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Senate Investigation: Russia Did Interfere with Election

mustardman

Banned
There's plenty of left wing and centrist perspective here. Not sure how this is some right wing haven just because the field is more level than ever...
If you think this is a reasonable level debate then I would implore you to expose yourself to more social circles. I would consider myself a centrist, so believe me that TheOtherForum irks me as well. The rejection of baseline facts and bending over backwards to support dear-leader is not healthy debate and shouldn't be seen as a healthy right-wing perspective. You can still lean right and acknowledge Trump's flaws, and this forum has very few users willing to open there eyes and do that.
 

BANGS

Banned
If you think this is a reasonable level debate then I would implore you to expose yourself to more social circles. I would consider myself a centrist, so believe me that TheOtherForum irks me as well. The rejection of baseline facts and bending over backwards to support dear-leader is not healthy debate and shouldn't be seen as a healthy right-wing perspective. You can still lean right and acknowledge Trump's flaws, and this forum has very few users willing to open there eyes and do that.
I think this is a reasonable level of political debate for a video game forum. Compared to most others, this is actually is really good one. Most usually lean so heavily one way or the other that it's impossible to have a debate of any sort. Here we have enough reasonable people to carry an argument for more than 3 posts before it turns to complete shit...
 

ResurrectedContrarian

Suffers with mild autism
Russia "interfered," but in the matters of a nation comparable to itself. It's amusing to see the level of moral outrage at that fact, given the US tendency to interfere dramatically in places where the comparable level of influence and wealth is minuscule and easily overpowered. Take even a momentary glance at the level of money donated by various US-based progressive orgs that is funneled with the explicit and sole intention of using its power to re-engineer public beliefs (on sexuality, birth control, etc) in nations that are far smaller than us.

In any case, if you sincerely believe the answer to what happened in 2016 is "Russia," the bigger problem here is that you're missing one of the most significant populist revolts in US history, one that has to be reconciled with somehow regardless of where you land on the fitness of Mr. Trump (I, for one, am no fan of him, but recognize that he was catapulted by a popular dissent that is more real, relevant, and salient than all foreign influences combined). You won't be capable of reading anything of what is happening historically in this century going forward if you hold to a bizarre faith that Clinton - the status quo of America's ruling classes, both as a war hawk and as a remarkably cynical user of whichever identity politics seemed to poll well for her base - would have somehow sailed on towards another necessary Historic victory if not for those pesky outside influences.
 

i_am_ben

running_here_and_there
The right-wing continues to revel in the fact their country was "cuckholded". What a bunch of "betas"!

Sad!
 

mustardman

Banned
Russia "interfered," but in the matters of a nation comparable to itself. It's amusing to see the level of moral outrage at that fact, given the US tendency to interfere dramatically in places where the comparable level of influence and wealth is minuscule and easily overpowered. Take even a momentary glance at the level of money donated by various US-based progressive orgs that is funneled with the explicit and sole intention of using its power to re-engineer public beliefs (on sexuality, birth control, etc) in nations that are far smaller than us.

In any case, if you sincerely believe the answer to what happened in 2016 is "Russia," the bigger problem here is that you're missing one of the most significant populist revolts in US history, one that has to be reconciled with somehow regardless of where you land on the fitness of Mr. Trump (I, for one, am no fan of him, but recognize that he was catapulted by a popular dissent that is more real, relevant, and salient than all foreign influences combined). You won't be capable of reading anything of what is happening historically in this century going forward if you hold to a bizarre faith that Clinton - the status quo of America's ruling classes, both as a war hawk and as a remarkably cynical user of whichever identity politics seemed to poll well for her base - would have somehow sailed on towards another necessary Historic victory if not for those pesky outside influences.

Nowhere did I say anything about Hilary or why Trump won the election. I'm not sure why many on the right feel the need to bring Hilary in as a Bogeyman any time DearLeader is threatened. Finding the truth in the Russia investigation is completely Independent of the many likely reasons Trump won. To be clear so we can move forward, I also dislike Hilary and I agree that populism had tons to do with it.

