D
Deleted member 13876
Unconfirmed Member
Lefty here and I personally would prefer a normal d-pad.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Engadget: A look at the redesigned Steam Controller
- Thread starter ashecitism
- Start date
Lefty here and I personally would prefer a normal d-pad.
KidGalactus
Member
Downgrade, confirmed.
Candescence
Member
The redesign seems reasonable, doesn't really sacrifice any functionality aside from the touch screen.
Overall, I honestly think this is probably gonna be the best gamepad ever for the buttons on the back alone, those are genius. The trackpads might take some getting used to, but they'll probably work fine, I'm excited about the haptic input. The 'd-pad' is far better than the shitty 360 pad, at least.
I'm finding the various complaints more hilarious than anything, it's just ridiculous.
Overall, I honestly think this is probably gonna be the best gamepad ever for the buttons on the back alone, those are genius. The trackpads might take some getting used to, but they'll probably work fine, I'm excited about the haptic input. The 'd-pad' is far better than the shitty 360 pad, at least.
I'm finding the various complaints more hilarious than anything, it's just ridiculous.
Am I the only one who feels like the left pad should be an analog stick and the right side should be the only pad? The left side is supposed to act like the keyboard which is just pressing keys for direction controls while the precise aiming comes exclusively from the right hand. Having the left side also as this touchpad seems counter-intuitive.
Its past time that developers include 360/DS4/Steam controller assets with their games and allow us to choose the prompts that appear via a menu option.
How can you not see the value in such a proposition?
I want to play classic games that aren't compatible with modern standards, or those with gameplay/inventory systems that aren't conducive to a standard analog controller.
How awesome would it be to play some classics from your couch such as System Shock 2, Deus Ex, Planescape Torment, Neverwinter Nights 2, or Morrowind? How about having some fun with your friends in Starcraft 2, Dota 2, or Civilization V?
unholyrevenger72
Banned
If motion controls have taught us anything, gamers are bigoted to the point of irrationalism
ashecitism
Member
Not sure what Linux has to do with this. The controller works under Windows and OSX too.
I agree that looking at this whole initiative as a mass market product, Valve did a really bad job pitching it, there's no way around it. However Valve aren't about that pitch anymore. Just look at GO. This time last year it was struggling against 1.6 and Source now it's the second most game played on Steam. They're totally fine with starting out slow and iterating till said thing becomes better. Now whether this approach will succeed with hardware or not is left to be seen. Initial impressions to this change overall aren't good. People are taking this as lack of focus or sign of weakness due to bending to bad press. No, it's not. Back at the announcements Valve were upfront about how user feedback will shape their direction with this. They didn't send out 300 kits for nothing.
Just like how they were upfront that it's not for everyone and their fine with it. You prefer kb&m, monitors or other controllers? Good for you (and even better for them as long as you use their service). This is an extension to Steam after all.
The way Valve handle this is totally antithetical to how the console guys handle business and probably the major reason why this initiative provokes strong reactions.
ashecitism
Member
Someone put up the survey Valve sent out to testers recently: http://imgur.com/ZqRysFv
Is this still launching in the middle of 2014, or am I just pulling shit out of my head? I could of sworn it was the middle of this year. I'm really excited to get my hands on one. Day one buy for sure.
Re Wii U comments.
It's was kind of jarring to me to have to constantly move my thumb down to hit the face buttons, and that is my worry here too.
I don't know if it's an unfamiliarity thing, or actual ergonomics, but I feel way more comfortable moving my thumb up to hit face buttons when playing an FPS, than moving my thumb down to press them like you have to do on a Wii U.
I still wish they put more triggers on the back too. You could split the back triggers into four buttons each which would give you 6 buttons as opposed to 2.
Re Wii U comments.
It's was kind of jarring to me to have to constantly move my thumb down to hit the face buttons, and that is my worry here too.
I don't know if it's an unfamiliarity thing, or actual ergonomics, but I feel way more comfortable moving my thumb up to hit face buttons when playing an FPS, than moving my thumb down to press them like you have to do on a Wii U.
I still wish they put more triggers on the back too. You could split the back triggers into four buttons each which would give you 6 buttons as opposed to 2.
family_guy
Member
I think legacy support will still suck. If new games have dedicated control schemes that are designed for the Steam controller then that's something I would be interested in. Either that or maybe devs will patch official support into some of the older, still popular games.
Legacy support works. There are videos of it working really well.
Games like Deus EX and System Shock 2 will go from unplayable on the couch to playable on day one. Civ will be fun on the couch.
I'd pay full price for this controller if all it did was legacy support. The APIs and native support are icing on the cake.
