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[Waychel]

What upsets me the most about this case is that I fail to see how Terri's husband Michael Schiavo -- who stands to inherit $500,000+ from Terri's trust fund upon her death -- can be expected to act in her best interest when so many years have passed and he has already moved on with his life and started a new family. Michael Schiavo won malpractice suits on the basis of keeping Terri alive and that money went into Terri's trust fund for that purpose; but now, he is paradoxically being allowed to draw from that same trust fund to compensate attorneys in fighting for her "right to death." I just see so much contradiction and confliction of interest here, which is why I can't help but sympathise for Terri Schiavo's family. Unfortunately, that is simply the way that the law is written and nothing can be accomplished by further appealing the issue.

As for whether Terri is in a PVS or not, I believe that if there was enough medical evidence to support discovery on this issue that her tube would have been re-inserted days ago. On face value, I'm given the impression from videos that Terri Schiavo is not in a PVS; but I do not know the medical evidence being presented, which is the heart of the matter. I trust that if there was enough basis to argue against Terri's diagnosis that at least one of these judges or panels would have leaned in favor of the tube being re-inserted. Maybe I have a little too much trust in the judicial system, but I'd trust it over this issue than any portrayel given by the media.

In regards to congress and the president being involved, I really don't know what to think. Maybe I'm missing the bigger picture or ill-informed, but I fail to see what legal grounds they have to be involved and find this circus to be a total mockery of the judicial system/legislature and state of Florida. I wish that instead of talking so much about Terri's "suffering" we could hear a little more about the legal grounds/context behind congress and the president becoming involved in a FLORIDA affair, because IMO, that is what really has the potential to impact our lives the most. *shrug*

 

[Azih]

Terri's husband was offered money by Terri's parents to turn over guardianship to them and he refused. All of the money he won in malpractice suits was used up in Terri's care. For the first four or so years after the accident he flew Terri to specialists in California for treatment. Is it so hard to believe that he has Terri's wishes at heart? He will not make any money of this and could have very easily walked away years ago.

 

[border]

I fail to see how Terri's husband Michael Schiavo -- who stands to inherit $500,000+ from Terri's trust fund upon her death -- can be expected to act in her best interest when

Have you read the thread? That money is long gone. Do you realize how much money it takes to keep someone hostpitalized for 15 years straight? If he was just after cash then he would have walked away a long time ago because I doubt anybody here is going to walk away with anything but massive debt.

Even if the money was still there you could just as easily argue the opposite angle (parents want the money after the husband is out of the picture).

 

[Drensch]

Funny how the republicans want Shiavo alive so much, yet the money that's keeping her alive is from a malpractice case. Something that they are trying put an end to.

 

[Waychel]

I'd like to know where you're getting conclusive evidence that all of the money has been spent, considering the fact that financial records relating to the trust are sealed. Thus far, all that has been confirmed are attorney fees (around $450,000) which have been far more costly over the years than Terri's medical care. Regardless, Michael Shrivo and any financial gain he may have in this ultimately has little to do in the long run of things with my position on the issue.

Anyways, from what I've heard, the guy was a control freak in life. All of Terri's closest friends have attested to this fact and one even claims that the two were making plans to get an apartment because Terri was planning to divorce Michael Schivo. I believe all of this witness testimony is enough of a basis for one to contest that Michael Schivo may not entirely have Terri's best wishes at heart.

 

[Vormund]

No point laughing...pic is gone :|

 

[SickBoy]

The latest offer was from a California businessman, who offered Michael Schiavo $1 million to give up his guardianship.

Also:

In 1998, Michael Schiavo offered to donate to charity the $700,000 then remaining in a trust account set up for his wife's care if her parents agreed to let her feeding tube be removed. They refused.

The money had been won in a medical malpractice case. Schiavo stood to inherit it upon his wife's death. Today, only about $50,000 remains.

