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The nostalgia argument

I'm playing a lot of stuff via emulators right now and it's quite amazing. Love thee emulators that add AF and enhance resolution and add AA and all this stuff. Makes the older games looks amazing so interesting topic.

So far I have yet to run into a game I haven't played in a long time and thought the same as I do with a lot of SNES or Genesis games: most have aged very well and the gameplay is just as strong as it was over a decade ago. Resident Evil 4 is something I have to get use to though. So used to dual stick moving / aiming.

People just have different tastes and less patience to learn a control scheme or the nuances of some games
 
Best games I've played for the first time last year were from PS1 and 2. In many cases, games that have supposedly aged ,,badly'' only were average back in the day to begin with or only shined through graphics or something.
 

Neff

Member
Using the term nostalgia in an attempt to dismantle someone else's argument simply makes them look stupid.

Nobody has any idea what someone else's threshold for nostalgia versus objectivity is, much less strangers on the internet. Nobody has any idea whether the person they're disagreeing with last sampled the game/movie/tv show in question, or how old they were at the time, or now.

And that said, most sensible people are able to discern between nostalgia for nostalgia's sake, and a piece of art which continues to legitimately charm them in its own right. For example, I loved Star Wars when I was a kid. And I still love it, because it holds up to my adult values. I loved the Transformers cartoon when I was a kid too. I no longer love it, because it is and always was absolute shit. As an adult, I can see that quite clearly. But I do nurse a warm fondness for it- and I think that's the difference 'nostalgia' wielders are trying to badly articulate.

Nostalgia is a factor in critique, but for most people not an overriding one, and generally speaking is the war cry of the forum warrior whose argument has hit a brick wall.
 
It is really interesting and at least partially unique to games I think, how modern controls or other changes can "ruin" older things for you. There's a lot of zeitgeist in gaming, certain things can be very hard to appreciate for a number of reasons--genres become over-populated, control schemes change, expectations in graphics, storytelling change, performance issues happen.

I still love it to this day, but I can certainly imagine someone growing up on 120hz PC games going back and finding Ocarina of Time and it's 20FPS nauseating for instance. I personally find a lot of NES games hard to appreciate because the controls are awkward at a very basic level. Mega Man and SMB3 are huge exceptions, but stuff like Kirby's Adventure (which at least looks lovely) is really clunky. I enjoy Kirby's Adventure still, but I really like the Kirby series and it looks so good, I'm not as kind to lots of other NES games.

And lots of early 3D games have extremely weird control schemes that must have made sense when they were novel or at least been no worse than average, but now that 3D control is pretty standard (and I mean, it's not hard with dual analogs) it can be weird to go back.

Which is where the Tomb Raider thread references are being made here (although SOME people bringing that up don't really want others seeing that to read thru that thread...)

The "fancy graphics goggles" can be more blinding than the nostalgic ones.

I like "Infatuation goggles", myself.

Outdated ideas do not mean a game isn't as good as it was before, or that isn't not as good as modern games

A lot of indie games use "outdated" ideas and styles that often ape older games, but to say they're all worse than modern cutting edge AAA games because of that would be absurd

In the same way black and white films are outdated, films with no cgi effects are outdated, but these do not diminish them, though if people dislike black and white films or flimsy special effects then its understandable they'd take less enjoyment out of those works

The Souls games are practically revered because of their outdated systems, how many other modern games send you back to start of the level if you die? That's very much a gaming convention that has all but left the current AAA sphere

This is where the line cuts for me:

Iterative succession

Serendipidous perfection

Aborted evolutionary lines

People who've changed

Iterative succession is where a game has largely been surpassed by its successors overall. Warcraft 1 vs Warcraft 2 was a good example; same aim, but 2 is bigger better and badder than 1 on most accounts. Legend of Grimrock 2 takes 1's formula and runs with it in a similarly successful drive forward. Street Fighter 2 blew 1's doors off to a near-infinite degree, and so on.

