vandalvideo said:

I gave a number of different well known people who have conducted studies like Socarides, Mintz, etc. Their studies claim to have 30% or more of their people change from homosexual to straight.

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ivysaur12 said:

You listed names. You failed to give how those studies where conducted, what their findings exactly entailed. I asked for links, not anemic summaries.

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vandalvideo said:

Hypothetical. Even in your hypothetical, he was still born to african-american parents. Just because he grows up in a house hold doesn't change his biological ancestry. And like I said, even if race were changeable, I stand by my earlier statements. I would support such means by Congress to limit or restrict freedom, until a new test is developed.

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ivysaur12 said:

You listed names. You failed to give how those studies where conducted, what their findings exactly entailed. I asked for links, not anemic summaries.

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vandalvideo said:

Hypothetical. Even in your hypothetical, he was still born to african-american parents. Just because he grows up in a house hold doesn't change his biological ancestry.

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Mercury Fred said:

But if he didn't know and no one knew, then what? It's done, it happened. And who cares if it's hypothetical. It's at least as sound as the practices of "ex-gay conversion."

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gofreak said:

And just because you train yourself to come when fucking a girl doesn't mean you've changed your natural, biological sexuality.

As is, changing sexuality is as unproveable as changing race as far as I can see.

And it is IMMATERIAL to issues of protection and equality in anycase. Immutability is NOT the qualifying factor. If you think it is, you're quite a dangerous person who I hope never enters into government office.

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As is, there have been case studies in which people had claimed to change their sexuality. Until it is proven that sexuality is immutable, which it hasn't been, and there is evidence to the contrary, we cannot grant it sanction under the criteria. And whether we like it or not, immutability is part of the current test.

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vandalvideo said:

You're more than welcome to go and find their studies. It isn't like I'm able to directly link you to database resources or anything. If you're a university student, it isn't hard to type in Charles Socarides.

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Mumei said:

Some of you need to at least attempt to back up your claims. Where are these examples of people who have changed their sexual orientation? I don't give a damn about what they are identifying as, either - I want examples of men who got a hard-on exclusively for other men and had no physical arousal to women changing his orientation so that he stopped being physically aroused by men and was only aroused by women. And it does not count if some closet-case marries a woman and fantasizes about a man to get it up on one of the rare occasions when he has sex with his wife, either.

If reparative therapy works, why does nearly (and I only say nearly because there might be one that I don't know of that disagrees) every major psychological organization in the world say that it is not only impossible, but potentially dangerous? If it does work, why did two of the founders of Exodus International criticize their organization as fraudulent and claim that not one person had been healed?

Where is this supposed evidence that homosexuality is not immutable?

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vandalvideo said:

It doesn't matter if he knew or not, he is still most assuredly of the black race.

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ivysaur12 said:

NARTH. That's your defense.

Ok. Great. I'm done here.

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ivysaur12 said:

NARTH. That's your defense.

Ok. Great. I'm done here.

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Mercury Fred said:

Not really. He looks white, he acts white, he thinks he's white. Seems to pass the "ex gay" smell test that you're lending legitimacy to here.

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neojubei said:

So when are the gays going to deal with racism in the gay community? Yea it does exist.

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vandalvideo said:

*Shrugs*

Socarides claims there were.

Besides, we ought not treat them as immutable until its been shown they are.

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vandalvideo said:

*Shrugs*

Socarides claims there were.

Besides, we ought not treat them as immutable until its been shown they are.




But he is still very much of that race's ancestry. Besides, I reitterate, even if it were the case that race can some day be changed, I would still support ventures by Congress to limit freedoms until a new test is developed.

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krypt0nian said:

NARTH. Now you sound like an idiot.

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Mumei said:

And I claim to be able to telepathically communicate with invisible pink unicorns, but you wouldn't believe me unless I gave you some evidence.

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vandalvideo said:

But he is still very much of that race's ancestry.

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vandalvideo said:

As is, there have been case studies in which people had claimed to change their sexuality.

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vandalvideo said:

Until it is proven that sexuality is immutable, which it hasn't been, and there is evidence to the contrary, we cannot grant it sanction under the criteria. And whether we like it or not, immutability is part of the current test.

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vandalvideo said:

At the same time, I won't say that you're insane until I'm given evidence that you are.

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vandalvideo said:

At the same time, I won't say that you're insane until I'm given evidence that you are.

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Mumei said:

No one said Socarides is insane - just laughable.

