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MCV: Retail sources talk used Xbox One games, £35 for used game in UK [U2: Eurogamer]

DarkJC

Member
It's the private sales market that gets hurt the most by this, and that's what makes it unacceptable to me. I want to be able to sell / trade my games via Kijiji / Craigslist, I rarely ever sold my games to Gamestop (because the rates were typically horrendous for anything that wasn't brand new) or bought from them (because it was obvious they were marking them up huge for profit). This system completely blocks that in favor of propping up the Gamestop method of selling used games, simply because that's the only way they can get a cut of it.

The fact that people are okay with them chopping off the right to sell / trade your own games for other ones is depressing, but hey, paying to play online using your own internet connection to host the game is a thing too so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
 

TimeKillr

Member
LOL at selling used games or renting them being "legalized piracy".

Some people have really been brainwashed. Are used car lots hardware pirates? What about car rental services like Herz?

I am about sick of the entitlement that exists in the video game, movie, and music businesses at the highest level.

I won't quote myself (again) but you absolutely cannot compare the car industry to the game industry.

Car manufacturers have alternate revenue streams that are highly valid with used cars (parts and maintenance).

Renting games is different though - you need special licences to rent games that cost a whole lot more than just buying the game.
 
I don't give a fuck about retailers. This will kill private selling. That's what I care about, and I imagine most of those people upset here. I don't want Microsoft talking about retailers in response to this - I want them addressing the consumers directly who want to sell privately.
 

Principate

Saint Titanfall
I won't quote myself (again) but you absolutely cannot compare the car industry to the game industry.

Car manufacturers have alternate revenue streams that are highly valid with used cars (parts and maintenance).

Renting games is different though - you need special licences to rent games that cost a whole lot more than just buying the game.

How about with any form of physical media, music, books, movies the list goes go. Games didn't always cost this much, the industry went in this direction. If 3rd parties developed for the wii and it turned into a ps2 situation, game development costs wouldn't be as high. Publishers made bets and now we're paying for them.
 

ajjow

Member
What MS is doing is greedy as all hell.

While I *do* think that month-1 used games are a problem (they actually are a huge problem) and are actually worse than piracy (I'll explain), this method of doing things is certainly not the right way to go about it.

Essentially they're just attempting to own the market for used games so that they also make a cut. I hadn't thought of this before, strangely, but MS/Sony also lose when used game sales are made, because they get a cut of everything (through licences/etc). So it's only "normal" that MS is trying to make money off used sales, mostly because they are also losing money.

For the used games problem, here's my take on it (and this is from a developer point of view):

Most games are very top-heavy in sales. They'll sell most of their copies within the first month or so. Very few titles have legs - Nintendo's games being the huge exception here (casual games also have much longer legs than most titles but that's a different type of market).

A massive problem arises when GameStop (and others, I'm not pointing fingers) sells used games, within the first month, at 5$ off the price of the new copy. *THIS* is worse than piracy. Why?

When someone pirates a game, it's impossible to tell if it's a lost sale. Someone downloading a movie could have paid to see it, but also could have went without paying and seeing it. It's not 50/50 either. A lot of people download stuff compulsively. They pirate games for whatever reasons they want. They just want to see what the game is like, etc. This happens QUITE often. Pirated games are not lost sales in a lot of cases.

5$ off used games are, at a ratio exceeding 90%, a lost sale. Why? If you pick a used copy for 5$ off instead of paying full price, you were most likely willing to pay full price. Willingness to pay full price is what constitutes lost sales. It's a lost sale for the publisher/developer, not for the store, obviously (who make bank off it).

So there it is now - Microsoft and probably some of the world's biggest publishers have been complaining about it for a while. Their solution to combating used sales in the past have been online passes, which at least gives them an alternate revenue stream. So now they've probably managed to convince Microsoft that it would be good for them also to have some sort of system in place to control how much stuff gets into the used market and to make money off it.

One last thing I want to address is I seriously don't want to see more comparisons to the car industry, or the book industry, or the movie industry. (The movie industry is a bit closer, but also works very differently).

Used cars are not a problem because car companies make a lot of money off maintenance, parts, etc. Nobody can say "but cars!" because car companies have alternate revenue streams that are incredibly huge.