Ranik Regana
Neo Member
I liked old model better, but I guess this one will be more compatible with old games which use 360 pad buttons.
Sentenza
Member
I'm almost starting to wonder if there is a single person in this thread that watched the video.
Because they're labeled with directions. Much like the original buttons being called ABXY, it was an absolutely stupid move by Valve to label them this way. They're causing the confusion.
I like this version of the controller, but they are bringing all of these problems on themselves.
Sentenza
Member
But in this case there isn't any problem. They are four buttons and yes, the yare labeled with the directions of the D-pad because that's precisely what the yare going to be used for in legacy mode.
But for any other future use? They are four more buttons.
"But what if I don't want them for menu navigation but as an actual d-pad?"
That's what the trackpads are there for.
"But what if the trackpads aren't good enough to play games with?"
That would be an entirely different issue, and a far more serious one than the lack of a "proper" D-pad, given how versatility is supposed to be the strong point of this controller.
Kydd BlaZe
Member
Really anxious to try this controller out.
Sentenza
Member
Confusion about what?
Are you simultaneously ignoring everything in this thread while complaining about how people don't get it?
I get so frustrated whenever I come into Steam controller threads for this reason.
There are some subjects on GAF I wish I could just discuss, but get buried under a literal mountain of ignorance.
You are exactly right, there is some serious consumer confusion surrounding this product.
But if you are in Valve's place, what can you possibly do to curb this? I have seen hundreds of posters on GAF alone refuse to read the available information or watch the videos on the subject.
I know there are some issues with the product overall, it is a product designed to fill a distinct niche and I wish we could appropriately discuss it.
I gave up as well. The problem is a majority of people here do not want to discuss it as they have no interest in it or understanding of its purpose, even with all the videos and reviews made available. You can put as much evidence out to illustrate what's going on but it just ignored for more hyperbole and misinformation. A frustrating experience all round
Sentenza
Member
I read every single post so far but I still don't get your point. I don't think it's "confusing" to not have a "proper" D-pad, and the new redesign was specifically made to address possible confusion, it doesn't increase it to any extent.
For one, they should have seen the problems regarding the "dpad" and the original buttons. People assumed ABXY were meant to be standard face buttons because that's the standard. They assume the thing with the arrows is meant to control your character because that's an understood language for controllers. If the buttons weren't labeled that way, there wouldn't be nearly the backlash. You can't expect people to research your product when an initial glance makes it look like it is awful for very basic reasons.
Sure it doesn't. The dominant discussion about the "terrible dpad" doesn't exist, there isn't a single person in a forum full of consumers who are in general better informed than the average consumer who is confused by the new buttons.
ashecitism
Member
Why not? People can just plug in their fighting sticks or preferred controllers and play with those. But it's not like I haven't posted vids before of testers playing those games with the SC using the trackpads.
D
Deleted member 22576
Unconfirmed Member
I was super duper excited for this last year, but after using a DS4 for the last 6 months I'm not sure this controller is for me anymore.
Sentenza
Member
People on this forum making a mountain out of a molehill? Shocking, that never happens.
Here's the thing; there's no "confusion" because these four buttons can *actually* work as a substitute D-pad, and even better than the average for what the D-pad is actually used in nine games out of ten: menu navigation.
For that tenth case where they would actually use the D-pad as a way to control direction, they have TWO trackpads that are supposed be to be completely competent at covering that function.
On top of that, you have any other possible scenario (i.e VR-focused games) where those four buttons can be used in new ways.
Sentenza
Member
I guess who cares really A LOT about fighing games would set himself with a dedicated periferal suited for them (an arcade stick).
For everyone else, I have no idea why a trackpad is supposed to be particularly worse than a traditional D-pad.
But of course, we all know that having a terrible D-pad crippled the 360 controller's popularity immensely, right...?
It all comes down to those trackpads, in the end. I'm a bit skeptic about them being good enough for some games (and actually fighting games aren't among the ones that concern me) but I'm at least open to try them before dismissing the whole thing. And if they will work well enough to replace analog sticks, then they can surely work just as well as replacements for a D-pad.
If they don't, then as I already said we are in front of a far bigger issue than lacking a D-pad, especially considered what use of it most games make these days.
The touchpad's work well as a dpad, so having an actual dpad is a waste of time. There are plenty of opinions out there to demonstrate this
Also check tommy refenes - creator of super meat boy, who was perfectly happy playing his own game and spelunky, with his only complaint being that he needed a way to feel abxy... which is now possible
It seems like there is just too much that people don't understand
Do people even understand that the response of people using the touchpads in their dpad legacy mode received great reviews so far?
