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"A despot in disguise: one man’s mission to rip up democracy" - George Monbiot

SomTervo

Member
This was published on The Guardian a couple of weeks back and I couldn't find a thread on it. Pretty terrifying stuff.

Basically the article is a book review of Democracy in Chains: The Deep History of the Radical Right's Stealth Plan for America by Nancy MacLean.

The book is largely based on the writings by Nobel Prize for Economics winner James Buchannan. She found his writings and notes posthumously in his estate (or something).

Basically we have this guy to thank for the stealthy rise of totalitarian capitalism and the cunning way it has been pulling the rug out from under democracy and welfare for decades.

important update: There's a nice counter point article from Vox at the bottom of the OP. Basically saying J Buchanan never really intended or explicitly said any of this. Which is v interesting.

[James Buchanan] argued that a society could not be considered free unless every citizen has the right to veto its decisions. What he meant by this was that no one should be taxed against their will. But the rich were being exploited by people who use their votes to demand money that others have earned, through involuntary taxes to support public spending and welfare. Allowing workers to form trade unions and imposing graduated income taxes were forms of “differential or discriminatory legislation” against the owners of capital.

Any clash between “freedom” (allowing the rich to do as they wish) and democracy should be resolved in favour of freedom. In his book The Limits of Liberty, he noted that “despotism may be the only organisational alternative to the political structure that we observe.” Despotism in defence of freedom.

His prescription was a “constitutional revolution”: creating irrevocable restraints to limit democratic choice. Sponsored throughout his working life by wealthy foundations, billionaires and corporations, he developed a theoretical account of what this constitutional revolution would look like, and a strategy for implementing it.

Super dark bit:

The papers Nancy MacLean discovered show that Buchanan saw stealth as crucial. He told his collaborators that “conspiratorial secrecy is at all times essential”. Instead of revealing their ultimate destination, they would proceed by incremental steps. For example, in seeking to destroy the social security system, they would claim to be saving it, arguing that it would fail without a series of radical “reforms”. (The same argument is used by those attacking the NHS). Gradually they would build a “counter-intelligentsia”, allied to a “vast network of political power” that would become the new establishment.

Through the network of thinktanks that Koch and other billionaires have sponsored, through their transformation of the Republican party, and the hundreds of millions they have poured into state congressional and judicial races, through the mass colonisation of Trump’s administration by members of this network and lethally effective campaigns against everything from public health to action on climate change, it would be fair to say that Buchanan’s vision is maturing in the US.

But not just there. Reading this book felt like a demisting of the window through which I see British politics. The bonfire of regulations highlighted by the Grenfell Tower disaster, the destruction of state architecture through austerity, the budgeting rules, the dismantling of public services, tuition fees and the control of schools: all these measures follow Buchanan’s programme to the letter. I wonder how many people are aware that David Cameron’s free schools project stands in a tradition designed to hamper racial desegregation in the American south.

Give in to constitutional revolution if old

edit: strong counterpoint from Vox

https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/20...s-james-buchanan-intellectual-history-maclean

A deep, historical study of public choice would be welcome, and Buchanan’s role in the development of the thought and organizational infrastructure of the right has generally been overlooked. Unfortunately, the book is an example of precisely the kind of work on the right that we do not need, and the intellectuals of the left who have praised it are doing their side no favors.

Thanks kirblar
 

DavidDesu

Member
Revolution time.

Well their plans seem to be working pretty well. The only bump in the road will be global climate change and the huge impact it will have on the world, and these very people being the ones who have always told us it's nonsense. Hopefully the backlash will be severe.

They could get away with the banks collapsing and just hitting the reset button. There's no reset button to literal cities disappearing under flood waters year in year out, mass emigration due to no water and literally deadly heat and humidity, and so on. It was these cunts from the right, from the super rich and powerful who kept telling us it was all a fantasy so they could keep engorging themselves.

It's funny just how mental their world view is. They have enough wealth that even moderately spreading it around could elevate A LOT more people into incredibly comfortable lifestyles. What can one man do with billions of dollars? It basically seems like literally a mental illness with these rich and powerful types. I can't see why they wouldn't want to live in a world where far more of us live very happy lives without struggle. They'd have a lot more potential friends in the world and it would be a happier place for the lot of us...