Books are a different beast altogether. The main difference is books don't have 12 million dollar budgets, so margins are much, MUCH higher on them. A book that sells for 40$ (and those exist quite a bit, especially when it's first-run hardcover versions) makes a ton of money for the book publisher (and hopefully the author). There is also the fact that there doesn't seem to be (in North America anyway - I know they exist in Japan) massive franchise stores that specialize in selling used books that came out the week before. The book industry also has an alternate revenue stream in the form of cheap softcover versions of the books, where they can still make money on the books when they come out on cheap paper, with really cheap covers, so the cost to produce the book is ridiculously low. Finally, books deteriorate much faster than digital media (disc-based media does deteriorate, but not that much) so it creates a need for new copies of books.

The movie industry is different in that it has 2 distinct products it offers: theater viewing and home viewing. Nobody complains about the fact that you pay to see a movie in a theater but can't resell the experience to someone else after the fact. These purchases are non refundable and non transferable. Home viewing has a used market that mostly deviates from video rental stores because the value of a movie on DVD or Blu-Ray really takes a massive nosedive after a short while, so it's not that worth it to sell them back to other people unless they're really rare stuff.

Every industry is unique, and comparing them is doing an apples to oranges comparison. It never really holds up.

All that being said, I do feel that MS is actually going WAY too far with this. Their whole system is centered around the concept of controlling the used market, then it looks like they tried to paint over it with features so that it wouldn't show too much. Bullshit like cloud processing (this is only actually useful for multiplayer stuff as they can now host game servers themselves, which is great because these can greatly scale - the problem before was that everything was P2P and not server-centric, so you had limits on how many players could be present in a game), TV stuff, etc. It's all a shiny coat of paint they hope will hide the nasty underneath.

Before people flame me to death, let it be known that I don't hate used games. I think that they are typically fantastic for lower income people, people on a budget, kids, whatever! Especially if you buy them once the game is no longer being produced (which happens quite fast!) and such it's really, REALLY not a problem. Person to person sales account for such low numbers that they don't count either - nobody cares about those. I personally try to always buy new, but that's because I prefer them new to used. It's personal preference really.

So your conclusion is that gamestop and other channels fuck up microsoft and the publisher?
Dont you think microsoft have lawyers to create a contract with this clause:

Gamestop can only sell xbox games if they agree to dont sell new released games in the first 6 months.

If gamestop sell used games in this period, they should pay a fee of 10 dollars per game sold.




Dont be naive. Mictosft is killing the consumer. Most used games are not sold by gamestop. They are sold by the consumer in ebay, amazon shop etc.

If a developer create a gane with 30 million dollars and cant create profit because of used games, it means the CEO must be fired. Used games has existed since 1980. Developers arent closing doors because of used games. Its because they dont have good ideas and waste lots of money making good
Graphics and big advertisement.

This has always happened since the NES dayd.
 

Ushae

Banned
So the seller gets screwed instead.

This will depend on MS. If they are fair they only take small royalty per re-sell based on a % of the transaction. It won't hurt their business since it would funnel/redirect all reselling business to the licensed retailer. Again if MS want the retailers to thrive they can make it happen. The only one that could get the shaft in all this is the retailer, it can go either way.

And you can be sure Sony will follow suite. Fast. It will keep their publishers very, very happy.
 
and it doesn't have to be this complicated in the first place.

Well it sounds like trading in to Gamestop doesn't change from how it does today to the consumer.

Trading directly between friends may be more complicated than handing them a disc though. No way around that since the box is digital first.

One nice thing with this system though is that even if you buy a physical disc, you never have to worry about losing them or breaking them. The only cases I've ever bought a used game is when I lost a game when I was moving, which won't happen now that all games are licensed to my account like Steam. Though, we still don't know the complete story here. For all we know you will be able to lend and sell games over XBL similar to how the Kindle handles digital books.
 
Microsoft has shown an ongoing disregard for European law. They just got fined a second time for failing to give users a choice for their webbrowsers.

Think about that for a moment, Microsoft fined over something as inconsequential as whether or not Explorer is installed on your computer. The EU commission will have a field day with something as monopolizing as controlling the market for used games.
 

gogogow

Member
I don't give a fuck about retailers. This will kill private selling. That's what I care about, and I imagine most of those people upset here. I don't want Microsoft talking about retailers in response to this - I want them addressing the consumers directly who want to sell privately.

One thing I don't understand is, when MS/Phil Harrison said that when a friend of yours borrow your copy to play on his own profile he has to buy the license for full price. If so, why not just buy a new disc from the store?
 
So the suggestion there is that a £45 new title couldn't be sold used for less than £40.50? Not sure how that can be legally justified, but I'm sure there's ways and means...
There is nothing illegal about that being the bottom line. Its just selling below that is a good way to go out of business. £35 activation leaves £5.50 to give the customer for trading in and in that scenario the retailer gets to make nothing or maybe a £3.50 commission for doing the reactivation...
 
