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Gears 3's budget was $48-$60 million, Epic explains business shift & MS disagreements

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
From the new Polygon article: http://www.polygon.com/a/epic-4-0

There's a ton more at the link on both this topic and other things.

Polygon said:
...

"The very first Gears of War game cost $12 million to develop, and it made about $100 million in revenue," he says. "It was very profitable."

But those profits continued to shrink as the cost to make each proceeding game went up and the revenue generally didn’t.

"By the end of the cycle, Gears of War 3 cost about four or five times more than the original to make," he says. "The profit was shrinking and shrinking. We calculated that, if we built Gears of War 4, the budget would have been well over $100 million, and if it was a huge success, we could break even. Anything less could put us out of business.

"That’s what caused us to move and change business models."

It wasn’t just Gears 4 that pushed that change; it was also issues that arose while working on Gears of War: Judgment.

"When we released Gears of War: Judgment, a bunch of community players were complaining about all the multiplayer levels we created. We realized that, you know, there are some problems with this, we should rework it, create a bunch of new content and release multiplayer around a new game just like we did in the project that was the genesis of Unreal Tournament," Sweeney says. "We had all these plans to do this, and so we went to Microsoft and we said, ‘Hey, we want to do this.’ And they said ‘No, you don't want to do that.’

"We weren't asking them for money, but you know as our publisher and proprietor of Xbox, it didn't fit into their business plans and so they said no. That made me realize very clearly the risk of having a publisher or anybody standing between game developers and gamers — and how toxic and destructive that process could be to the health of a game and its community."


...
As these things lined up, the decision to change the company began to grow out of a deep sense of foreboding.

"I would describe it as seeing the writing on the wall," Sweeney says. "There was an increasing realization that the old model wasn’t working anymore and that the new model was looking increasingly like the way to go."

Sweeney describes the new model as the one embraced by Valve with its digital distribution and early access games and by Riot Games with League of Legends' take on the ever-evolving games as a service platform.
 

Crv756

Banned
Really cool article, love insights into the development, economics and conflict of interest between publisher and developer.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Why not just keep a smaller scale for the games? It was the AAA bloat at work which was prevalent at that time which made them feel like bigger always equals better, but a lot of that scale isn't necessary to create a good experience.
 

Peterthumpa

Member
What business shift, specifically? Isn't Gears 4 still exclusive and probably still the most expensive up to now?
 

Alucrid

Banned
‘Hey, we want to do this.’ And they said ‘No, you don't want to do that.’

well i guess microsoft has some pretty good experience with this happening to them

What business shift, specifically? Isn't Gears 4 still exclusive and probably still the most expensive up to now?

gears 4 is made by microsoft (black tusk), not epic. epic is talking about paragon / UT probably
 

aBarreras

Member
yeah, Judgment really demonstrate that Epic was saving money and wanted to cash in with the Gears community, i liked Judgment but it was really bare bones in content and it didnt had any dlc worth purchasing.

im very glad that MS bought the Gears IP, because Epic didnt care for it anymore.
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
What business shift, specifically? Isn't Gears 4 still exclusive and probably still the most expensive up to now?

They're making free 2 play service games.

Epic's projects are Paragon, Fortnite, and Spyjinx, whereas Gears of War was sold to Microsoft and developed by them in Canada.
 
What business shift, specifically? Isn't Gears 4 still exclusive and probably still the most expensive up to now?

Epic is no longer in charge of Gears of War, they have no involvement in 4 or even that Ultimate Edition. They sold the IP to MS.

...that business shift.
 

phant0m

Member
Call me curious, but is there any way to slow down or stop the AAA bloat any time soon?

I'm guessing the cause of this is teams getting huge and ad/marketing budget. I don't see how else Gears 1 was 12 million and 3 was 4x-5x that. They're similar in size, scope and production value.
 