Why can't Trump's crazy supporters be into THIS conspiracy theory, the real shit that's going on under our noses (but in plain enough sight we've got no one else to blame)??? The true definition of brainwashed. Absolute sheep.
 

SomTervo

Member
The only bump in the road will be global climate change and the huge impact it will have on the world, and these very people being the ones who have always told us it's nonsense. Hopefully the backlash will be severe.

They could get away with the banks collapsing and just hitting the reset button. There's no reset button to literal cities disappearing under flood waters year in year out, mass emigration due to no water and literally deadly heat and humidity, and so on. It was these cunts from the right, from the super rich and powerful who kept telling us it was all a fantasy so they could keep engorging themselves.

Indeed, I think the only way a 'revolution' will happen at the necessary scale in today's world would be once we lose cities to climate change and the displaced populations ("climate refugees" - who already exist BTW) literally overrun wealth centres looking for shelter and housing.

It's funny just how mental their world view is. They have enough wealth that even moderately spreading it around could elevate A LOT more people into incredibly comfortable lifestyles. What can one man do with billions of dollars? It basically seems like literally a mental illness with these rich and powerful types. I can't see why they wouldn't want to live in a world where far more of us live very happy lives without struggle. They'd have a lot more potential friends in the world and it would be a happier place for the lot of us...

When you accrue and spend money it literally gives you endorphin hits like drug abuse or gambling – I think it's safe to say their worldview is pretty fucked up, to the point of illness, thanks to that.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
But the rich were being exploited
LOL fuck off. It's amazing that these cunts actually believe in this complete garbage. So utterly disconnected from reality, yet with so much power to affect it. It's infuriating.
 

akira28

Member
yeah the liberty vs democracy argument

america should stand for the liberty of people who can afford to do what they want to be able to do it. democracy in America isn't as important as the liberty of its land owning class.

In fact, often times democracy is in direct opposition to the desires of the land owners and at odds with liberty, so gross democracy is something America should never want.

"Conservatives" love the ever lasting fuck out of that.
 

Amalthea

Banned
Considering that the Little Ice Age is often cited as one of the contributing factors that led to the French Revolution, by the way of the elites deregulating the bread and crop market as a shortsighted countermeasure to the cold, wet summers caused by that climate change, it might be very well possible that our current climate change could lead to a violent uprising against the rich and powerful.
 

prag16

Banned
climate change

climate change

climate change

Bold strategy, Cotton.

See you guys... some time in the future:

Waiting-Skeleton.jpg


plot twist, that picture is taken in Antarctica
 

JustenP88

I earned 100 Gamerscore™ for collecting 300 widgets and thereby created Trump's America
Kinda feels like 'eat the rich' is going from an edgy cliche to a moral imperative.

Democrats need to take a hard turn in that direction after this Trump shit is taken care of.
 
How is this any different from the crazy right wing conspiracy theories of a "Deep state" that works to flood America with illegal immigrants and controls all aspects of the media, banks, medical industry to propagate a socialist whatever whatever whatever? Oh, its because you like to believe it seems true?

Simple fact is conspiracy theories that require large numbers of people like this never work out because in the end people are selfish and do whatever they want to give themselves more money and power, not for some shadowy group. Plus people are TERRIBLE at keeping secrets in large groups. Yes, there is a large group of republicans that want to dismantle government but not because some puppet billionaires are pulling the strings, but because they fundamentally believe everything government does is bad. You don't need to see the Illuminati or anything behind it, its just people convinced they are doing the right thing and not really caring what anyone else tells them.

The fact that the ACA repeal bills failed, repeatedly, should tell you the limits of their current abilities.
 
How is this any different from the crazy right wing conspiracy theories of a "Deep state" that works to flood America with illegal immigrants and controls all aspects of the media, banks, medical industry to propagate a socialist whatever whatever whatever? Oh, its because you like to believe it seems true?

Simple fact is conspiracy theories that require large numbers of people like this never work out because in the end people are selfish and do whatever they want to give themselves more money and power, not for some shadowy group. Plus people are TERRIBLE at keeping secrets in large groups. Yes, there is a large group of republicans that want to dismantle government but not because some puppet billionaires are pulling the strings, but because they fundamentally believe everything government does is bad. You don't need to see the Illuminati or anything behind it, its just people convinced they are doing the right thing and not really caring what anyone else tells them.