These are always a case of the latter being better. "Nostalgia" often doesn't really get used as a debate tactic, as few will argue the early ones are better than the latter.

Serendipitous perfection is games where everything just lines up, often at the end of alot of mechanical, narrative, and pacing tinkering over a period of time. Third Strike, Civ 4, SSB Melee, NHL 94. The lines of that subgenre of game continue on, but many argue that combination of goal and results haven't been surprassed by anyone attempting something in the ballpark since.

This gets the "Nostalgia" handwave quite a bit, especially by strident fans of later, quite good iterations. Apples and oranges. Much salt ensues.

Aborted evolutionary lines doesn't mean that no one does that kind of game any more, but it does at least mean that the GOALS of that genre have swung to far different directions. Wizardry games where the dungeon itself wears down on your reserves and not pacing for a boss...games like Souls, Unreal/Quake, and OG Tomb Raider that have very specific controls that demand strong understanding to play and mastery to win with, or MMOs where us the players are not required to win to enjoy themselves and cooperation and competition between individuals on a long-term basis is.

These are ground zero for "Nostalgia" bombs. Note also how much of this isn't in perfected later alternate, but of an easier, simpler later alternate...

And finally, some people just change. They don't understand those who like these classics; hell, they wouldn't even understand their old selves!

Again, much salt and argument.

What's really bad about this is it masks problems that need fixing iteratively and enshrines Player Bribery in its place in the queue to be fixed. Also does a real disservice to classics that have a few facets that iteratative change has fixed (System Shock 2), but the rest of the game is arguably head and shoulders above later games at those facets.
 
"Maybe you want to point out how I've discredited some dissenting opinions offhand? The rest of this post is discrediting dissenting opinions offhand"

I mean, you're literally doing the exact thing you say you don't want other people to do, including the "but reasonable people will acknowledge" No True Scotsman argument. If someone doesn't agree with you, then they're not "reasonable people"

And no, I don't want to argue anything, because:
Except I didn't discredit anyone's opinion and that wasn't a "no true Scotsman"...

"Reason" is a pretty common basis for what can generally be agreed upon. You'll see it in law and other places. At some point, we need to make assumptions on what reasonable people can agree upon. If you think that no gameplay mechanics have ever been improved upon then, yes, quite frankly, you are not reasonable and can't possibly be engaged in a reasonable discussion on the matter.

I didn't say that all older games have outdated mechanics. I said that sometimes mechanics objectively get outdated. Plenty of examples of that in this thread. I said sometimes nostalgia is really what's at play and pretending it doesn't exist doesn't make you any better than someone else who claims that all appreciation for older games is based on nostalgia.
 
Well, I'm out.
Good. The thread is littered with specific examples of why that "opinion" is not reasonable.

If you're trying to talk about the rotation of the earth, you eventually have to stop acknowledging the guy insisting the world is flat.

Also, just to nitpick because why the hell not, me discrediting you after is not proof that i discredited anyone's opinion before. I said "I didn't", not "I don't and never will."
 

terrisus

Member
Good. The thread is littered with specific examples of why that "opinion" is not reasonable.

If you're trying to talk about the rotation of the earth, you eventually have to stop acknowledging the guy insisting the world is flat.

I haven't "argued" anything with you other than that you were doing the exact thing - dismissing certain opinions out-of-hand - that you said you didn't want others to do.

If you can't see that, that's your loss.
 
I haven't "argued" anything with you other than that you were doing the exact thing - dismissing certain opinions out-of-hand - that you said you didn't want others to do.

If you can't see that, that's your loss.

Maybe you can help me see. Perhaps we don't understand each other.

You claim that by stating that
things do get dated and [some] newer games have improved on the mechanics of older games
I have dismissed some opinion offhand. (I have added the brackets to clarify the statement.)

Now, what opinion is being dismissed out-of-hand?
Is that "opinion" one that can be reasonable disproved? If it can be, is the dismissal really "out-of-hand"?
 
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