their best interest. Xbox Live was a great example of that, and was very successful for MS. This may end up similarly, because while it's evil it sure is convenient and you can do ANYTHING to people as long as you do it slowly and quietly.

 

[Mael]

They've said it's not required. It's optional. I severely doubt EA would make a big deal "about listening to consumers complaints and dropping online passes", unless they had a similar deal with Sony. They'll be exercising their right to implement it. Believe.

This system requires your system being online so that the licence is not activated anymore on the seller's system.
So by default it can't work on previous systems or ps4 or wiiu.
Whether or not Sony have something similar remains to be seen, looking at how sony handled the situation so far I'd say their heads are out of their asses long enough to realise that's not a good idea.

I don't believe that this policy is reasonable, but I do believe that it's something that consumers will grow to accept by voting with their wallets against their best interest. Xbox Live was a great example of that, and was very successful for MS. This may end up similarly, because while it's evil it sure is convenient and you can do ANYTHING to people as long as you do it slowly and quietly.

I don't know about the US but here in France they're fucked.
They're a minority in this market and this won't help them at all.
It's only training the people here to ignore their products....like they're doing with Windows 8 and the surface.

 

[coldfoot]

but

it will happen but the end of the gen, this is the end game

That's not the end game. Businesses and most people will keep using their Office 2007/2010/2013 forever.

 

[kuroshiki]

Then you obviously don't know how bad the whole internet thing is here in the US, most companies are trying to move towards cap and the speeds are spoty at best

I live in US. I was talking about Cable TV and NFL and Xbone.

 

[CaptNink]

Sony were coy in their response to the subject of pre-owned games. They simply said they'd allow them on the console, but if we've learnt one thing in the last few days, is that semantics are being abused in order to hide the real truth. Microsoft also said they'd allow pre-owned games.

The evidence points to Sony adopting a similar policy to this. EA have dropped their Online Pass for all platforms. Why would they do that if Sony were not going to do this?

This is our future. We must embrace it. *cry*

 

[Linkhero1]

EA's WiiU games doesn't have online pass.

What Wii U games?

Spoiler

zing!

But he has a point. It's possible that Sony adapted a similar policy for EA to throw their online pass out the window altogether. I hope they didn't, I really do.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Comparisons to Honda aren't valid, imo. A car has continuous utility - when you have a car you can drive it, when you don't, you can't. Games are the same insomuch as when you have a game you can play it, and when you don't you cannot. But a lot of games are much more of an experience - you can experience it once, and for some games you'll want to experience it many more times, or play the mulitplayer. But some games you won't. And this doesn't mean they're bad games, they're just different games. So it's more like selling a book or a film - you can, effectively, get all you can from it, then sell it on. When you do this, you're not really sacrificing anything - unlike selling a car, where the benefit of owning a car disappears as soon as you sell it.

None of which is to defend this - which I think they're entirely entitled to do, though I think it's super dumb - but comparisons to cars and other purely utilitarian devices aren't really valid.

 

[Jacksonlee]

Plus on iOS I'm paying $5 or less for most games, so I'm willing to accept fewer rights for it due to the low price. If they lowered the cost of console games by $10-$20 in exchange for this reduction in value, then sure, I'd be okay with it. But as is all they have done is effectively raised the prices of games. Sure, the price is still $60, but they have reduced the value of the product. It's no different then a wine company that dilutes it's product with water and sells it for the same price.

and there's absolutely no chance of MS EVER doing that. EVER.


why can't we, as gamers and consumers, stop this bullshit before this thing even comes out, to show that we don't want this?

some people want this, apparently, and i have no idea why.

 

[Principate]

EA's WiiU games doesn't have online pass.

Does Wii u even allow Online passes I can't remember any games with it.

 

[Demoncarnotaur]

This fucks over the consumer then.

Kill used games so we don't have to get checked up on every 24 hours. I'd rather have that. Please. Just sell the game cheaper than 59.99 at retail to 'make up for it'.

 

[MikeE21286]

I think the GameStop saw the writing on the wall and made a deal. In what other future would GameStop have a chance at selling games when DD is going to take over?

