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Bungie Weekly Update 9/28/07 - 640p or How they did their lighting

mood

Member
http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?type=topnews&cid=12821

Finally Fighting

Well. It’s out and being played right now by hundreds of thousands of people, in fact by the time you read this, I’m probably on my way home to play Team Slayer with New001 and Abe Froman all weekend, sorry for the post game trash talk kids, it’s hard to contain myself. Bungie is thrilled and flattered by how many people have eaten up the meal that is Halo 3, and it’s caused minimal tummyaches.

Bellyaching

A bunch of folks are concerned about their Achievements and Halo 3. It certainly seems that some are tougher to unlock than others -- Overkill in Lone Wolves is the bane of my petty existence – but others, like Headshot Honcho and Marathon Man seem to require a bit of prodding in order to make that “Achievement Unlocked” toast pop up on your display.

Headshot Honcho’s achievement text is misleading, because last weekend, I too, was wondering what I needed to do to unlock the Achievement, I was getting my usual 95% headshots in Campaign and unlocking precisely zero Achievements. I poked around with testers here and they confirmed that you could get the achievement in Campaign, you just have to get 10 headshots with the Long Rifle.

This has already been covered over at the Ongoing Investigations FAQ.

Who’s your Daddy?

Sketch, Frank and I’s gamertags are all pretty well-known and we all get a lot of Friend Requests and messages as is, but the influx of “can you help me find <insert any skull here>?” is incredible. We’re thrilled you guys are hunting for Skulls and hopefully using them to replay Campaign with scoring on, but part of the fun is finding them and part of the fun here at Bungie is watching you try and find them.

So no, we appreciate the inquiry but we’re not going to help you find them.

Just a reminder, too. Our Friend’s lists are full of folks that we’re, for the most part, friends with in Real Life, so we don’t have any room

Matchmaking Whoaz

So, we’re perfectly aware that some folks might be unfamiliar with the gametypes that are appearing in the playlists, so here’s a brief treatment of some of the different gametypes.

One-sided VIP: This gametype appears in Objective and Skirmish based hoppers. Because it is “One-sided VIP,” there is a an offensive team and a defensive team. The defensive team’s job is to protect the VIP and the offense is tasked with eliminating the VIP.

Territories: This round-based game places five capture points on the field of play. The offense has a certain amount of time to capture as many as possible and then the two teams switch sides. Once a territory is captured, it does not revert to an uncaptured state in a given round.

Land Grab: Also round-based, there aren’t “offensive” or “defensive” sides in Land Grab. The five territories can be captured by either team, once captured the capture points cannot revert. At the end of all of the rounds, the ‘grabs are totaled up. Here's Frankie to finish this week's fight:

You Owe me 80p!

One item making the interwebs rounds this week was the scandalous revelation that Halo 3 runs at “640p” which isn’t even technically a resolution. However, the interweb detectives did notice that Halo 3’s vertical resolution, when captured from a frame buffer, is indeed 640 pixels. So what gives? Did we short change you 80 pixels?

Naturally it’s more complicated than that. In fact, you could argue we gave you 1280 pixels of vertical resolution, since Halo 3 uses not one, but two frame buffers – both of which render at 1152x640 pixels. The reason we chose this slightly unorthodox resolution and this very complex use of two buffers is simple enough to see – lighting. We wanted to preserve as much dynamic range as possible – so we use one for the high dynamic range and one for the low dynamic range values. Both are combined to create the finished on screen image.

This ability to display a full range of HDR, combined with our advanced lighting, material and postprocessing engine, gives our scenes, large and small, a compelling, convincing and ultimately “real” feeling, and at a steady and smooth frame rate, which in the end was far more important to us than the ability to display a few extra pixels. Making this decision simpler still is the fact that the 360 scales the
“almost-720p” image effortlessly all the way up to 1080p if you so desire.

In fact, if you do a comparison shot between the native 1152x640 image and the scaled 1280x720, it’s practically impossible to discern the difference. We would ignore it entirely were it not for the internet’s propensity for drama where none exists. In fact the reason we haven’t mentioned this before in weekly updates, is the simple fact that it would have distracted conversation away from more important aspects of the game, and given tinfoil hats some new gristle to chew on as they catalogued their toenail clippings.