MacTag

Banned
I always understood the stated budget for Gears 1 to be somewhat under reported as that game was developed in tandem with UE3 and some of the costs absorbed by the latter? Not to say development budgets didn't balloon with sequels but even at the time when Epic claimed Gears only cost around $10m to make it seemed suspect when other AAA games were already demanding twice or more.
 

Kusagari

Member
It's pretty interesting to me that Epic was shouldering so much of the load financially.

Would have thought otherwise considering how important the franchise is to MS.
 

gypsygib

Member
Funny, my enjoyment of the games is inversely correlated with each respective budget budget.

Gears 1 >> Gears 2 >>>>>>>>>>>Gears 3.

Judgement turned me off the series completely.
 

Mupod

Member
You know the world's gone crazy when Gears of War isn't successful enough to support its own development.

UT is shaping up very nicely at least, can't complain about this new direction in that case.
 
Did Epic want to make a Gears MP only game, or was it going to be something completely different? Hard to tell from the article. If they were just going to make a Gears MP game I would say MS absolutely made the right choice.
 
Damn...quite unsurprising though considering how Judgement turned out. Crazy though to see how much development costs can rise even within a generation, not just between console generations.
 

Harp

Member
Am I the only one not seeing a 5x the game between gears one and gears three? The games where graphicly better and did improve. But it was at about the pace you would expect over an 6 year period. Epic are the ones that keep saying how much games cost but never really say why. All the games were about the same length and are very similar as far as events in the game. Is this a result of epic just cashing out on gamers?
 
This is my question too, why do these games cost so much?

Anybody?
Asset generation mostly, I would think. Making all the areas for a linear campaign shooter has to be a lot more work than a bunch of self contained MP maps (even if there is some overlap.)
 
Asset generation mostly, I would think. Making all the areas for a linear campaign shooter has to be a lot more work than a bunch of self contained MP maps (even if there is some overlap.)

The locations in 3 are a lot more varied, but still... that's a lotttt more money.
 

Spman2099

Member
I find this attitude to be incredibly funny.

"We were dumping more money into our games and seeing the same returns... So we switched the business model!"

No, you dummies, you stop pouring unnecessary amounts of money into each game. That is the solution. Budgeting. From Software has shown us that the best games are made with relatively humble budgets. Maybe competent management is what you guys REALLY need.
 

IvanJ

Banned
Good read. And I understand the shift to a different business model.

They did well to cash Gears in, because the current state of XOne and the way its exclusives sell would have definitely sunk them had they pursued it further.
Perhaps they could have made money by going multiplat, but that would have been a huge risk in 2013.
 
I find this attitude to be incredibly funny.

"We were dumping more money into our games and seeing the same returns... So we switched the business model!"

No, you dummies, you stop pouring unnecessary amounts of money into each game. That is the solution. Budgeting. From Software has shown us that the best games are made with relatively humble budgets. Maybe competent management is what you guys REALLY need.

You say with literally zero knowledge of their company...
 

Maztorre

Member
yeah, Judgment really demonstrate that Epic was saving money and wanted to cash in with the Gears community, i liked Judgment but it was really bare bones in content and it didnt had any dlc worth purchasing.

im very glad that MS bought the Gears IP, because Epic didnt care for it anymore.

Did you even read the article? Epic literally offered to rework the multiplayer at their own expense in response to the community and MS did not allow it.
 

Tain

Member
I'd be interested in seeing what they could do right now with 12 million dollars.

I bet it'd be pretty dope.
 

Memento

Member
I wonder how much did Uncharted 3 cost. If we knew it would be a great way of analyzing the budget treatment between Sony and Microsoft.
 

Nere

Member
Asset generation mostly, I would think. Making all the areas for a linear campaign shooter has to be a lot more work than a bunch of self contained MP maps (even if there is some overlap.)

But on the contrary Gears of War 2 and 3 reuse some of the assets, like weapons, monsters, vehicles, characters, so the cost should be lower. All sequels reuse assets because some things carry over from the original.
 