Someone still needs to sell hardware. They're a very large and influential player there.

Plus the business model for console gamers to pay $60 for digital goods really hasn't proven itself.

I agree, digital will take over sooner or later, but they easily could have done better.

 

[KAL2006]

Sony were coy in their response to the subject of pre-owned games. They simply said they'd allow them on the console, but if we've learnt one thing in the last few days, is that semantics are being abused in order to hide the real truth. Microsoft also said they'd allow pre-owned games.

The evidence points to Sony adopting a similar policy to this. EA have dropped their Online Pass for all platforms. Why would they do that if Sony were not going to do this?

The only hope I have for Sony is that they are more popular in countries were there is a lack of Internet connection, countries were there are no major retailers like Gamestop. But we' ll see what happens if they do do the same thing I'm out. Hasn't anyone bombarded any Sony execs like Yoshida on twitter asking if they are gonna have DRM like XB1.

 

[spookyfish]

looks like a retailer win, publisher win, developer win, MS win, customer win? what is the problem? you can always sell your used game to Gamestop

How is that a customer win? What if someone doesn't want to sell their games to GameStop? Will this still work if you wanted to trade your Xbox game in for a PS game or (god forbid!) a Nintendo game?

"You can do anything with this disc that you could with systems before -- as long as you only sell it to our pre-approved, Microsoft XBone Sales Centers. We make it easier for you by removing the choice."

 

[XxHANNERxX]

I'm in shock after reading this thread. Some of you will so blindly defend a company despite the fact said company is behaving in an anti-consumer way... Guess what? YOU ARE A CONSUMER. Anything that tries to artificially inflate the revenue intake from used-game sales will lower your purchasing power in the market. They aren't doing it to squeeze more money into developer budgets they are doing it for their shareholders. Everyone, Microsoft and Sony fanboys a like should be up in arms with these changes.

If none of this bothers me, why should i be outraged? I an looking forward to an all DD future. Of this hastens that, cool.

 

[Visualante2]

So what? Who lends £40 discs to get scratched to fuck anyway?

I tend to just piss and shit on them.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

Sony were coy in their response to the subject of pre-owned games. They simply said they'd allow them on the console, but if we've learnt one thing in the last few days, is that semantics are being abused in order to hide the real truth. Microsoft also said they'd allow pre-owned games.

The evidence points to Sony adopting a similar policy to this. EA have dropped their Online Pass for all platforms. Why would they do that if Sony were not going to do this?

Plausible. But there is the other question; why would Sony do this?

 

[Jacksonlee]

ms desperately wants software as a service, it is true.

i don't think its a service at all.

 

[witness]

I mean good by the consumer. Asking for another company to follow Microsoft in fucking the industry isn't good for us. I want healthy competition to drive the industry not bullshit practices that restricts a person from enjoying gaming. Witness was dropping bullshit and I called his opinion dumb so don't get snappy with me.

You completely misunderstood what I am saying. I am saying Sony to do it because I do not believe they wont. Their hands are tied now by publishers who hate the used games market who are in the position of power, and Sony needs any extra profit they can get. Having their used system work this way is good for the companies bottom line, especially since they had to pony up for the ram upgrade and Kaz is promising big profits. I don't want sony to do this, but I don't think they have a choice and its just inevitable. I hope I am wrong.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

EA's WiiU games doesn't have online pass.

EA Wii U games dont sell anyway

Plausible. But there is the other question; why would Sony do this?

Because they, like Microsoft, want a slice of the pie. It all comes down to money again

 

[kIdMuScLe]

Wait so the retailer ends up losing money if they sell the used Xbone games??? Lol

 

[GYNGA]

Seems fair.

Agree, seems totally fair. If you live in US, UK or some other big country. Europe (and other continents for sure) consists of many small countries and some of them barely have any game shops at all, especially networks which could make a contract with MS. In such case, you are stuck with your Xbone games forever.

 

[Opus Angelorum]

Plausible. But there is the other question; why would Sony do this?

Publisher demands.