Home at Last

We've all been moving around the US and the world, attending the various Halo 3 launch events, from Japan, to London, to Miami and New York to right here in Seattle (Kirkland, really). We had a blast, although I have a flu, a broken wrist and I haven't slept in two weeks. And yet that's nothing compared to the amount of hard work, dedication and perfectionism shown by the Bungie team and our partners at Microsoft marketing, PR and our various friends and agencies. A big shoutout to Jason Sudeikis, Miguel, Chingy, Bobby V, Zac Efron, James Lemon, Claude, and millions more.

Those guys worked (or partied) their butts off to ensure one of the biggest video game launches ever, and a massive success. There are teething troubles to be sure, with scratched disks, matchmaking shuffles, UI queries, Bnet hang ups and more, but rest assured we will be with you all the way to fix this stuff as and when it pops up and make sure your Halo experience is the best it can possibly be.

Writing this for the new, improved Bnet is an honor in itself, and right now Luke, Sketch and I are all heading home to play you guys on Xbox Live. Look out for us. We're pretty easy to spot. we'll be on all day in all likelihood, but watch out for Bungie guys of various disciplines between 5 and 9pm. Look for the Bungie logo beside their name and remember that you shouldn't smacktalk a Ninja.
 

BeEatNU

WORLDSTAAAAAAR
people shouldn't be bitching in the first place, 360 was gonna scale it anyways. I still like the game how it looks
 
MMaRsu said:
No need for a new thread.
there's already a bungie update thread?

Sho_Nuff82 said:
It's going to be hard to enjoy the game now that I know it's missing that extra 80p.
but OMFG the difference between 1152x640 and 1280x720 is 184,320 pixels, or 20% of the total pixels!!!

and almost nobody noticed they were gone
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
I'm glad they addressed it, but, like, it doesn't matter.

Game rox. Congrats Bungie. Can't wait to get back online after I do all my homework.
 
Fucking Internet geek parasites whining about the goddamn HD or not HD, who gives a fucking SHIT. Game is tits. End of story.
 

Sanjay

Member
i dont get it? so they decided to use 640p so the hdr would look better? but pc games use hdr at any resultion. or is i missing something here.
 

drohne

hyperbolically metafictive
In fact, you could argue we gave you 1280 pixels of vertical resolution, since Halo 3 uses not one, but two frame buffers – both of which render at 1152x640 pixels.

omgwtf :lol

maybe bungie should have let one of their graphics people address this instead of sending luke to die
 

f@luS

More than a member.
wow, i guess they didnt expected it to be discovered that fast, and trying to damage control it a bit.
 

Crushed

Fry Daddy
Bungie said:
In fact, you could argue we gave you 1280 pixels of vertical resolution, since Halo 3 uses not one, but two frame buffers – both of which render at 1152x640 pixels.

bell_web.jpg


"Twice as smooth, twice as fast, twice as many lines of vertical resolution."
 

f@luS

More than a member.
mood said:
Except theres no damage ;)
having the biggest 360game with that many technical issues, is a big thing at least for me errrr. Just played 4hours @ 4 coop , my head hurt a bit (framerate + picture quality)
This just show how poor the engine is , even if sometimes the game IS Beautiful (thx lightning), framerate + lower rez + picture quality , is really a big deal imho
 

soco

Member
f@luS said:
having the biggest 360game with that many technical issues, is a big thing at least for me errrr. Just played 4hours @ 4 coop , my head hurt a bit (framerate + picture quality)
This just show how poor the engine is , even if sometimes the game IS Beautiful (thx lightning), framerate + lower rez + picture quality , is really a big deal imho

i'm missing the bad picture quality here. on my tv it's one of the most beautiful games in a very long time. apart from a few locations the framerate holds up well.
 

RSTEIN

Comics, serious business!
f@luS said:
having the biggest 360game with that many technical issues, is a big thing at least for me errrr. Just played 4hours @ 4 coop , my head hurt a bit (framerate + picture quality)
This just show how poor the engine is , even if sometimes the game IS Beautiful (thx lightning), framerate + lower rez + picture quality , is really a big deal imho

You just sold all your furniture. You've burned all your bridges. You're contemplating suicide.

THAT'S RIGHT YOU FUCKING TROLL YOU JUST HIT ROCK BOTTOM
 

Bebpo

Banned
Linkup said:
Thought there was a policy against rendering below 720p?