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/11/Tampabay/1_million_offered_to_.shtml

The California offer was not the biggest. The biggest offer was $10 million:

http://www.11alive.com/news/usnews_article.aspx?storyid=60169
(cheesy TV news station source... story, though, is AP)

I have to say, I think these facts are generally glossed over. People are demonizing Michael Schiavo, but he's not taking the easy road. That would be to take the free money and move to a country where he's a nobody and smoke cigars all day.

I feel for Terri's parents, in part because they seem to be so severely in denial. To hear them tell it, it sometimes sounds like Terri's just a step away from getting up and walking around. "She talks" "she reacts" "she has meaningful interactions" "she says 'I don't want to die'"

Yet I'm sure we've been played the most compelling video of Terri Schiavo, and I just don't see anything but a moving body.

 

[Ill Saint]

deathocrats

Whoever made that site is fucked up in the head something fierce.

 

[fse]

Man Tries to Steal Gun to 'Rescue Schiavo'

what the hell is wrong with these people?

they are christian? I dunno, its scary though.

 

[bob_arctor]

Man Tries to Steal Gun to 'Rescue Schiavo'

what the hell is wrong with these people?

Wait, here's a better one:
Must...protect....life...by...killing....

Authorities said Richard Alan Meywes of Fairview, North Carolina, offered $250,000 for the killing of Michael Schiavo and another $50,000 for the death of Circuit Court Judge George Greer, who ordered Schiavo's feeding tube removed a week ago.

Gotta love the wackos.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

Every passing day will make this even crazier

 

[WedgeX]

What upsets me the most about this case is that I fail to see how Terri's husband Michael Schiavo -- who stands to inherit $500,000+ from Terri's trust fund upon her death -- can be expected to act in her best interest when so many years have passed and he has already moved on with his life and started a new family. Michael Schiavo won malpractice suits on the basis of keeping Terri alive and that money went into Terri's trust fund for that purpose; but now, he is paradoxically being allowed to draw from that same trust fund to compensate attorneys in fighting for her "right to death." I just see so much contradiction and confliction of interest here, which is why I can't help but sympathise for Terri Schiavo's family. Unfortunately, that is simply the way that the law is written and nothing can be accomplished by further appealing the issue.

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/17/Tampabay/Money_is_just_about_e.shtml

AP article.

The $1-million received by her and her husband, Michael, in a medical malpractice case in 1993 is nearly gone, attorneys say, spent on her care and the husband's legal quest over the past seven years to stop her artificial feedings so she can die.

...

Just $40,000 to $50,000 remains of the money won in the malpractice case after Terri's heart stopped in 1990 and left her in what court-appointed doctors say is a persistent vegetative state. Deborah Bushnell, one of Michael Schiavo's attorneys, said the money is being saved for legal expenses. It is held in a trust fund, and a judge approves all expenditures, from attorneys' fees to the woman's haircuts.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

Yet, the wackos will never realize that part, he wants the DOLLARZZZZ!!!!!
He isn't get shit but a bullet when this is over

 

[border]

Thus far, all that has been confirmed are attorney fees (around $450,000) which have been far more costly over the years than Terri's medical care.

I seriously doubt that the legal costs are higher than medical ones. On average it takes like $57K a year just to put your grandparent in a mid-quality nursing home.....and Shiavo's probably more expensive (plus there have been complications and health problems that add to everything). Just use your head and you can probably figure out that the money's gone.....who else is going to pay for her care?

 

[brooklyngooner]

Man, this thread just keeps on going. Everytime I think it's run its course, someone else comes in, not having read it, and starts arguing about Michael Schiavo being evil, or Terri not really being in PVS.

Read the damn thread, people!

Why bother becoming educated on the issues when you can martyr yourself to an opinion of ignorance? It got Republicans elected.

 

[theo]

why spend easter with your family when you can waste your time outside a hospice!