 

[Zaph]

Microsoft cannot fix the price for what used games sell at. They can't arbitrarily say "okay retailer, sell for £35, but here's your £3.50, make yourself look pretty". The EU will be up their arse faster than you can say 'olive oil'.

What I imagine will happen is this - to use the Azure/Cloud/whatever activation system, retailers have to pay a fee to MS (probably fixed) and a fee to the publisher (probably variable based on factors like - how old the game is, what the RRP is, etc). The retailer then charges whatever they like for the used game to cover their costs.

Now look at it from the retailer's perspective - they're installing and paying MS for their Azure hardware/software thing, they're employing and training staff to use it, they're holding inventory and they're maintaining a physical presence. All that shit is expensive. Forget about the ethical consideration of used games for a second, from a pure business perspective that is a lot of overhead to sell a single, low priced unit.

What does this mean for the consumer? You're going to get fuck-all for your used games. I imagine many retailers won't even offer cash, only store credit, and you'll be lucky to get £5-£10 for even new releases because the margins are so slim.

 

[QaaQer]

That's not the end game. Businesses and most people will keep using their Office 2007/2010/2013 forever.

Ms tried to fuck with the licensing terms of 13, tying the $300 pay once price to a single computer, 100% non-transferable to any other machine. The only reason they changed that policy was because customers became VERY VERY angry. They want to drive people to the software as service model, and will push quite hard to get there, even to the point where they piss off customers. If people didn't push back against the office13 terms, MS would not have changed them.

 

[Moobabe]

My manager (GAME UK) - was telling people that there were "no confirmed plans" for pre-owned yet (even though we had the issue on MCV on the desk) - then pushing people to pre-order it by showing off the Call of Duty: Ghosts trailer.

What a JT.

He was also £8,000 down on stock take but that's OT

 

[RetroStu]

Comparisons to Honda aren't valid, imo. A car has continuous utility - when you have a car you can drive it, when you don't, you can't. Games are the same insomuch as when you have a game you can play it, and when you don't you cannot. But a lot of games are much more of an experience - you can experience it once, and for some games you'll want to experience it many more times, or play the mulitplayer. But some games you won't. And this doesn't mean they're bad games, they're just different games. So it's more like selling a book or a film - you can, effectively, get all you can from it, then sell it on. When you do this, you're not really sacrificing anything - unlike selling a car, where the benefit of owning a car disappears as soon as you sell it.

None of which is to defend this - which I think they're entirely entitled to do, though I think it's super dumb - but comparisons to cars and other purely utilitarian devices aren't really valid.

There are not many things in the world that you can't do what you want with once you have bought them. I know you're not really sticking up for them yourself but it really does grate on my head when people try to justify this.

 

[Starwolf_UK]

There is more to game retail then scanning a barcode, asking for disc insurance and opening a till. They have to buy the inventory upfront (taking on the risk of it not selling and/or making a loss) and keep it stocked and safe and ensure it is in working order. If anything perhaps Gamestop should deduct storage fees from Microsofts cut...

Imagine buying a CD from HMV and then being told you cannot sell it on ebay, even though you own it.

You can sell it on eBay, its just the person you sell it to is unable to use the CD for its intended purpose rendering the right to sell it pointless. First sale doctrine has not been violated but has been made useless as a consumer law in this context.

Microsoft cannot fix the price for what used games sell at. They can't arbitrarily say "okay retailer, sell for £35, but here's your £3.50, make yourself look pretty". The EU will be up their arse faster than you can say 'olive oil'.

What I imagine will happen is this - to use the Azure/Cloud/whatever activation system, retailers have to pay a fee to MS (probably fixed) and a fee to the publisher (probably variable based on factors like - how old the game is, what the RRP is, etc). The retailer then charges whatever they like for the used game to cover their costs.

I think the point is the fixed fee is £35 according that website MCV quoted. In that situation a retailer has little choice but to offer the person trading in £0.

 

[PhatSaqs]

I'd love to see the how some of you would react if you were into music composition. Look up native instruments resale for an idea of how shit works in that world. In some cases you can't resale a library at all and these can be quite expensive.