Didn't THP8 also render below 720p?

PGR3 rendered at like 540p IIRC. It was the first game to fuel the fire.


Tbh, I don't think ANYONE should be aiming for 1080p this gen as these games are showing us that just pulling off 720p/30fps with great graphic quality (AA, HDR, etc...) takes a fucking miracle.
 
Halo 2 Quasi-HD

RSTEIN said:
You just sold all your furniture. You've burned all your bridges. You're contemplating suicide.

THAT'S RIGHT YOU FUCKING TROLL YOU JUST HIT ROCK BOTTOM
Haha, I was reading thread in reverse and I scrolled up to find that the guy you were quoting was on my ignore list.
 

Kaako

Felium Defensor
f@luS said:
having the biggest 360game with that many technical issues, is a big thing at least for me errrr. Just played 4hours @ 4 coop , my head hurt a bit (framerate + picture quality)
This just show how poor the engine is , even if sometimes the game IS Beautiful (thx lightning), framerate + lower rez + picture quality , is really a big deal imho

*Salutes F@luS for pulling a Leeeeroy Jenkinssss and rushing in the line of fire*

R.I.P 9-28-07





jkjk
 

f@luS

More than a member.
RSTEIN said:
You just sold all your furniture. You've burned all your bridges. You're contemplating suicide.

THAT'S RIGHT YOU FUCKING TROLL YOU JUST HIT ROCK BOTTOM
youre 10 years old.
 

Joe Molotov

Member
The Faceless Master said:
but OMFG the difference between 1152x640 and 1280x720 is 184,320 pixels, or 20% of the total pixels!!!

Anything under 650p is shite, and even that's pushing it!

730 lines of vertical resolution or more for me, or I don't play.
 
Bebpo said:
Tbh, I don't think ANYONE should be aiming for 1080p this gen as these games are showing us that just pulling off 720p/30fps with great graphic quality (AA, HDR, etc...) takes a fucking miracle.

Well, you gotta consider a lot of factors. Halo 3 has big outdoor environments with long draw distances.

Virtua Tennis and (supposedly) NHL 2K8 are in real 1080p. It is is easier for those games since they are based in small arenas with limited numbers of players & NPCs. (Just 2 or 4 main characters in Tennis plus the ball.)
 

ypo

Member
"Making this decision simpler still is the fact that the 360 scales the
“almost-720p” image effortlessly all the way up to 1080p if you so desire."

Should've just made it 480P and let the 360 scales it effortlessly all the way up the 1080P. That way at least the game could've maintained a steady 30fps.
 

mood

Member
f@luS said:
having the biggest 360game with that many technical issues, is a big thing at least for me errrr. Just played 4hours @ 4 coop , my head hurt a bit (framerate + picture quality)
This just show how poor the engine is , even if sometimes the game IS Beautiful (thx lightning), framerate + lower rez + picture quality , is really a big deal imho


Dont get what you mean by picture quality or the framerate as it looks and runs great for me. The "lower rez" is so insignificant that no one really cares outside of a few message boards. Don't see how this is a big deal at all, and it definitely doesn't matter to the majority of people buying the game.
 

Draft

Member
ypo said:
"Making this decision simpler still is the fact that the 360 scales the
“almost-720p” image effortlessly all the way up to 1080p if you so desire."

Should've just made it 480P and let the 360 scales it effortlessly all the way up the 1080P. That way at least the game could've maintained a steady 30fps.
HEY OH :lol Too true, shit aim high get that 60fps thing going on.

I wish people could just be real and admit it's disappointing that the game's got some technical issues. Don't damage control inadequacy!
 
What kills me is that they tell you that even with the game scaled to 1280 x 720, it still looks like it's at 640 and that scaling doesn't make it look any better.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
soco said:
i'm missing the bad picture quality here. on my tv it's one of the most beautiful games in a very long time. apart from a few locations the framerate holds up well.
It's not that the picture is bad - it's not. The visuals in Halo 3 are consistently excellent, and often quite spectacular (I'm working through some of the huge vehicular encounters in the later levels). It's the principle of the thing - it's 640p. That simple fact will be a standard trolling point for years to come.