Do people even know that the firmware is dynamic and the touchpad can function as a dpad analogue stick or trackball, with haptic feedback altered to match?
Do people realise that the complaints from users so far have been a want to feel the buttons (now solved) and the long learning curve to getting used to a simulated trackball?
Do people know that legacy modes and native support will behave completely differently?
The thing isn't out and is still in active development, so information is not easily available, but for other topics, I take the time to understand the OP and what information is available as opposed to drive by posts (which is not a reference to you, but other posters) that would rather avoid reading/watching anything, and just watch a gif or image. There are a few topic on GAF that simply don't get a decent discussion because of this and this is one of them
ashecitism
Member
Eh, impressions are pretty mixed on that. It seems to works with fighting games and (some) platformers, but with FPS the WASD emulation isn't that great apparently. The right trackpad which is used for mouse emulation has gotten more positive reviews.
Marvel
could never
For sure, having never held the thing I can't pass a complete judgement on it. But erm yeah... cautiously skeptical right now. Hoping it surprises and that I like it when I do try it out.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
Buttons work just fine for WASD.
I agree completely. Which is exactly why they should have used different labels than directional arrows for those four buttons. My argument isn't that there should be a traditional dpad (or even that the original design should have had traditional face buttons...I do believe that, but that's beyond the point), it's that they should have known that (A) buttons are not a substitute for a traditional dpad and (B) that people would see the controller and immediately assume the buttons with arrows are meant to be a substitute for a traditional dpad. The same way they should have known in the initial reveal that using the labels of ABXY would make people think the buttons near the center were supposed to accomplish the same tasks as face buttons.
As for the rest of your questions, no. People do not realize that. Because they see the design, they see what appears to be face buttons in a terrible position or what appears to be the worst dpad in history, and they say "Fuck it, I'm out" and don't bother looking any further.
â Narayan
Member
Looks super sexy. I can't wait to play with this thing.
You're right. Nobody here could possibly be confused by it. Let's just take a straw poll. Say, the first 25 reactions in this thread. The "hardcore gamers" understand, right?
....Oh.
Kagoshima_Luke
Gold Member
Why should everybody use arcade sticks? That's like cutting someone down for complaining about poor 360 controller support in a flight sim, because "everyone should be using a flight stick."
People like using a dpad for fighting games and 2D platformers. It's a legitimate concern.
Sentenza
Member
...Which is exactly how it is.
In fact, I wouldn't take seriously any flight sim that claims to be completely playable with a 360 controller.
I don't see any confusion. I see people not liking it, which is a completely legitimate opinion.
Graphics Horse
Member
And that was with the touchpads only.
I'm not sure the directional buttons are even intended for intensive dpad use, maybe more like the 4 distinct buttons that almost every 360 game treats them like.
Senor Kami
Banned
I still see it and think it's turned backwards but I'm glad they added buttons. Now it's viable for any game on consoles as well as whatever pc games the trackpads are good for.
Candescence
Member
I figured I might as well throw this over here - over at Sonic Retro, there's a guy who happens to have one of the prototypes, and he's been talking about his experiences with it. In particular, one of the big points he makes is that the directional buttons aren't technically meant to be a d-pad. That job is meant for the trackpads, and he claims that they can work superbly well as such:
Innovation sometimes requires throwing out aspects that some people would consider essential to the thing you're working on, in order to see if you can't replace it with something better. Valve making a dual-stick controller would be pointless, because that's what the fucking 360 pad is for. If you think Valve are going to put sticks on their controller, you are utterly deluded. Working out the kinks is what the beta is for, but the 'traditional' front button layout and shoulder buttons are about the only traditional thing Valve are gonna be doing with the controller, everything else, they're trying something new, and I applaud them for it. The dualshock design should not be the be-all and end-all of controller design.
TheSonicRetard @ Sonic Retro said:ICEknight @ Sonic Retro said:
the difference being a cell phone screen is touch activated and provides no tactile feedback aside from vibrations, where the touchpads can be switch activated to provide a real, literal, physical button depressing.
In other words, the difference between sliding over glass with every slightes contact being represented as input, and depressing an actual button on the left side of the pad to move left, with only that button being depressed being recognized as input.
Which is a pretty huge difference.
ICEknight @ Sonic Retro said:
Because they're not directions as separate buttons. They're a cluster of 4 buttons that are labeled with directions. And I explained why they "need" to be like that - because a d-pad resides in that location on most other controllers and developers/beta testers demanded a consistent labeling scheme to make on-screen prompts match in games with legacy support.