The fact that the ACA repeal bills failed, repeatedly, should tell you the limits of their current abilities.

Like capitalism, the system is designed to let the people who are only self interested to be so. That is the goal here.

This is just a loose affiliation of people taking part in the conspiracy without being a part of it proper, because they follow the same philosophy.

The conspiracy angle comes more from who knows what and who is actively working toward those goals together, not whether or not our is happening.
 
The fact that the ACA repeal bills failed, repeatedly, should tell you the limits of their current abilities.

Well, I think a lot of us were watching that trying to figure out why the GOP was so desperately dead set on passing a bill with 17% support, that would gut their own constituency's health, and that made GOP representatives afraid to go to their town halls.

I don't claim to have any idea what secret agendas are or are not being discussed behind the most hidden doors of Washington, but damn if it's not difficult to find a reasonable explanation for this shit sometimes.
 
Simple fact is conspiracy theories that require large numbers of people like this never work out because in the end people are selfish and do whatever they want to give themselves more money and power, not for some shadowy group. Plus people are TERRIBLE at keeping secrets in large groups. Yes, there is a large group of republicans that want to dismantle government but not because some puppet billionaires are pulling the strings, but because they fundamentally believe everything government does is bad. You don't need to see the Illuminati or anything behind it, its just people convinced they are doing the right thing and not really caring what anyone else tells them.

Power in our society derives from money, and understanding that the CREATORS of fresh new money operate in a tight-nit "old boys club" is not that giant of a leap. If we just focus on the banks, for example, massive banking power in the west was consolidated in the 1800's between London and New York. That massive consolidated power gave us the private Federal Reserve (and other central banks modeled after the Fed), then gave us the IMF/World Bank to manage the developing world, ultimately consolidating most central banks around the world around the Bank of International Settlements.

You can go up the food chain, and realize that at most every level, institutions answer to higher authorities. It's just human. You can also dangle the money carrot in front of a corporate media outfit, so that they push your angle to the masses OR ELSE. It's just human. Governments can be controlled via debt covenants imposed by private outfits like the IMF, and to outsiders this is just "sound lending" and "promoting of free markets".
.
Illuminati lizard people conspiracies are bunk... but to think that old money hasn't consolidated power BEYOND any one meager country's government is a very rosy naive view of the world.

On topic: we should all be watching all Adam Curtis documentaries. This one tackles this very subject:

The Trap: What Happened to Our Dream of Freedom

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y97Ywl7RtUw&t=2761s
 

SomTervo

Member
How is this any different from the crazy right wing conspiracy theories of a "Deep state" that works to flood America with illegal immigrants and controls all aspects of the media, banks, medical industry to propagate a socialist whatever whatever whatever? Oh, its because you like to believe it seems true?

What? Did you read the article? There's no conspiracy here. This is about one man (James Buchanan) who literally wrote down everything that he did and that would control power, then wrote down exactly how and why he did it, and we can see the literal evidence of everything he set out to do in modern political history and how it has led in part to our current global political climate.

We have the actual written evidence of everything the guy did and thought. It's not a conspiracy theory. Your comparison to conspiracy theories would work if, for example, Hilary Clinton had essay upon essay about how she deleted all her emails intentionally and how all of her politics had some weird dark motive to manipulate the world's economy.

But we don't because she didn't and doesn't.

This is a different ball game.

On topic: we should all be watching all Adam Curtis documentaries. This one tackles this very subject:

The Trap: What Happened to Our Dream of Freedom

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y97Ywl7RtUw&t=2761s

Hear, hear!
 

TyrantII

Member
How is this any different from the crazy right wing conspiracy theories of a "Deep state"

Because it's real?

Neo-liberal economics is what we practice today, and the results speak for themselves. It's policy and political thought that came from somewhere and this books explores it. That's not a conspiracy, that's research.

You think the Renaissance and Enlightenment are conspiracy theories too?
 

Dartastic

Member
Because it's real?

Neo-liberal economics is what we practice today, and the results speak for themselves. It's policy and political thought that came from somewhere and this books explores it. That's not a conspiracy, that's research.