That limits your playthrough somehow. What is to stop people from renting a game, beating it, and then returning? This would effectively allow people to go around the trouble of even having to purchase the game at all, which seems to be the purpose of the system that is being put in place.

People do this now and have done exactly as you say for decades, ever since game rentals have been around. I mean, that's kind of the point...so you don't have to pay full price and still enjoy most of if not the whole package. Returns and trade-ins work very similarly for many people. Look at Japan where there is no legal rental of games. They finish a game and then return them as pristine as possible for max trade/sell-in toward the next new game that they end up doing the same thing to, spending only a few dollars per title yet enjoying most if not all of that game. The system being finalized now is to ensure the industry gets a guaranteed cut of all revenue from used games.
 
One thing I don't understand is, when MS/Phil Harrison said that when a friend of yours borrow your copy to play on his own profile he has to buy the license for full price. If so, why not just buy a new disc from the store?
That's what they're trying to get you to do. He just worded it like they were doing you a favor and making it convienent that your friend doesn't have to go to the store to buy the game.
 
How is downloading your Xbox Live account and playing your disc at your friends house that hard? Why does everyone ignore that you can still do this, did they say you won't be able to play the game in this fashion as well? I've been an Xbox gamer since it's inception and this is pretty much standard procedure for me, or just taking my entire Xbox over there anyway for a LAN party.

That isn't going to change. The reason people are upset is because it seems once you buy a physical game the only thing you can do with it is keep it for yourself forever or sell it to a retailer that has partnered with Microsoft to allow the game to be traded in there.

You cannot sell it anywhere else, you cannot swap it with a friend, lend it to anyone or even give it away. They are things that may not apply to you, but they do to a lot of people and may apply to you at some point in the future.

It becomes something you don't quite own anymore. It's something you have permission to play on your account and something you have permission to sell to Microsoft sanctioned retailers only.
 

Subxero

Member
One thing I don't understand is, when MS/Phil Harrison said that when a friend of yours borrow your copy to play on his own profile he has to buy the license for full price. If so, why not just buy a new disc from the store?

That's exactly what they want your friend to do. Not only that they are using you and your disc as a mobile sales platform. Effectively screwing their customers and retail chains multiple times over
 

ascii42

Member
One thing I don't understand is, when MS/Phil Harrison said that when a friend of yours borrow your copy to play on his own profile he has to buy the license for full price. If so, why not just buy a new disc from the store?

I guess because if you've brought the game over to play on your account, the game is already on the hard drive. So when your friend wants to buy the game so he can play without you having to be signed in, he doesn't have to go to a store to buy it, or download it from the marketplace. The bits are already there, as Phil Harrison would say.
 
I'm failing to see any silver lining here. Basically:

- I will have fewer avenues available to sell my games. MS will dictate where I can and can not sell them.
- I will get less money for those games because of this draconian fee that MS is piling on top.
- I will pay more for pre-owned games because of this same fee.
- MS will effectively control pricing, not me, or the reseller.
- Rental market? Will there even be one?

This whole situation is nonsense.
 
People do this now and have done exactly as you say for decades, ever since game rentals have been around. I mean, that's kind of the point...so you don't have to pay full price and still enjoy most of if not the whole package. Returns and trade-ins work very similarly for many people. Look at Japan where there is no legal rentals of games. They finish a game and then return them as pristine as possible for max trade-in toward the next new game that they end up doing the same thing to, spending only a few dollars per title yet enjoying most if not all of that game. The system being finalized now is to ensure the industry gets a guaranteed cut of all revenue from used games.

I understand that. I was stating that this system would not eliminate that problem. Unless they intend to dramatically increase rental prices in order to guarantee that MS gets its cut and the rental company can stay in business. It is in MS and the retailers' best interests to just let game rental services die by leaving them out of these set-up entirely.
 

D4Danger

Unconfirmed Member
If most of Gamespot's (for example) money comes from the used game market I don't understand why they would give in to Microsoft here. Tell them to get fucked and refuse to stock their products.
 

ajjow

Member
I don't give a fuck about retailers. This will kill private selling. That's what I care about, and I imagine most of those people upset here. I don't want Microsoft talking about retailers in response to this - I want them addressing the consumers directly who want to sell privately.

You are right my friend. Most sales come from private selling. Retailers is big part of the used games market, but only a small part of it.

In Brazil it doesnt exist retailers of used games. Nobody buy used games in stores. In brazil used games only existe in private sales.

