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[Madness]

A 23-year-old Milwaukee man was arrested by the FBI after he allegedly plotted to kill dozens of people inside a Masonic temple in an attack that he said would be “known all over the world,” authorities said Tuesday.

Samy Mohamed Hamzeh is accused of buying machine guns and a silencer from undercover FBI agents to carry out his mass shooting, which he devised with two other unknown sources, the Department of Justice said. He was arrested immediately after the sale and charged with illegally possessing machine guns.

Hamzeh, who had been under investigation since September 2015, was allegedly recorded boasting about how they would “eliminate everyone” in the temple and hoped to gun down at least 30 people. He toured the temple on Jan. 19 to take note of meeting schedules and where people could be found, authorities said.

“Thirty is excellent. If I got out, after killing thirty people, I will be happy . . . because these 30 will terrify the world,” he allegedly said to his conspirators, according to officials.

http://time.com/4194908/milwaukee-fbi-shooting-temple/

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/fbi-man-plotted-machine-gun-attack-masonic-temple-021318077.html

Just crazy. We always hear of the terror attacks that happen, but very rarely do we get a look at how many attacks are prevented beforehand. Glad that authorities were watching him early and caught him, prevented many innocent deaths.

 

[BocoDragon]

Way to attack a secret society that hasn't been relevant in over a century.

 

[Madness]

Way to attack a secret society that hasn't been relevant in over a century.

Supposedly just picked a target that would be easy and under the radar. I would assume the temple just seemed American/Christian enough for him, even though that's not what the Freemasons are about. The FBI affidavit said he initially wanted to go to Israel and attack soldiers there but dropped the plan due to the difficulty, cost, and then refocused efforts on a domestic attack. Just glad someone like that is behind bars. Wonder how many more of these lone wolf wackos are out there holding these views.

 

[ASTROID2]

Way to attack a secret society that hasn't been relevant in over a century.

Maybe that's exactly what they want you to think. Its crazy how close to where I live this was happening.

 

[The Faceless Master]

so was this person a legitimate threat or just another one of the crazy dudes from the local mosque they give all the plans and equipment to then trot around for a few days to show they are 'doing their jobs' in the war on terror?

 

[JaggedSac]

so was this person a legitimate threat or just another one of the crazy dudes from the local mosque they give all the plans and equipment to then trot around for a few days to show they are 'doing their jobs' in the war on terror?

This is interesting.

 

[Shaanyboi]

so was this person a legitimate threat or just another one of the crazy dudes from the local mosque they give all the plans and equipment to then trot around for a few days to show they are 'doing their jobs' in the war on terror?

?

 

[Calvero]

so was this person a legitimate threat or just another one of the crazy dudes from the local mosque they give all the plans and equipment to then trot around for a few days to show they are 'doing their jobs' in the war on terror?

I'll stick around to see how this goes.

 

[Chariot]

?

It is known that a least in some cases, US authorities recruited people in the first place, giving them ideas and ressources, fanning extremism, only to then bust them to toot success against terror.

 

[derder]

Very cool. Also good to know that this was possible through gun sales.

 

[PeskyToaster]

Probably because most people when offered a chance to kill 30 people wouldn't start buying guns but would report them to the suthorities or say no.

 

[bill0527]

so was this person a legitimate threat or just another one of the crazy dudes from the local mosque they give all the plans and equipment to then trot around for a few days to show they are 'doing their jobs' in the war on terror?

FBI = the local mosque ?

 

[Madness]

so was this person a legitimate threat or just another one of the crazy dudes from the local mosque they give all the plans and equipment to then trot around for a few days to show they are 'doing their jobs' in the war on terror?

Going by what was released to the media and news sources, he was a legitimate threat. People who knew him described him as militant, and he only came into the radar of authorities when he was planing to go to Israel and attack soldiers, join in the current situation in the West Bank. But that was going to be too costly and tough so he started planning a domestic attack and reached out to people who turned out to be undercover FBI agents. Once he bought the guns and silencers from them, they arrested him. Basically an undercover sting.