The issue is we don't fully know the extent which Russia influenced the election or how deeply(or if) Trump colluded, and many on the right simply want to shut the probe down. For the same party that was fine with 9 investigations into Benghazi that all concluded nothing was wrong, how about 1 investigation into Russian collusion?

To your first point, sure the US interferes globally and that is wrong, and should stop in my opinion. But if we care about US democracy we can't allow it to occur against the US. Let's also be clear that it's not just progressive organizations pushing their own interests globally. Again, there is no need for whataboutism when we can just address the problem at hand.
 
for a video game forum

And Trump was a Reality TV star. There are no barriers left to discuss politics. I agree with the other parts of the post, but if I’m on club penguin and some guy starts spouting off on politics, I ain’t gonna hold back because of the setting.
 

BANGS

Banned
And Trump was a Reality TV star. There are no barriers left to discuss politics. I agree with the other parts of the post, but if I’m on club penguin and some guy starts spouting off on politics, I ain’t gonna hold back because of the setting.
Of course not, that's not what I meant by that. What I mean is that two random club penguin fans probably don't know shit about politics, hence the quality of discussion is pretty shit... Just like you see on most video game forums...

Unlike most I am willing to admit that I am not a political analyst or working in higher office, so my knowledge of politics in general is slim compared to those who actually should be discussing such things. But it is what it is...
 
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ResurrectedContrarian

Suffers with mild autism
Nowhere did I say anything about Hilary or why Trump won the election. I'm not sure why many on the right feel the need to bring Hilary in as a Bogeyman any time DearLeader is threatened. Finding the truth in the Russia investigation is completely Independent of the many likely reasons Trump won. To be clear so we can move forward, I also dislike Hilary and I agree that populism had tons to do with it.

I also dislike Trump as a person and voted for neither, opting for a protest vote instead. So he's definitely not "dear leader" to me, but I also don't think you can deny that the main force and thrust of this Russia topic has been an attempt to discredit the reality of recent populism, and to patronize voters by suggesting they were easily swayed by disinformation rather than genuine grievances with the current political state of affairs.
 

Bolivar687

Banned
“The Russian effort was extensive, sophisticated, and ordered by President Putin himself for the purpose of helping Donald Trump and hurting Hillary Clinton.”

This is a lie.

Facebook released the ads, we know beyond a doubt that they were disparaging both candidates and why they did it. The Kremlin's primary goals were twofold: 1) exacerbate the divisions within our society and 2) compromise the ability to govern, for whoever won the election. I think it's safe to say at this point that they've succeeded on both fronts, beyond their wildest expectations. True, in the bigger picture, we know Russia preferred Trump to Hillary. Coincidentally, the United States, we now know, also preferred Trump to Hillary and it would not surprise me if much of the world, if not most if they really had to choose between either disease, feels the same, too.

The problem with the Russian canard is not its partisan implications, it's the fact that we're all singing along to a song that was composed in a Brooklyn campaign headquarters. The Shattered authors are not conservative hacks or right wing conspiracy theorists - following the election, the Clinton team really did engineer a narrative to undermine a democratically-elected administration. Their confederates publicly and unashamedly set up the Moscow Project to disseminate the idea and the media has not just played along, they've turned it into a full-fledged Broadway production. Coordination between losing campaigns, wealthy special interest groups, and billion-dollar media conglomerates to cast aside the results of a democratic election is, flat out, evil, and far more dangerous to our democracy than the online misadventures of glorified banana republics.

Don't get me wrong, foreign interference is a very big deal and our intelligence agencies should do everything they can to combat this. That's why I thought it was absolutely unthinkable for Obama to order our intelligence agencies to stand down, because he thought it might undermine Hillary's mandate. Her conspirators (including the President of the United States) not only rendered us susceptible to the Russian attack - they're now working overtime doing everything they can to ensure its maximum effectiveness. Their determination to unilaterally impose this dying, deceitful, morally bankrupt demagogue upon the nation has not only torpedoed the Democratic Party and exposed our republic, it's destroying our comraderie to the extent its tearing apart families.