 

[peedi]

While I rarely find myself in the religious right's camp, some of the comments in this thread have veered from asinine to outright cruel. This woman is being starved to death, no matter what the husband's lawyer says. The mere notion that she, as he put it, is "peaceful and content" violates their OWN unsubstantiated assertion that she is in a PVS.

It's difficult for me to grasp how anyone can support court-mandated starvation.

 

[videogamer]

And DeLay is among the strongest advocates of keeping the woman, who doctors say has been in a persistent vegetative state for 15 years, connected to her feeding tube. DeLay has denounced Schiavo's husband, as well as judges, for committing what he calls "an act of barbarism" in removing the tube.

In 1988, however, there was no such fiery rhetoric as the congressman quietly joined the sad family consensus to let his father die.

"There was no point to even really talking about it," Maxine DeLay, the congressman's 81-year-old widowed mother, recalled in an interview last week. "There was no way [Charles] wanted to live like that. Tom knew — we all knew — his father wouldn't have wanted to live that way."

Doctors advised that he would "basically be a vegetable," said the congressman's aunt, JoAnne DeLay.

When his father's kidneys failed, the DeLay family decided against connecting him to a dialysis machine. "Extraordinary measures to prolong life were not initiated," said his medical report, citing "agreement with the family's wishes." His bedside chart carried the instruction: "Do not resuscitate."

On Dec. 14, 1988, the DeLay patriarch "expired with his family in attendance."

"The situation faced by the congressman's family was entirely different than Terri Schiavo's," said a spokesman for the majority leader, who declined requests for an interview.

"The only thing keeping her alive is the food and water we all need to survive. His father was on a ventilator and other machines to sustain him," said Dan Allen, DeLay's press aide.

There were also these similarities: Both stricken patients were severely brain-damaged. Both were incapable of surviving without medical assistance. Both were said to have expressed a desire to be spared from being kept alive by artificial means. And neither of them had a living will.

This previously unpublished account of the majority leader's personal brush with life-ending decisions was assembled from court files, medical records and interviews with family members.

Doctors conducted a series of tests, including scans of his head, face, neck and abdomen. They checked for lung damage and performed a tracheostomy to assist his breathing. But they could not prevent steady deterioration.

Then, infections complicated the senior DeLay's fight for life. Finally, his organs began to fail. His family and physicians confronted the dreaded choice so many other Americans have faced: to make heroic efforts or to let the end come.

"Daddy did not want to be a vegetable," said Skogen, one of his daughters-in-law at the time. "There was no decision for the family to make. He made it for them."

The preliminary decision to withhold dialysis and other treatments fell to Maxine along with Randall and her daughter Tena — and "Tom went along." He raised no objection, said the congressman's mother.

Family members said they prayed.

Jerry DeLay "felt terribly about the accident" that injured his brother, said his wife, JoAnne. "He prayed that, if [Charles] couldn't have quality of life, that God would take him — and that is exactly what he did."

Charles Ray DeLay died at 3:17 a.m., according to his death certificate, 27 days after plummeting down the hillside.

The family then turned to lawyers.

In 1990, the DeLays filed suit against Midcap Bearing Corp. of San Antonio and Lovejoy Inc. of Illinois, the distributor and maker of a coupling that the family said had failed and caused the tram to hurtle out of control.

The family's wrongful death lawsuit accused the companies of negligence and sought actual and punitive damages. Lawyers for the companies denied the allegations and countersued the surviving designer of the tram system, Jerry DeLay.

The case thrust Rep. DeLay into unfamiliar territory — the front page of a civil complaint as a plaintiff. He is an outspoken defender of business against what he calls the crippling effects of "predatory, self-serving litigation."

The DeLay family litigation sought unspecified compensation for, among other things, the dead father's "physical pain and suffering, mental anguish and trauma," and the mother's grief, sorrow and loss of companionship.

Their lawsuit also alleged violations of the Texas product liability law.