This isn't something that is there to 'trot out' as propaganda on doing the war on terror, but capturing someone who had plans to kill as many people as possible. Obviously they're not going to share details as to how he came into contact with the undercover FBI agents or who they were, but I'm assuming he got in touch with them because he didn't want to draw attention buying guns from shops or something.

 

[jchap]

I have no pity for anyone that falls in to a trap where the bait is mass murder

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

This is interesting.

?

I'll stick around to see how this goes.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/08/fbi-terrorist-informants

Over the past year, Mother Jones and the Investigative Reporting Program at the University of California-Berkeley have examined prosecutions of 508 defendants in terrorism-related cases, as defined by the Department of Justice. Our investigation found:

• Nearly half the prosecutions involved the use of informants, many of them incentivized by money (operatives can be paid as much as $100,000 per assignment) or the need to work off criminal or immigration violations. (For more on the details of those 508 cases, see our charts page and searchable database.)
  
• Sting operations resulted in prosecutions against 158 defendants. Of that total, 49 defendants participated in plots led by an agent provocateur—an FBI operative instigating terrorist action.
  
• With three exceptions, all of the high-profile domestic terror plots of the last decade were actually FBI stings. (The exceptions are Najibullah Zazi, who came close to bombing the New York City subway system in September 2009; Hesham Mohamed Hadayet, an Egyptian who opened fire on the El-Al ticket counter at the Los Angeles airport; and failed Times Square bomber Faisal Shahzad.)

https://theintercept.com/2015/03/16/howthefbicreatedaterrorist/

But if Osmakac was a terrorist, he was only one in his troubled mind and in the minds of ambitious federal agents. The government could not provide any evidence that he had connections to international terrorists. He didn’t have his own weapons. He didn’t even have enough money to replace the dead battery in his beat-up, green 1994 Honda Accord.

Osmakac was the target of an elaborately orchestrated FBI sting that involved a paid informant, as well as FBI agents and support staff working on the setup for more than three months. The FBI provided all of the weapons seen in Osmakac’s martyrdom video. The bureau also gave Osmakac the car bomb he allegedly planned to detonate, and even money for a taxi so he could get to where the FBI needed him to go. Osmakac was a deeply disturbed young man, according to several of the psychiatrists and psychologists who examined him before trial. He became a “terrorist” only after the FBI provided the means, opportunity and final prodding necessary to make him one.

Human Rights Watch report on terrorism prosecutions

Former FBI agent Michael German told us:

Today’s terrorism sting operations reflect a significant departure from past practice. When the FBI undercover agent or informant is the only purported link to a real terrorist group, supplies the motive, designs the plot and provides all the weapons, one has to question whether they are combatting terrorism or creating it. Aggrandizing the terrorist threat with these theatrical productions only spreads public fear and divides communities, which doesn’t make anyone safer.34

In many of the sting operations we examined, informants and undercover agents carefully laid out an ideological basis for a proposed terrorist attack, and then provided investigative targets with a range of options and the weapons necessary to carry out the attack. Instead of beginning a sting at the point where the target had expressed an interest in engaging in illegal conduct, many terrorism sting operations that we investigated facilitated or invented the target’s willingness to act before presenting the tangible opportunity to do so. In this way, the FBI may have created terrorists out of law-abiding individuals.

The FBI appears to have frequently targeted particularly vulnerable individuals with mental or intellectual disabilities. At least eight of the defendants in cases we examined showed serious signs early on that they struggled with mental or intellectual disabilities—diagnosed mental health problems or significantly low intelligence or difficulty comprehending basic concepts.

You get the idea. It's right to be sceptical whenever the FBI 'catches' a terrorist.

 

[7DollarHagane]

Good on the FBI for setting the bait and catching the bastard.

Also interesting how an illegal black market weapons purchase led to this arrest and probably saved lives. Sometimes the systems we have to catch illegal gun sales do work.

Also, all that bullshit about FBI stings doesn't bother me one bit, not any more than child pornography stings where they entice the perpetrator.

A jury can decide if the person was mentally unstable or ill.