You think the Renaissance and Enlightenment are conspiracy theories too?
.
 

kirblar

Member
How is this any different from the crazy right wing conspiracy theories of a "Deep state" that works to flood America with illegal immigrants and controls all aspects of the media, banks, medical industry to propagate a socialist whatever whatever whatever? Oh, its because you like to believe it seems true?

Simple fact is conspiracy theories that require large numbers of people like this never work out because in the end people are selfish and do whatever they want to give themselves more money and power, not for some shadowy group. Plus people are TERRIBLE at keeping secrets in large groups. Yes, there is a large group of republicans that want to dismantle government but not because some puppet billionaires are pulling the strings, but because they fundamentally believe everything government does is bad. You don't need to see the Illuminati or anything behind it, its just people convinced they are doing the right thing and not really caring what anyone else tells them.

The fact that the ACA repeal bills failed, repeatedly, should tell you the limits of their current abilities.
It's not. It's a complete and total misrepresentation of people's positions.

https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/7/14/15967788/democracy-shackles-james-buchanan-intellectual-history-maclean
A deep, historical study of public choice would be welcome, and Buchanan's role in the development of the thought and organizational infrastructure of the right has generally been overlooked. Unfortunately, the book is an example of precisely the kind of work on the right that we do not need, and the intellectuals of the left who have praised it are doing their side no favors.

MacLean is undoubtedly correct that the ideas of Buchanan, an economist who taught at George Mason University, and his acolytes are important. Their writings reshaped the way we think about regulation, governments, and markets. For example, public choice economists have argued that many US Department of Agriculture rules for food are intended not to protect consumers, but to protect influential businesses from smaller competitors that have difficulty in complying with these standards. Public choice suggests that regulatory agencies are often ”captured" by narrow interests, and that the best solution is often to minimize government bureaucrats' ability to regulate.

This is undoubtedly a right-leaning understanding of economics and politics, and one that is limited as a guide to the actual operation of political institutions. But it provides a set of tools that should be in the organizational repertoire of any political thinker or activist. It can be turned to understanding businesses as well as politicians. Public choice–influenced economists like the University of Chicago's Luigi Zingales are clearly right-wing, but they also provide important insights about how powerful businesses can systematically corrupt the political system. The Trump administration's combination of sleaze and regulatory power is likely to provide many examples of the kind of government ”capture" that public choice economists have warned against.
MacLean, however, doesn't want to explain how public choice economists think and argue. Instead, she portrays them as participants in a far-reaching conspiracy. She describes how a movement of ”fifth columnists" that ”congratulated itself on its ability to carry out a revolution beneath the radar of prying eyes" is looking to fundamentally undermine American democracy. She uses cloak-and-dagger language to suggest that she was only able to uncover the key files explaining what was going on because someone failed to lock ”one crucial door" to a half-deserted building on George Mason University's campus. (George Mason is the site of an unlisted and then-disorganized archive of Buchanan's papers.)

In language better suited to a Dan Brown novel than a serious nonfiction book, she describes Buchanan as an ”evil genius," and suggests he had a ”diabolical" plan to permanently ”shackle" democracy, so that the will of the majority would no longer influence government in core areas of the economy. In MacLean's account, Buchanan, who won the Nobel Prize for his work on the contractual and constitutional bases of decision-making but is nearly unknown to the public, prepared the plan that the Koch brothers and other conservative funders and activists have been carrying out ever since.

While some on the left have hailed the book, libertarians and conservatives have attacked it online. Several have argued that MacLean misleadingly truncates quotes, to make it seem as if Buchanan and other libertarians such as Tyler Cowen are anti-democratic. While they obviously have a great deal of skin in the game, their critiques of the book have landed a number of solid blows.

For instance, when MacLean claims that Cowen is providing ”a handbook for how to conduct a fifth column assault on democracy," she cites as evidence Cowen's statement that ”the weakening of checks and balances would increase the chance of a very good outcome." Unfortunately, she declines to provide the reader with the second half of the sentence, which goes on to note that ”it would also increase the chance of a very bad outcome." Nor, as she has claimed in interview, is the title of Cowen's blog Marginal Revolution a signal to the illuminated that Cowen is undertaking a gradual revolution by stealth (it's actually a well-known term for the birth of modern economics).

She accuses David Boaz, executive vice president of the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank, of believing that ”close to half of American society is intent on exploiting the rich" when he writes about a ”parasite economy" of predators and prey. In fact, the predators Boaz is talking about are specific interests lobbying for subsidies, tariffs, quotas, or trade restrictions. While his claims can be contested, they are simply not what MacLean says they are.