EDIT: To explain better, because people honestly still sound confused about how the touchpads work and feel (and because a number of people parrot incorrect inferences about the way the touchpads feel based off of visual inspection -- I.e. "the pad can't be used for fighting games very well"):
The two touchpads are actually two dish-shaped giant buttons that physically depress. They have the throw of an average playstation or xbox or nintendo or sega controller button, to the touch, when you depress them, they feel like giant, concave buttons in the center of the controller where your thumbs rest. The surface of these buttons is a capacitive touchpad, meaning that these two buttons can tell where your fingers are on the button.
These two buttons are attached to powerful and advanced actuators that provide haptic feedback. Most people don't fully understand what haptic feedback is - the most complex haptic feedback that most people have felt is rumble from a controller or phone, which is blunt and not directed. The haptic feedback in these touchpads is much more advanced - in addition to being able to set duration and strength, you can also set sound and direction of feedback. So, where in a typical controller you feel blunt rumble - a sort of blob of haptic feedback that just occurs in every direction in your hand - these touchpads give you localized rumble that only each thumb feels, and that rumble has direction.
There appears to be a lot of myth and misunderstanding about how this haptic feedback feels to the user. I'll admit my previous vocabulary in talks (not necessarily on this board) may not have conveyed the sensation these cause well enough, so I'll be more deliberate with my words. You don't feel buttons or shapes with this haptic feedback - haptic feedback won't make you believe there is a smaller, circular button residing in the top portion of the right touchpad where the triangle button would reside on a playstation pad. Haptic feedback isn't that advanced yet.
What haptic feedback can make you feel, however, is inertia and motion. You've no doubt heard people lament about how good the right touchpad feels as a replacement for the mouse, because when they swipe their finger across it, they feel like the pad is spinning in that direction. They can feel it spinning, they hear it spinning. Their thumb feels like it's in a trackball, and that trackball is rotating in the socket. That's the direction of the haptic feedback. By vibrating localized portions of the pad in concert, and moving the areas that are vibrating, it can simulate the feeling of inertia. Given the dished shape of the pads, this translates, in our heads, to the feeling of controlling a ball. We can spin the ball in any direction we wish, and we'll swear we're feeling a physical ball spinning in the direction our thumb swiped.
Haptic feedback is not the solution to making you feel like you're depressing a button. But the good news is that the thing this haptic feedback is occurring on is a button. A large one that takes up the amount of space that d-pad or analog stick would. Even better is that the same effect we use to make us believe we are spinning a ball with our thumbs can be clubbed and shortened to feel like we are rocking a ball around a pivot. Doing so is very simple to do, and valve's own legacy support already includes this. When I move my thumb the left side of the left pad, I feel like the pad is rocking to the left. I feel like it's shifted and now my thumb is slightly tilting the entire pad to the left, like a rocker d-pad would feel.
Now here's the current problem - valve's legacy support accepts input upon contact with the touchpad. In other words, it ignores the fact that they are buttons, and instead activates upon contact. So, while I still can feel the pad rocking in place, it's too slippery and I can't rest my thumb anywhere without recording input.
The good news is that A) valve has a mode in beta where you need to press the button to activate input, turning the touchpad into a large, physical d-pad that they demoed to the super meatboy devs, and B) devs like myself are making the preference for an activator switch heard and, at least recently on the steamOS dev forum, they said they're working on bringing such a mode to public.
To conclude, when you combine the need to physically depress the button to activate input, combined with the ability to make it feel as though you are rocking the touchpad around a central pivot, along with the physical groves on the touchpad that you use to orient yourself, you find functionality that is as good as any d-pad out there. I know, I've tried it myself. I've done tests using this setup in native mode. It honestly works.
Anybody bitching because those 4 buttons in a diamond formation, labeled up, down, left, and right, won't feel like, say, the sega saturn d-pad and thus won't be suitable for platformers or fighting games or whatever are missing the point. You already HAVE a d-pad of that quality right in front of you. This stuff is still in development, that's why it's not in stores right now. The kinda of kinks I'm describing are precisely why it's in beta, so they can be ironed out by launch.
tl;dr: the touchpads can actually be superb d-pads, and everything you want the 4 buttons to be.
Innovation sometimes requires throwing out aspects that some people would consider essential to the thing you're working on, in order to see if you can't replace it with something better. Valve making a dual-stick controller would be pointless, because that's what the fucking 360 pad is for. If you think Valve are going to put sticks on their controller, you are utterly deluded. Working out the kinks is what the beta is for, but the 'traditional' front button layout and shoulder buttons are about the only traditional thing Valve are gonna be doing with the controller, everything else, they're trying something new, and I applaud them for it. The dualshock design should not be the be-all and end-all of controller design.