Way too broad strokes there! It has plenty to do with the display.
However, in context it's clear what you mean
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What we know so far about the Nintendo NX with sources
- Thread starter Hero of Legend
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Way too broad strokes there! It has plenty to do with the display.
However, in context it's clear what you mean
Way too broad strokes there! It has plenty to do with the display.
However, in context it's clear what you mean
Yes my quote was about resolution, whether it is 240p to 4k the CPU doesn't work any harder AFAIK. The GPU is fed information from the CPU, so they do work in concert of course but most people won't understand that, so I made it cut and dry.
Ah, thank you for the explanation!
Are there particular GPUs out there that play best with, say, an A53? I'm admittedly ignorant. Just trying to see what Nintendo may go with. I could see 540p basically being the resolution, but I'm curious what type of power would then be available after everything is said and done. I'm not expecting a Ferrari from Nintendo, by the way, just considering the possibilities.
(I think the handheld will be $200. Just throwing that out there! Nintendo wants people around the world to smile, and that'd make me happy.)
Sure, I'll give you the "expected" run down from me. If they go 14nm and with AMD for the GPU, I think we will see a 128GFLOPs polaris part. This would at 540p perform slightly better than Wii U with more modern features and have about twice the polygon throughput.
For CPU, I think they will actually use the same CPUs in the Console and the Handheld. 4 A72 cores are 8mm^2 on 14nm, the new low power process Samsung has would mean that 4 A72 cores clocked at 1.5ghz would only cost 1.3 watts, the GPU should come in around 1 watt, and I think they can use A53 cores for the OS. This would give them the ability to easily port even PS4 games to the handheld.
Coming back a bit to where I expect the CPU, I think a dual core A72 clocked at 1.5ghz with 4 A53 cores clocked at 1.5ghz is exactly where I see them, this would be a tiny chip, about 6mm^2 and run about 1 watt.
60 to 80 gflops would still be a drastic increase over vita, but I don't see them going with 28nm, 14nm is mature, it is competitively priced, works out historically with the 2 year gap that GameCube and Wii both experienced for their process adoption and saves Nintendo power consumption which is something they obviously care about, not to mention that it is cheaper than 28nm starting next year since 10nm chips will have taken over the mobile market and these 14nm fabs have huge capacities that won't be used. 28nm is old, and doesn't make sense, even Wii U's old process had a reason (it was the smallest process NEC could make and they produced the embedded memory and the gpu)
ShockingAlberto
Member
$250 handhelds have a really good track record so far.
DrROBschiz
Member
I know, Vita's GPU at max speed (222Mhz) would be around 27 Gflops. Am I wrong?
The selling point of the NX isn't that both devices play every single Nintendo game ever created out of the box*, it's that if you buy an NX game, you can play it on both the console and/or the handheld. In fact, that's not even it, the selling point is that, by integrating their hardware devices into one ecosystem, they can release more games for each of their devices. Most of their customers are just going to buy one device or the other (mostly the handheld), and they want to make sure they have as many games as possible to tempt people in, regardless of which form-factor they prefer. Being able to buy a game once on eShop and play it on both devices is pretty much just a bonus on top of that.
*Which, by the way, is pretty much impossible. Unless you expect the NX home controller to also act as a Wii remote + nunchuck, and you expect them to cram a PowerPC chip in the handheld to allow it to play GC, Wii and Wii U games (never even mind how you expect to be able to control Wii games on the handheld).
Do you expect their VC profits to be entirely centred on Wii U games? There's nothing to stop Nintendo supporting NES, SNES, N64, GB, GBC, GBA games out of the box on both consoles, which will cover the considerably majority of profits Nintendo would expect to make on the service. The handheld could play DS and 3DS games out of the box, and the home console could play GC games out of the box, with Wii and Wii U games requiring peripherals.
It's not exactly something vastly confusing for customers. It's not like people are going to expect the NX handheld to play Wii games.
Nintendo's failed messaging with the Wii U had nothing to do with BC/VC and everything to do with the gamepad. Watch Nintendo's 2006 E3 conference and see how easily people understood the concept of the Wii remote. All they had to do was show a quick video of people playing Wii tennis, golf and bowling, and the appeal was obvious.