A lot of people, myself included, thought the E3 trailer looked slightly washed out, and there was speculation then that this was the reason. In game, the visuals don't have that look (at least, not on my set) and I'd never have guessed that this was not running native. But the game isn't perfect, visually, especially in the aliasing area. But I have yet to play a next-gen game with perfect visuals. Oblivion had very close draw-in of details, Crackdown had persistence issues, Gears of War and Bioshock both have times when the graphics are seen loading in layers. Halo 3 has aliasing, and now this scaling "scandal". But they all offered trade offs, in terms of detail (Gears, Bioshock) and scope (Oblivion, Crackdown, Halo 3) and lighting (Halo 3). They're all great looking games, that creak around the seams a little.
 

DCharlie

Banned
Should've just made it 480P and let the 360 scales it effortlessly all the way up the 1080P. That way at least the game could've maintained a steady 30fps.

then it could REALLY have been Halo 2 in HD!
OH WAIT, you said steady 30fps!

nyuk nyuk nyuk.
 

Doc Evils

Member
ypo said:
"Making this decision simpler still is the fact that the 360 scales the
&#8220;almost-720p&#8221; image effortlessly all the way up to 1080p if you so desire."

Should've just made it 480P and let the 360 scales it effortlessly all the way up the 1080P. That way at least the game could've maintained a steady 30fps.

:lol
 

Cubsfan23

Banned
Why is the "how many people online" different on bungie.net compared to the number shown in the matchmaking lobby? Is Bungie.Net for America only?
 
Making this decision simpler still is the fact that the 360 scales the
“almost-720p” image effortlessly
all the way up to 1080p if you so desire.

In fact, if you do a comparison shot between the native 1152x640 image and the scaled 1280x720, it’s practically impossible to discern the difference. We would ignore it entirely were it not for the internet’s propensity for drama where none exists. In fact the reason we haven’t mentioned this before in weekly updates, is the simple fact that it would have distracted conversation away from more important aspects of the game, and given tinfoil hats some new gristle to chew on as they catalogued their toenail clippings.

If you resize (or upscale, same thing) a lo-res JPG picture to full-screen on a 1080p display, it doesn't make it high resolution, and if you upscale (or resize, same thing) a 640p signal to full-screen on a 1080p display, it doesn't change the fact that it's still 640p.

Of course there's no discernable difference between the native 1152x640 and the scaled 1280x720 image. THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE ARE PISSED OFF ABOUT. We must be in bizzaro land here because the Sony Defense Force posting about this situation is MUCH more truthful than this horrible horrible spin. :lol

Tin foil hats? People are promised an HD gaming experience on the 360 and are bitching when it's not quite HD and that makes them tin-foil hat wearing, toenail clipping cataloguing loonies?
 

f@luS

More than a member.
mood said:
Dont get what you mean by picture quality or the framerate as it looks and runs great for me. The "lower rez" is so insignificant that no one really cares outside of a few message boards. Don't see how this is a big deal at all, and it definitely doesn't matter to the majority of people buying the game.
Picture quality = clean or not. Halo 3 is far from clean, really.
Just finished the game on legendary today, and seriously. Just take level 8 (or 9 , the one u fight 2 **** at the same time)
EVERY single piece of grass , plant , is "growing" in front of your eyes each step ure making. I couldnt believe that seriously. I wont bother any thread anymore with that, and i really love the game, but technically speaking , this is a huge letdown for me , clipping/popup , aliasing , fake HD (20% missing, so im going through 2 upscales then , one xbox, on my tv doing 720=>768), framerate issues, modelling , seriously ffs.


TerryLee81 said:
99% probably aren't able to see the difference between 720p and 640p upscaled to 720p on their TVs.
Let me see...

99% cant see difference between 30 and 60 fps
-Almost all games are 30fps now : CHECK

99% cant see the diff between 640p and 720 p:
-Cant wait to have all games runing at 30fps@Lower than 720p.

At this rate, in 5 years, were going back to SD with GTA like framerate
 
i'm OUTRAGED that it isn't really 720p. from now on as i play MP i will NEVER be able too get this revelation out of my mind, thus resulting in me ending up as a worse player than i already am!

FUCK YOU BUNGIE!
 
ypo said:
Should've just made it 480P and let the 360 scales it effortlessly all the way up the 1080P. That way at least the game could've maintained a steady 30fps.

Hell, they should have done it at 320x240!! The 360 has the power to upscale it ALL THE WAY UP TO 1080p, so what's the problem? :lol :lol :lol
 
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