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gofreak said:

That's not enough to prove it is mutable. It's no more proof than the 'italian' proving he's italian in Mercury Fred's example who swears by his italian ancestry because he doesn't know any different when really he was born black.

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That being the case, does that mean in your country it's OK to discriminate in terms of employment and government rights and benefits etc. on the basis of religion? Handedness? Eye colour? Skin colour (as opposed to race)?

If that's the case could I, as the government of your country, start enforcing discrimination against all those but blonde-haired, blue-eyed, white-skinned christians with double-d breasts?

Because we could all become that if we really wanted. You might laugh at this example, but it shows how foolish immutability would be as a criteria for whether discrimination is OK or not. Where I'm from you cannot discriminate on these factors, and even some factors that aren't even natural parts of the human condition - things like religion for example.

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vandalvideo said:

I'm not trying to prove its mutable. Far from it. I'm merely showing that it may be the case that it is mutable.

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You people haven't proven your case that it is immutable either.

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vandalvideo said:

'm not a politician, I'm a legal mind. I could care less what you people care about. All I care about is the law. If the law tells me its alright to kill people, I'll listen.

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vandalvideo said:

You people haven't proven your case that it is immutable either. I'm not going to treat them as immutable until they've actually been proven to BE immutable.

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vandalvideo said:

If NARTH conducts a test and some people turn straight, I'll believe it.

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vandalvideo said:

If it is the case that these people are no longer protected, I most assuredly will uphold anything that doesn't run contrary to the government. I'm not a politician, I'm a legal mind. I could care less what you people care about. All I care about is the law. If the law tells me its alright to kill people, I'll listen. To quote Sir Thomas More, "I cannot in rightful concious throw out the law for fear of evil. For if I do so I forfeit my protections by that law to the whims of society, and I lose control over the even the devil." It is not the court's place to respond to the absurd demands of society. That is the legislative branch's job. I sit from my ivory tower and judge them.

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Mumei said:

You can't prove a negative - we believe that it is immutable because there are no reliable examples of a person who was exclusively homosexual becoming exclusively heterosexual. If there were one person who managed to do that, then we would say that it is immutable in most instances, because one example of a person switching sexual orientations does not invalidate the tens of thousands (very conservative) of people who tried and failed.

You can't even present a single person who successfully changed sexual orientation, while stories about people who failed to change are a dime a dozen, and you're trying to call us out? :lol

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Gaborn said:

NARTH hasn't done so, they refuse to release the figures of how many people their associates have "treated" as well as their definition of "success" and the number of "successes" they've had.

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Jak140 said:

Perhaps the stupidest thing ever written on GAF, right there.

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vandalvideo said:

Socarides had claimed to cured more than 30% of his sample.

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vandalvideo said:

And you can 'believe' that it is immutable all you want, but your simple belief cannot be used ina court of law as a means to prove a criteria. If there are no case studies definitively proving to me that it is not the case that they are mutable, then I won't listen to them. I gave you Socardies. If you want to ignore him based on some hatred of NARTH, be my guest.

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Mercury Fred said:

And you're free to "believe" that race is immutable all you want. I gave you my example (more sound than anything from Socardies) yet you're ignoring it.

But by all means, continue to use debunked "studies" lopsided "logic" and the idea that if the law tells you it's legal to kill people then you should listen.

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vandalvideo said:

It is a shame that GAF cannot appreciate the deep philosophical roots of that statement which is grounded in legal thought from the 16th century. I cannot wantonly abandon the law because people fear that there is evil in the law. The law may protect evil to some degree, but that same law protects me. If I throw away those protections for evil, I throw away my own protection. I cannot in good conscious ride the coat tails of the populace.

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vandalvideo said:

I do not hold the active belief that race is immutable. It has merely not been proven that it is mutable.

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vandalvideo said:

Socarides had claimed to cured more than 30% of his sample.

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Jak140 said:

Funny how a little thing called the American Revolution would have never happened if everyone followed that. Or the current system of US laws you seem ready to lay your ethics down for the security of, for that matter.

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Mercury Fred said:

And it has merely not been proven that sexuality is mutable.

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Mercury Fred said:

And you're free to "believe" that race is immutable all you want. I gave you my example (more sound than anything from Socardies) yet you're ignoring it.

But by all means, continue to use debunked "studies" lopsided "logic" and the idea that if the law tells you it's legal to kill people then you should listen.

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vandalvideo said:

And I made no such attempt to claim it was. I merely showed that there is a possibility that it may be.