This is not going to end how you think. Republican pundits are already prepared for the endgame, circulating talking points that there is no statute which would make this a crime. We will never reach the Congressional threshold for impeachment. With Neil Gorsuch succeeding Justice Scalia, after he passed during Obama's term, Trump has already delivered them the impossible. For Constitutionalists, Federalists, and Christian Conservatives, there genuinely is too much at stake for this to in any way diminish their support for the Republican party. As much as I hope Trump is made to answer for the extent to which he cooperated with any Russian efforts, I have no faith that Congressional Republicans will follow through, and I'm actually very scared about how the Establishment Left is going to react to that. We've already seen ideological extremism physically clashing in violence at tense moments. I don't think we truly appreciate just how dangerous the situation in our country is right now.

Fortunately, there's an alternative: we can have Democracy. We can challenge Trump on the things we can't accept and work with him on the things we want. And we can absolutely hold his team accountable, independent of how I feel about their political opinions. But it's becoming increasingly hard to believe the drawn out nature and resuscitation of these investigations are serving the interests of our nation, or if they're only providing solace to the delusions of the defeated, pouring salt on the wounds already inflicted by Moscow, and giving comfort to the worst political criminal in our history, as she travels the world falling down staircases and fracturing her wrist on gold-plated Indian bathtubs.
 
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Composer

Member
Our generation has been saying the USA have meddled with others' elections all our lives we know this. But, certain demographics have been denying any involvement of Russia and this past election. It started with 'Oh, there's no way! Lefties are delusional', to 'Of course they meddled!'. We're only months away from 'How could Trump NOT take help from Russia, I know I would!'.

Who cares if Trump let the Russians help him, that just makes him a smart business man. Hillary would never be smart enough to play Putin like a fiddle the way Trump did. Trump is a cutthroat, the type of aggressive president we need.

They should call me Nostradamus. Except it took a few hours.
 
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The average american didn't even see those ads. And they were just saying things that actual americans were saying. Seems a bit insulting to say americans only hated Hillary and the establishment because russia brainwashed them with a few ads. Only thing that had any weight was the dnc "hack" and last I heard we had no definitive proof of who did that. Clintons campaign massively outspent Trumps and she had most of the media in her pocket yet Russia was able to effectively counter all that with a couple of thousand dollars of social media ads? I don't buy it. It was a drop in the ocean of special interest groups trying to convince people how to vote.

Anyway I'd argue Cambridge Analytica had way more effect and it was a much more sophisticated and well funded operation to influence voters.
 
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Ridcully

Member
re is something about good intentions in it, South vs North Korea, Eastern vs Western Germany.

American intervention is about improving America's lot, even these examples. Let's not pretend the motivation is benign.

So we shouldn’t be upset if another country started killing our civilians with drone strikes on US soil, then, since we’re guilty of that in our engagements in other parts of the world?

If Pakistan started bombing American weddings and then hitting the first responders who came to help the wounded because they had second hand intelligence from someone who thought there might maybe possibly be a bad guy there, perhaps Americans would grasp how it is that people become radicalised and stop doing it.

Is this massive empathy gap the real explanation behind why US foreign policy is so shit?
 

Gun Animal

Member
Our generation has been saying the USA have meddled with others' elections all our lives we know this. But, certain demographics have been denying any involvement of Russia and this past election. It started with 'Oh, there's no way! Lefties are delusional', to 'Of course they meddled!'. We're only months away from 'How could Trump NOT take help from Russia, I know I would!'.

Jokes on them, I've been saying "of course Russia is helping to save America from Liberalism and Democracy, I hope based Putin occupies America and creates a new Byzantine Empire!" since 2016

no joke, i said this to my boss during the final days of the election and all he said back was "man shut the hell up, ol' kremlin ass"
 

llien

Member
American intervention is about improving America's lot, even these examples. Let's not pretend the motivation is benign.
Outcome is easy to see, US intervention ends with South Korea/West Germany, Russian intervention North Korea/West Germany.
"But why we are doing it" is quickly escalating into conspiracy theories.
From what I see, and it's merely an opinion, US is doing what a policemen would do, in a lot of cases.
 

Dad.

Member
Yes they did interfere. So now you all can sleep better at night knowing its not really Hillarys fault that lost the election, it's those damn Russians who cheated her out of a victory.
Why create a straw man in this thread?
 
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