I believe that in the latin america is the same way. Actually, i believe that private sales are >>>>>>>> than retailers in the whole world.
 

LTWheels

Member
Think about that for a moment, Microsoft fined over something as inconsequential as whether or not Explorer is installed on your computer. The EU commission will have a field day with something as monopolizing as controlling the market for used games.

They are not monopolising the used games market as there are other console manufactures for which you can buy used games. Microsoft does not have an monopoly market share anyway.

IE was different, as Windows is virtually a monopoly.

Can people please stop bring up EU law speculations.
 

chubigans

y'all should be ashamed
If most of Gamespot's (for example) money comes from the used game market I don't understand why they would give in to Microsoft here. Tell them to get fucked and refuse to stock their products.

Microsoft wouldn't care. GS has to play along...a little money is better than no money, I guess.

That won't stop GS from pushing PS4 much more heavily if Sony doesn't have a used games ban.
 
One thing I don't understand is, when MS/Phil Harrison said that when a friend of yours borrow your copy to play on his own profile he has to buy the license for full price. If so, why not just buy a new disc from the store?

Simple.

When your friend gets your disc and puts it into his machine, it'll install the entire game on his HDD and will remain there unless he removes it. The discs themselves act purely as an installation mechanism, but if its already installed, then he doesn't need the disc - only the licence to play the game.
 
I won't quote myself (again) but you absolutely cannot compare the car industry to the game industry.

Car manufacturers have alternate revenue streams that are highly valid with used cars (parts and maintenance).

Renting games is different though - you need special licences to rent games that cost a whole lot more than just buying the game.

And whose fault is it that games don't have alternate revenue streams?
 

jdforge

Banned
For people wishing to sell the games they buy privately doesn't this policy infringe upon basic consumer rights of ownership?

As I understand it once you purchase a game you are deemed the owner and this can sell the game (much like a car) to a new buyer and at the same time transfer ownership to that person.

Maybe someone with legal knowledge knows more about this.
 

ReaperXL7

Member
Believe what you want. I'm saying I'd bet money and nothing Sony has said makes this impossible. It's optional and EA didn't drop Online Passes without a reason. Brace yourself.

All that means is that EA will require it, which is their choice as a publisher. I dont understand why people believe that a Japanese company would bow to a couple of American publishers in a way that would destroy their console in their own country.

Sony is likely going to allow the publisher to make their own choices on what they do about used games. Sony possibly wont require it on first party titles, most Japanese companies dont use DRM, and many Euro devs dont bother with it either. The idea that Sony will hurt themselves in the countries they are strongest in at the behest of EA is an interesting one to say the least.
 

Woggerman

Banned
If most of Gamespot's (for example) money comes from the used game market I don't understand why they would give in to Microsoft here. Tell them to get fucked and refuse to stock their products.

I'll tell you why.
1) they would have to stop selling 360 products. That loss of revenue would be staggering.
2) Microsoft pays them marketing dollars which would be lost.
 
I understand that. I was stating that this system would not eliminate that problem. Unless they intend to dramatically increase rental prices in order to guarantee that MS gets its cut and the rental company can stay in business. It is in MS and the retailers' best interests to just let game rental services die by leaving them out of these set-up entirely.

No, because rentals are also exposure for a lot of people and the sales/leases of these games to the outlet is money for the publisher as the numbers involved are quite high, even with the death of rental chains. Most people won't finish a game on a rental and there has been some numbers backing that up with follow-up sales of the same game rented. Controlling the rental market will work just as it does now for movies/television on rentals. Special pricing and license given to rental outlets but the versions offered may not be the full experience without it asking the player to spend for the whole enchilada.
 

ascii42

Member
All that means is that EA will require it, which is their choice as a publisher. I dont understand why people believe that a Japanese company would bow to a couple of American publishers in a way that would destroy their console in their own country.

Sony is likely going to allow the publisher to make their own choices on what they do about used games. Sony possibly wont require it on first party titles, most Japanese companies dont use DRM, and many Euro devs dont bother with it either. The idea that Sony will hurt themselves in the countries they are strongest in at the behest of EA is an interesting one to say the least.

I'd bet on Sony continuing online passes for their first party PS4 games. It's worked fine for them so far, and is a fairly reasonable concept. At least relatively.
 

ajjow

Member
That isn't going to change. The reason people are upset is because it seems once you buy a physical game the only thing you can do with it is keep it for yourself forever or sell it to a retailer that has partnered with Microsoft to allow the game to be traded in there.