Fast forward to the 2012 E3 conference, though, and watch Eguchi attempt to explain how Luigi's Ghost Mansion works (it's about 1 hour in). Nintendoland makes excellent use of the gamepad, and it's a better game than Wii Sports in pretty much every way, but that can't overcome the fact that it's inherently difficult to explain to people the advantages the gamepad offers. Add to this the fact that multiple players needed to use different controllers, and you've got an interface that is possibly the most confusing of all time, coming after probably the most intuitive controller of all time.
And you think the controller screen had nothing to do with the $350 price?
The 3DS was coming after the 150 million selling DS, so they tried to imitate the DS as much as possible (just look at the logo). The Wii U hasn't even sold one tenth of that yet. Besides, the 3DS wasn't an attempt to create a long-running hardware-agnostic games platform. It was very firmly developed in the old school of pressing reset every 5 years or so and starting from scratch.
Actually, about five times as many people want to play Nintendo games on a screen that isn't their TV versus a screen that is their TV, judging by 3DS/Wii U sales figures, so you're quite definitely in the minority on this one.
Well of course most 3DS owners don't own a Wii U. It's statistically impossible (unless the average 3DS owner owns like 4 3DS's). But what I think is safe to say is that the set of Wii U owners who care about Wii BC are likely to also own a 3DS. And assuming the handheld NX sells more than the home console (statistically extremely likely), then I would argue that the (small) group of NX home console owners who care about Wii U BC are generally going to be Nintendo fans and are quite likely to own a NX handheld anyway.
When did I say the home console should play DS and 3DS games? Why would people expect it to? Do you think the same people are going to expect to play Wii and Wii U games on the handheld?
I know Nintendo have released some DS games on Wii U, but given the small number of titles released I wouldn't be surprised if it was simply a way to explore how well dual-screen games translate to a single touchscreen (which it turns out is pretty well).
But as I explained earlier, Nintendo's success in selling home games consoles is directly correlated to how intuitive the system's interface is. Their messaging is more complicated (and less likely to succeed) the more time they have to spend explaining just how to play the thing. The logical deduction from that is that they should make the interface for the NX as simple and intuitive as possible, and placing a screen on a controller goes in completely the opposite direction from that.
In fact, even aside from that, I think Nintendo's messaging should be distanced as far away from the Wii U as possible. If they have another controller screen it's going to immediately be seen as the follow up to the Wii U, and that's anything but good for the console in the eyes of the press, the public, and third party developers.
No matter how powerful it'll be, Nintendo just doesn't have that reputation for high price, premium products. They've always been associated with lower cost systems. The Wii hit that beautiful spot of $250 with a compelling hook and impulse buy price. The 3DS should have been $179 to begin with but the positive reception it got at E3 2010 inflated Iwata's ego.
No way the Wii U was ever worth $350. NX console should hit $299 max for a basic unit and the handheld $199 max.
No way the Wii U was ever worth $350. NX console should hit $299 max for a basic unit and the handheld $199 max.
ZeroMaverick
Member
As I explained a few pages back, at the TDP Nintendo is likely to devote to the CPU in the NX handheld, A53 cores would actually give them more performance than A72s, even on 14nm/16nm.
The 14nm process that Nintendo would be using isn't mature. Samsung's early 14LPE process which was used pretty much exclusively for Apple and Samsung SoCs was used in shipping products this time last year, but the 14LPP process that will replace it (and is being used by AMD) will only start to see product launches in the next few months. If the NX handheld uses a 14nm SoC and launches late this year, then it's probably only about 6 months into the life of the process. That's not to say they shouldn't use 14nm (I personally think they should, but only for the handheld), but that they probably won't.
I would also be extremely surprised if 10nm chips "take over the mobile market" in 2017.
Chezzymann
Member
I expect the handheld to be about the same power as the vita, maybe a little bit more powerful so that it can have games at the same graphical fidelity without the need to have terrible sub resolution stuff
DrROBschiz
Member
It should trounce the Vita in theory. 5 years gave us at least a few advancements
Chezzymann
Member
Wasn't the 3DS around the same level as the PSP though?