 

[JaggedSac]

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/08/fbi-terrorist-informants



https://theintercept.com/2015/03/16/howthefbicreatedaterrorist/



Human Rights Watch report on terrorism prosecutions





You get the idea. It's right to be sceptical whenever the FBI 'catches' a terrorist.

Interesting. How was this not entrapment?

 

[boiled goose]

Interesting. How was this not entrapment?

This is interesting and should temper or global terrorism fear mongering, BUT... with potential terrorists and child molesters im ok with the government providing low hanging fruit to catch these fuckers.

As long as they are not overly instigating, Im ok with it.

 

[Johndoey]

Interesting. How was this not entrapment?

By all accounts its totally entrapment.

 

[boiled goose]

By all accounts its totally entrapment.

For some reason, if you get entrapped into trying to murder 30 people I feel little sympathy...

Im a huge progressive when it comes to civil liberties but for some reason I dont really care here.

I guess the problem is that entrapment can easily be abused... so yeah... there should be ways to catch these people without violating laws (not sure what counts and doesn't as entrapment)

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

This is interesting and should temper or global terrorism fear mongering, BUT... with potential terrorists and child molesters im ok with the government providing low hanging fruit to catch these fuckers.

As long as they are not overly instigating, Im ok with it.

Click the links and read the stories and reports. These are not drug or child porn stings where they identify people with a history or predilection for those things and target them.

The FBI finds law abiding people who have shown no signs of extremism and spends months actively grooming and encouraging them down that path. It's abhorrent.

 

[boiled goose]

Click the links and read the stories and reports. These are not drug or child porn stings where they identify people with a history or predilection for those things and target them.

The FBI finds law abiding people who have shown no signs of extremism and spends months actively grooming and encouraging them down that path. It's abhorrent.

I'll take you at your word. In that case it is disgusting and you are right that it then seems like a PR move rather than actual work.

 

[Wind's Howling]

The FBI finds law abiding people who have shown no signs of extremism and spends months actively grooming and encouraging them down that path. It's abhorrent.

Wait, what? Really?

That is just batshit crazy if that is their supposed fight against terrorism.

 

[Woody Invincible]

Maybe that's exactly what they want you to think. Its crazy how close to where I live this was happening.

Most local masonic temples are where middle aged guys who hate their wives/families go and pretend to be important and part of a secret society and pay dues to the acual freemasons.

 

[FreezeSSC]

Interesting. How was this not entrapment?

Same way an under cover officer coming up to you offering sex for money isn't entrapment.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Interesting. How was this not entrapment?

Because you still have to actually say "yeah sure let's go commit terrorism".

I agree that they're counter-productive actions done to create extra evidence that the FBI is working hard, but it's not like they're threatening to kill your puppies if you don't go along with the plan. The only argument for entrapment in these cases is the subjective defense that these individuals would never under normal circumstances committed these crimes, but I have a hard time believing that applies to people who go along with plans to commit mass murder.

The Wikipedia article on entrapment has good links to existing case law on the subject.

 

[Hydrophobic]

Interesting. How was this not entrapment?

I'm not a lawyer, so take my word with a grain of salt, but I believe for something to qualify as entrapment you have to be coerced into doing something you wouldn't otherwise do. Being given the means to commit a crime you wouldn't otherwise be able to commit (e.g. being furnished with guns) does not count as entrapment. Being told 'commit this killing spree or I'll kill your family' does count as entrapment.

This is a comic that written by an actual lawyer that explains entrapment. It's useful if you're looking for good hypothetical scenarios that are and are not considered entrapment.

 

[Carlius]

Way to attack a secret society that hasn't been relevant in over a century.

do you really blieve that? lol

 

[Mr. X]

Were these real machine guns? Wtf what if he got away?

 

[xRaizen]

Were these real machine guns? Wtf what if he got away?

They're probably loaded with blanks. If not, they would most likely have a dozen officers at the ready for anything that could happen.

 

[Slime]

Honestly surprised this was Islamist-related and not some Alex Jones-type, given the loony stuff far-right truther nutbags think about Masons. Then again they mostly share the same conspiracy theories anyway.