The DeLay case moved slowly through the Texas judicial system, accumulating more than 500 pages of motions, affidavits and disclosures over nearly three years. Among the affidavits was one filed by the congressman, but family members said he had little direct involvement in the lawsuit, leaving that to his brother Randall, an attorney.

Rep. DeLay, who since has taken a leading role promoting tort reform, wants to rein in trial lawyers to protect American businesses from what he calls "frivolous, parasitic lawsuits" that raise insurance premiums and "kill jobs."

Last September, he expressed less than warm sentiment for attorneys when he took the floor of the House to condemn trial lawyers who, he said, "get fat off the pain" of plaintiffs and off "the hard work" of defendants.

Aides for DeLay defended his role as a plaintiff in the family lawsuit, saying he did not follow the legal case and was not aware of its final outcome.

The case was resolved in 1993 with payment of an undisclosed sum, said to be about $250,000, according to sources familiar with the out-of-court settlement. DeLay signed over his share of any proceeds to his mother, said his aides.

Three years later, DeLay cosponsored a bill specifically designed to override state laws on product liability such as the one cited in his family's lawsuit. The legislation provided sweeping exemptions for product sellers.

The 1996 bill was vetoed by President Clinton, who said he objected to the DeLay-backed measure because it "tilts against American families and would deprive them of the ability to recover fully when they are injured by a defective product."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...7mar27,0,5710023.story?coll=la-home-headlines

 

[Ninja Scooter]

 

[peedi]

What does that have to do with starving a woman to death? You guys are so desperate to debunk, defame, and dismiss the right, that you're completely oblivious to the egregious inhumanity at play in Florida. A woman is being starved to death. Oh, I forgot -- starvation is euphoric. Sigh...

 

[theo]

:lol :lol :lol

 

[Incognito]

Peedi, quit trolling. You're better than this.

 

[peedi]

Peedi, quit trolling. You're better than this.

Spare me, faux-lib. Your position is bankrupt. This is fundamentally about what is right and wrong. Starving a woman to death is wrong. Subjecting her parents to this deathwatch is wrong. Go dredge up some more muck to sling the right's way. Keep doing everything in your power to solidify the American left's slide into irrelevancy.

For clarity's sake, I am not a right-winger.

 

[border]

I think he's frustrated that the OA crew won't take the bait anymore, so he's having a hand at GA-styled contrarianism....

 

[videogamer]

Spare me, faux-lib. Your position is bankrupt. This is fundamentally about what is right and wrong. Starving a woman to death is wrong. Subjecting her parents to this deathwatch is wrong. Go dredge up some more muck to sling the right's way. Keep doing everything in your power to solidify the American left's slide into irrelevancy.

For clarity's sake, I am not a right-winger.

1. What if she didn't want to live like this? You know, euthanasia is not legal here. BTW, this is artifical prolongation of her life. She can't swallow on her own. If it were not for the current technology, she would have had a natural death by now.
2. It's the right that has been most visible during this controversy. The left has been mainly murmuring in the background.

 

[Incognito]

I think he's frustrated that the OA crew won't take the bait anymore, so he's having a hand at GA-styled contrarianism....

:lol Exactly.

 

[909er]

What upsets me the most about this case is that I fail to see how Terri's husband Michael Schiavo -- who stands to inherit $500,000+ from Terri's trust fund upon her death -- can be expected to act in her best interest when so many years have passed and he has already moved on with his life and started a new family. Michael Schiavo won malpractice suits on the basis of keeping Terri alive and that money went into Terri's trust fund for that purpose; but now, he is paradoxically being allowed to draw from that same trust fund to compensate attorneys in fighting for her "right to death." I just see so much contradiction and confliction of interest here, which is why I can't help but sympathise for Terri Schiavo's family. Unfortunately, that is simply the way that the law is written and nothing can be accomplished by further appealing the issue.