You cannot sell it anywhere else, you cannot swap it with a friend, lend it to anyone or even give it away. They are things that may not apply to you, but they do to a lot of people and may apply to you at some point in the future.

It becomes something you don't quite own anymore. It's something you have permission to play on your account and something you have permission to sell to Microsoft sanctioned retailers only.


I dont understand how some people dont understand something simple as this.

You explained the situation perfectly.
 

D4Danger

Unconfirmed Member
Microsoft wouldn't care. GS has to play along...a little money is better than no money, I guess.

That won't stop GS from pushing PS4 much more heavily if Sony doesn't have a used games ban.

I think retailers hold all the cards here. Microsoft need them, they don't need Microsoft.

If Gamespot refused to stock Xbox products they could still fill a shop twice over with stuff from their competitors.

I just don't see what's in it for the retailer at this point. Microsoft are asking them to put their head in the noose and they're doing it with a big smile on their face.

I'll tell you why.
1) they would have to stop selling 360 products. That loss of revenue would be staggering.
2) Microsoft pays them marketing dollars which would be lost.

isn't the margin on consoles and games tiny for retailers? Somebody probably has numbers but I always remember it being close to nothing on new consoles.

marketing dollars I can see. But I would bet Sony and Nintendo would bite their hand off to get that space.
 
If most of Gamespot's (for example) money comes from the used game market I don't understand why they would give in to Microsoft here. Tell them to get fucked and refuse to stock their products.

I don't think they can't afford to do that to any of the major platform holders. At that point, they're simply going to lose out on future revenue altogether from that platform and the publishers aligned with it as consumers will be forced to go elsewhere to get new games, systems, and accessories. That will kill GS faster since their real remaining value is to stay relevant to the consumer by having new stock of the hottest stuff to trade toward. Remember, everyone takes trades now, and those who refuse to agree to the new system will lose out.
 

gogogow

Member
Simple.

When your friend gets your disc and puts it into his machine, it'll install the entire game on his HDD and will remain there unless he removes it. The discs themselves act purely as an installation mechanism, but if its already installed, then he doesn't need the disc - only the licence to play the game.

Since you can barely sell your games anymore, it's better to go full digital, for the people who wants a Xbone.
 

1-D_FTW

Member
All that means is that EA will require it, which is their choice as a publisher. I dont understand why people believe that a Japanese company would bow to a couple of American publishers in a way that would destroy their console in their own country.

Sony is likely going to allow the publisher to make their own choices on what they do about used games. Sony possibly wont require it on first party titles, most Japanese companies dont use DRM, and many Euro devs dont bother with it either. The idea that Sony will hurt themselves in the countries they are strongest in at the behest of EA is an interesting one to say the least.


I never said they would. I said it was optional and you could bet EA didn't drop Online Passes unless they planned to exploit that option. Then he said how could they possible do it without 24 hour phone home. And I explained how. Then he said if it was that easy, why didn't MS just go this route. Then I explained why Mattrick didn't mind being the heavy. Then he went another direction and I wised up and just realized he hated the idea and that's why the argument was happening. I don't like the idea, but it's going to be a massive upset if EA games aren't locked down on PS4 either.
 
I'm amazed that some people are ok with this. The consumer gets screwed over in this. Comparing it with Steam is ridiculous. How many people buy loads of games off steam for more than £10-£15. People always wait for their sales. If MS and retailers have a monopoly on the prices with no alternative for the consumer then we are screwed. Lets pray Sony doesn't follow suit or I can see us paying full price as well for 2,3,4 year old games.
 

ascii42

Member
Since you can barely sell your games anymore, it's better to go full digital, for the people who wants a Xbone.
True, only advantage of the disc is that you don't have to wait for a download. Would also be better for people with bandwidth limits.
 
All that means is that EA will require it, which is their choice as a publisher. I dont understand why people believe that a Japanese company would bow to a couple of American publishers in a way that would destroy their console in their own country.

Sony is likely going to allow the publisher to make their own choices on what they do about used games. Sony possibly wont require it on first party titles, most Japanese companies dont use DRM, and many Euro devs dont bother with it either. The idea that Sony will hurt themselves in the countries they are strongest in at the behest of EA is an interesting one to say the least.

You're probably right that the importance of the JP used market means they won't dictate a single draconian policy worldwide, but they could well require it (or at least, require it for more titles) in the US and not Japan.
 

Spongebob

Banned
This would make used games pointless...

No way Sony doesn't follow through with this. There simply can't be a game price discrepancy between platforms.
 
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