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The fact of the matter si that GAF seems to have some hatred for NARTH which borders on the absurd.

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vandalvideo said:

And I made no such attempt to claim it was. I merely showed that there is a possibility that it may be. The fact of the matter si that GAF seems to have some hatred for NARTH which borders on the absurd.

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vandalvideo said:

It may or may not have happened, but the fact of the matter is that such a long standing legal philosophy is most assuredly sound and justified. The fact of the matter is that if we allow law to wantonly abandoned because everyone and their mom disagrees with it, we throw away the very order of society that has been built. Law is an essential tool for order. The populace shouldn't confuse the role of the judicial branch with the legislative branch. If you disagree with policy, elect someone. Don't expect lawyers and judges, bound by the law, to help.

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Mumei said:

Except you've done no such thing.

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We have disdain organization created solely to create the veneer of scientific respectability for anti-gay attitudes and you act like it's absurd that we dislike it? :lol

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Jak140 said:

:lol
Okay, slavery was justified because it was legal for so long. Gotcha.

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Mercury Fred said:

And I showed a possibility that race may be mutable. Calling a fake "research" organization with "studies" that have been debunked by every reputable authority on the matter (not to mention all common sense) =/= "hatred."

Also this is a good moment for <3 <3 <3 Gay-GAF. xoxoxo

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vandalvideo said:

And I made no such attempt to claim it was. I merely showed that there is a possibility that it may be. The fact of the matter si that GAF seems to have some hatred for NARTH which borders on the absurd.

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What about therapy intended to change sexual orientation from gay to straight?

All major national mental health organizations have officially expressed concerns about therapies promoted to modify sexual orientation. To date, there has been no scientifically adequate research to show that therapy aimed at changing sexual orientation (sometimes called reparative or conversion therapy) is safe or effective. Furthermore, it seems likely that the promotion of change therapies reinforces stereotypes and contributes to a negative climate for lesbian, gay, and bisexual persons. This appears to be especially likely for lesbian, gay, and bisexual individuals who grow up in more conservative religious settings.

Helpful responses of a therapist treating an individual who is troubled about her or his samesex attractions include helping that person actively cope with social prejudices against homosexuality, successfully resolve issues associated with and resulting from internal conflicts, and actively lead a happy and satisfying life. Mental health professional organizations call on their members to respect a person’s (client’s) right to selfdetermination; be sensitive to the client’s race, culture, ethnicity, age, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, religion, socioeconomic status, language, and disability status when working with that client; and eliminate biases based on these factors.

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Althane said:

Nor have we kept gays as slaves.

Yet.

=P

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Althane said:

Basically, if you didn't raise your head as a gay, you wouldn't get it kicked in, but you couldn't hide that you were black.

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vandalvideo said:

The presence of something like NARTH's claims brings in the possibility that they may be right. If they may be right, it may be the case that homosexuality is mutable.

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Mumei said:

and we feel that there's one of two possibilities for your goal shifting, and we'd like you to clear this up for us:

Is it A) That you aren't well-versed enough to argue it coherently or B) That you know that your position is weak and based upon lies, so you're avoiding saying anything concrete enough or citing sources that can be thoroughly debunked.

We're really having trouble deciding if you're a liar or a fool, so help us out here. Thanks!

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Mumei said:

and we feel that there's one of two possibilities for your goal shifting, and we'd like you to clear this up for us:

Is it A) That you aren't well-versed enough to argue it coherently or B) That you know that your position is weak and based upon lies, so you're avoiding saying anything concrete enough or citing sources that can be thoroughly debunked.

We're really having trouble deciding if you're a liar or a fool, so help us out here. Thanks!

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Mumei said:

and we feel that there's one of two possibilities for your goal shifting, and we'd like you to clear this up for us:

Is it A) That you aren't well-versed enough to argue it coherently or B) That you know that your position is weak and based upon lies, so you're avoiding saying anything concrete enough or citing sources that can be thoroughly debunked.

We're really having trouble deciding if you're a liar or a fool, so help us out here. Thanks!

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Mercury Fred said:

As the presence of my claims brings in the possibility that race is mutable.

Oh and also:

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vandalvideo said:

The presence of something like NARTH's claims brings in the possibility that they may be right. If they may be right, it may be the case that homosexuality is mutable.

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To the point of readily rejecting someone by mere association?

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vandalvideo said:

Which I have more than argued against.

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Ignorance does not abolish the fact.

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