As for whether Terri is in a PVS or not, I believe that if there was enough medical evidence to support discovery on this issue that her tube would have been re-inserted days ago. On face value, I'm given the impression from videos that Terri Schiavo is not in a PVS; but I do not know the medical evidence being presented, which is the heart of the matter. I trust that if there was enough basis to argue against Terri's diagnosis that at least one of these judges or panels would have leaned in favor of the tube being re-inserted. Maybe I have a little too much trust in the judicial system, but I'd trust it over this issue than any portrayel given by the media.

In regards to congress and the president being involved, I really don't know what to think. Maybe I'm missing the bigger picture or ill-informed, but I fail to see what legal grounds they have to be involved and find this circus to be a total mockery of the judicial system/legislature and state of Florida. I wish that instead of talking so much about Terri's "suffering" we could hear a little more about the legal grounds/context behind congress and the president becoming involved in a FLORIDA affair, because IMO, that is what really has the potential to impact our lives the most. *shrug*

Regarding what you see, it's very misleading. The video continually shown is the most ideal one supporting the parents, that makes her look like she's aware or smiling. Basically, a number of court-appointed neurologists(not hired by Schiavo) have said she's in PVS. The only doctor to say she's not in PVS was hired by the parents, and is part of two active Christian organizations that have spoken out against the removal of the tube, and he didn't even examine her.

 

[909er]

Spare me, faux-lib. Your position is bankrupt. This is fundamentally about what is right and wrong. Starving a woman to death is wrong. Subjecting her parents to this deathwatch is wrong. Go dredge up some more muck to sling the right's way. Keep doing everything in your power to solidify the American left's slide into irrelevancy.

For clarity's sake, I am not a right-winger.

The left hasn't done jack shit but give tacit support to the right in this case. In fact, it's been the Republicans that have been the most loud, both for and against this. The religious wackos, the vocal minority of the party, wants the tube reinserted on their ideological grounds. The silent majority of the party, the REAL conservatives/Republicans, are pissed that the federal government dare trample on a states rights issue, what amounts to the essence of the right being trampled on(smaller federal government, more rights to states).

Regarding what's right and wrong, it's relative. I'm sure me and ALOT of other people would amount being kept alive under that condition to be equal to torture, assuming I even had conciousess. This a decision that was between the husband and wife, and nobody else has any right to say what is right and wrong in this case. Keep in mind that decisions like this are made about a 1000 times a day.

 

[videogamer]

Dude taunts police officer.

One of the kids who was caught crossing the police line. Check out the guy behind him:

Yeah, registered sex offender?

http://www3.fdle.state.fl.us/sexual_predators/OffenderFlyer.asp?keys=38964
http://www.wfmynews2.com/news/local_state/local_article.aspx?storyid=38304

Effects of prolonged protesting outside of a hospice:

Jennifer Johnson, barefoot and in her pajamas, ran to her grandfather's bedside once a hospice worker said his death was moments away. She got there — one minute too late. Johnson said the chaos outside the hospice where Terri Schiavo is dying kept her from saying goodbye.

When Johnson arrived, a police officer demanded identification; she had none. And after a hospice employee cleared her, another officer halted her for a search with a metal detector.

The delays lasted three to four minutes — the last of her grandfather's life.

"It's a terrible, extra obstacle to put in front of a family. ... Everything is about Schiavo," Johnson said. "It's all about her and in my family's case, it cost us dearly."

Family members visiting patients must pass through a police checkpoint to park, then show identification outside the door before another security screening inside. They also must walk by scores of signs decrying Schiavo's "crucifixion," "torture," and "starvation," plus navigate around hordes of media who have been camped outside.

"To have to maneuver through all of this and have a hostile environment outside when all they want is peace and quiet and to enjoy those few days they have left with a loved one is a horror," said Dr. Morton Getz, executive director of Douglas Gardens Hospice in Miami.

Getz said many people with a family member in a hospice have to make the same excruciating decision that courts have made for Schiavo.