MacLean's critics on the right also argue that there is little to no evidence supporting her most important arguments, and some of her most trenchant examples. There is no strong evidence that Buchanan was motivated to rein in state power because he opposed Brown v. Board of Education, for instance, or helped Pinochet design his authoritarian constitution, despite MacLean's insinuations to the contrary.

Those on the left might be inclined to think that the libertarian and conservative critics of the book are lashing out, or overemphasizing a few errors, because MacLean has revealed the dark side of one of their heroes and the unsavory modern history of their movement. Or alternatively, as MacLean has publicly claimed is the case, one might see this criticism as a counter-campaign by ”Koch operatives" aimed at discrediting her. Yet while we do not share Buchanan's ideology — and we would love to read a trenchant critical account of the origins of public choice — we think the broad thrust of the criticism is right. MacLean is not only wrong in detail but mistaken in the fundamentals of her account.
Yes, there are lots of stupid ideas and crazy ideologues in conservative and libertarian circles. But that isn't unique to them, and Public Choice theory is not some stealth bomber trying to bring down the intellectual columns supporting the nation.
 

SomTervo

Member
It's not. It's a complete and total misrepresentation of people's positions.

https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/7/14/15967788/democracy-shackles-james-buchanan-intellectual-history-maclean


Yes, there are lots of stupid ideas and crazy ideologues in conservative and libertarian circles. But that isn't unique to them, and Public Choice theory is not some stealth bomber trying to bring down the intellectual columns supporting the nation.

Thanks for that. Put it in the OP.

This thread is specifically about Monbiot's analysis and i think he's on point about a few things, but the way Buchanan and his work is demonised is probably not ideal. It's clear the darkest patterns are misappropriations of various Public Choice concepts.
 

Aselith

Member
Well, I think a lot of us were watching that trying to figure out why the GOP was so desperately dead set on passing a bill with 17% support, that would gut their own constituency's health, and that made GOP representatives afraid to go to their town halls.

I don't claim to have any idea what secret agendas are or are not being discussed behind the most hidden doors of Washington, but damn if it's not difficult to find a reasonable explanation for this shit sometimes.

I think the reason that happened is because they felt the tax cuts would win back support when they got to the budget and were desperate to get passed the ACA hurdle. A lot of their tax cuts are contingent on gutting the ACA first and they got tunnel vision.
 

kirblar

Member
Thanks for that. Put it in the OP.

This thread is specifically about Monbiot's analysis and i think he's on point about a few things, but the way Buchanan and his work is demonised is probably not ideal. It's clear the darkest patterns are misappropriations of various Public Choice concepts.
Yeah, Public Choice is a very good thing to be aware of- the ways in which businesses and organization will seek protection from competition is something very important to consider within regulatory frameworks, even if the actual real-life solution is very unlikely to be "just don't regulate anything!"

NIMBYism is a good example of something where the issue comes from local citizens using government regulation to exclude large amounts of people via zoning restrictions. The best solution to the problem? Generally, make them less free to set their own local zoning restrictions. Areas where they are primarily set at the state level have fewer issues.
 

SomTervo

Member
I think the reason that happened is because they felt the tax cuts would win back support when they got to the budget and were desperate to get passed the ACA hurdle. A lot of their tax cuts are contingent on gutting the ACA first and they got tunnel vision.

Tying it back to tax cuts seems like a good call.

Yeah, Public Choice is a very good thing to be aware of- the ways in which businesses and organization will seek protection from competition is something very important to consider within regulatory frameworks, even if the actual real-life solution is very unlikely to be "just don't regulate anything!"

NIMBYism is a good example of something where the issue comes from local citizens using government regulation to exclude large amounts of people via zoning restrictions. The best solution to the problem? Generally, make them less free to set their own local zoning restrictions. Areas where they are primarily set at the state level have fewer issues.

I think that's the article's beef – they seem to draw the conclusion that James Buchanan was interested in reducing regulation and taxes in a piecemeal fashion, which is what HAS happened, and has caused all sorts of grim politics.

Still, I'd like to read more into it to find out if that's really the case. I.e. if that really was his ulterior motive.
 
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