Eusis

Member
I'm guessing the cause of this is teams getting huge and ad/marketing budget. I don't see how else Gears 1 was 12 million and 3 was 4x-5x that. They're similar in size, scope and production value.
Yeah, and it's what makes AAA gaming frustrating. We're seeing games that are profitable at a lower budget balloon up because of this crap, or pressure to follow that crap. We don't see any tangible benefit to match that budget on our ends, some of it may be not understanding game development but that still seems extreme for something that didn't turn into a big open world thing.
 

TaterTots

Banned
So.......EPIC wanted to create a multiplayer Gears game to make up for Judgement and MS said no?

That's about right.
 
I find this attitude to be incredibly funny.

"We were dumping more money into our games and seeing the same returns... So we switched the business model!"

No, you dummies, you stop pouring unnecessary amounts of money into each game. That is the solution. Budgeting. From Software has shown us that the best games are made with relatively humble budgets. Maybe competent management is what you guys REALLY need.

I'm willing to bet quite a bit that DS3 cost more to develop than DS1 or DS2.
 

Harp

Member
Seems like they were just cashing out on Microsoft and gamers. It shouldn't cost 5x more to have a different and higher quality textures. As anyone that has ever had a job knows being very good at your jobs may get you a lityle bit more money but does not equate 5x more money.
 

AmyS

Member
Also this:

UotC4rH.jpg


Microsoft didn't give Epic nearly as much performance as they expected for running Unreal Engine 4 on console. This made even the PC version of the engine suffer a major downgrade (the lighting method).

Sometimes less power means more work trying to make a impressive new game. I'm not saying this was the reason for Epic's decision, just another thing Epic couldn't be happy about with Microsoft in general. And to be fair, PS4 isn't much better.
 

s_mirage

Member
Count me in as another who doesn't understand the need for ballooing budgets. Are no savings made through maturing tools and workflow, and therefore increased efficiency? I can understand that the budget increased, but to five times that of the original? Seriously?
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Call me curious, but is there any way to slow down or stop the AAA bloat any time soon?

We've already seen it with multiple Japanese attempts at scaled back AA projects and lower tier AAA games.

last gen, they were pressured to make shit like RE6 where you have to have 3 campaigns all fully rendered and filled with explosions catering to the lowest common demonstrator, and now we have a RE2 remake coming along that apes the style of the earlier games

Microsoft didn't give Epic nearly as much performance as they expected for running Unreal Engine 4 on console. This made even the PC version of the engine suffer a major downgrade (the lighting method).

Sometimes less power means more work trying to make a impressive new game. I'm not saying this was the reason for Epic's decision, just another thing Epic couldn't be happy about with Microsoft in general. And to be fair, PS4 isn't much better.

That's not an excuse for AAA rising budgets or Epic's priorities at the time, that is trying to pass blame away from marketing and industry trends. Little to do at all with hardware when you have a contained experience you want to make.

Dead Space 1 and such cost far less to make than Dead Space 2 and 3 just by nature of the AAA bloat taking over, trying to make even more money with more money invested, which isn't going to usually pan out due to the rising costs
 
damn.

speaking of gears, i think the graphics for the ultimate edition are pretty damn dope. interested to see how the GoW4 final product will pan out.
 

Renekton

Member
"That whole era ended as PC piracy impacted the market and made single-player campaign games impossible," he says. "We estimated at one point that, for every game we sold, four copies were pirated."

And so Epic shifted again, this time to the console market with the help of Microsoft and an exclusive publishing deal. Gears of War started out as a tremendous success for everyone involved, Sweeney says.
Man before Steam took off big time, it was really the dark ages.
 
We've already seen it with multiple Japanese attempts at scaled back AA projects and lower tier AAA games.

last gen, they were pressured to make shit like RE6 where you have to have 3 campaigns all fully rendered and filled with explosions catering to the lowest common demonstrator, and now we have a RE2 remake coming along that apes the style of the earlier games

Didn't Capcom say the RE2 remake will play like a better version of 6?

Capcom had their own unique problems. Square is still banking on AAA.
 
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