"It's causing a lot of grief and questions in their own mind on whether they did the right thing," he said. "It's unconscionable to have a family member to be near the end stages of life and to get there, you have to walk through signs that say, 'Murderer.'"

One woman in a wheelchair regularly moves up and down sidewalks in front of the hospice yelling in a megaphone, "We're disabled, not disposable!" and "Terri is a person, not a vegetable!"

Relatives of hospice residents say the clamor — intended to rattle Michael Schiavo — rattles their patience.

"It's a real pain in the neck," said Bill Douglass, whose mother-in-law is a resident. He said the only consolation is that she is "oblivious" to the outside scene.

...."They've taken away hospice's greatest quality, that it is peaceful and serene and quiet and calming — and it's not fair," Johnson said.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050326/ap_on_re_us/schiavo_hospice_chaos

 

[gigapower]

Hammy, those pics you posted look more like something from a KKK rally then christians protesting Pro-Life.

 

[909er]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...today/feudmaybeasmuchovermoneyasprinciple&e=3

This article gives a pretty good history of the family problems involved. It's probably the most objective piece I've read in regards to this case.

 

[WedgeX]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/politics/29donate.html?ei=5088&en=eff131665ae17165&ex=1269752400&partner=rssnyt&pagewanted=print&position=

List of Schiavo Donors Will Be Sold by Direct-Marketing Firm

The parents of Terri Schiavo have authorized a conservative direct-mailing firm to sell a list of donors to their legal expenses, making it likely that thousands of strangers moved by her plight will receive a steady stream of solicitations from anti-abortion and conservative groups.

...

Schindler's list has been sold.

 

[tenchir]

Can't believe I read every single post. The majority of the posters who are against the pulling of the tube either got their information from the "pro-life" people or didn't heard from both sides.

As for the possibility of recovering from liquified brain, it's not likely, it is much worse than recovering from coma. I am going to talk about coma since it is related. I believe that the majority of the population don't know the the effects of a coma on a person's motor and cognitive skills after a period of time(like 2 weeks for example). You know in those movies or TV shows where a coma patient who wake up after years of being in a coma(like the Dead Zone for example) and still had his full mental capacity? Completely fictional.

The reality is that if a comatose patient who has not wake up from a coma within 48 hours(I think), isn't likely to wake up anytime soon, the brain just completely shuts down(or more likely the parts that isn't needed to keep the person alive, you just need to keep breathing, etc...). The trouble is that while it's simple for the brain to shut down, the real problems come when it has to turn itself on again. The longer the person is in a coma, the more likely that parts of the brain will not be turned on when the person "wake" up from a coma.

I read that people who wakes up weeks after being in the coma will have significantly poorer short term memory and motor skills(like having trouble walking). These people once "rehabitated," will have at best 80-90% on average of their cognitive skills. Most of them would need to carry out pencil and notebook to record their days or they might forget. Here is something interesting, sometime the personality of a person completely changes after recovering from these short comas.... a famous movie star is known for this(use google).

Patients who were comatose for months will usually have the mental faculties of a 6 year old and aren't likely to get any better. Patients who were in a coma for years will be lucky to be able to talk.... and that's assuming they will be self-aware. You guys should do some research on coma patients after they wake up, really interesting stuff on how the brain works.


Would you still want to be kept alive if there was a possibility you might recover after a month of being in a coma? Here's a list of stuff that can happen to you after waking up from a coma besides the stuff I talked about above:

Losing the ability to store short term memories(I think the movie Mementos has a good example of this).
Losing the ability to store long term memories(the 50 First Dates is a good example)
Inability to distinguished left from right or vice-versa.
Complete lost of mathematic skills or even able to undestand the concept of numbers.
Complete lost of the ability to communicate verbally. Or lose the ability to say what you mean, like thinking of saying "cat", but end up saying "doorstep."

So I am basically saying that the husband is doing her a huge favor to pulling the plug. She just won't have any possibility of a meaningful life if she manage to somehow "recover."