DrROBschiz
Member
Im just saying even off the shelf budget components should outperform vita specs 5 years later but i could be wrong
Heh. Memories of this same line of thinking in the WUST threads. "Nintendo would have to try really hard to make the Wii U as weak as the PS360. Even off the shelf parts are more powerful than those". And then Nintendo proved that, yes, they could make PS360 level hardware in 2012 on purpose. Smh.
No, it wasn't.
The differential between potential power envelopes among handhelds is much lower than between consoles.
No...? 3DS performance has been astroturfed surprisingly well it seems.
540p is more than enough.
The screen on the vita is amazing, especially compared to the 3DS, and a handheld with the same resolution but with more power is gonna do wonders.
Chasing 720p or more for handheld is similar to trying got get console games to run at 4k. Sometimes you should know when to stop.
The screen on the vita is amazing, especially compared to the 3DS, and a handheld with the same resolution but with more power is gonna do wonders.
Chasing 720p or more for handheld is similar to trying got get console games to run at 4k. Sometimes you should know when to stop.
Hero of Legend
Member
Isn't it though in polygon counts and textures in general? What really gives it the edge is its lighting and shading capabilities and other advanced features I think.
No, the PSP was particularly poly starved and didn't exactly supported advanced texture features either...
+ Steve Rabin
+ Tanner Stevens
Not sure if there is something interesting. Maybe you'll find something else on their profile.
It's worth noting that the second of those (September 2014) corresponds pretty much exactly with when AMD started working on the semi-custom design which is heavily expected to be used in the NX.
Edit: PCIe is a little interesting, though. I don't think Wii U used PCIe interfaces at all, unless someone wants to correct me on that?
Edit2: Unless it's just PCIe drivers for the dev kits.
R
Rösti
Unconfirmed Member
Interesting, I didn't know Steve Rabin had joined NTD. But it's no surprise considering his background at DigiPen.
Fourth Storm
Member
No PCIe in Wii U afaik either. There was the 60x interface w/ the CPU, SATA for the disc drive and everything else was USB.
But yeah, I suppose this could deal w/ the SDK for PCs.
Fourth Storm
Member
Hey, sorry this has taken so long. I was all set to respond yesterday, but I just haven't had the energy to do much writing lately. I saw your mockup in the other thread, and I really like it. It's probably the closest to my expectations that I've come across. We seem to agree on some type of touch area being a better scrolling solution than mechanical wheels for a handheld.
As I've said in other posts, I do think that they'll either stick to a simple and elegant shape with the handheld and allow grips and possibly triggers to be snapped on via controller shell. I also think that they will have to redesign their analog sticks somewhat. Their current products are way to prone to slippage and the click feels terrible. No way in hell that click would be a satisfying or reliable way for Mario to jump. So they're going to have to tweak those inputs somewhat.
I can't get behind doing away with face buttons completely. Even if they have one on each side under the sticks, (think of the giant 'A' button on the Wii Remote), that might be enough.
For the home controller, I've been a bit more confounded. They may opt for a similar look, but with a capacitive touch pad surface in place of the screen. They could throw your traditional cross pad and diamond face buttons on there as well, as consoles are typically geared more towards core gamers and western gamers at that. I mean, even Amazon's box and those iPod/Android controller shells have this standard config, so it would probably be more off-putting not to include one, especially since your virtual buttons wouldn't be possible without a screen.
While I love the idea of a rotary dial touch screen around the sticks, I doubt that they'll include any screen on the home console controller. I do think it would feel and work great (there's a Nintendo patent which details dual vibrators, so you could have one dedicated to each virtual jog dial). I'm not so sure that they'll even have a full circle around the sticks in the HH, though. Looking at the Free Form patent again:
Hmm, easy manufacturing may be the deciding factor here.
An elliptical would be easy to slide into one's pocket, but I'm thinking those sides might be a bit too...pointy? Then again, Nintendo had us using the Wii Remote sideways for many games, so you never know. I said in a previous post that a track shape may be too similar to Vita, but this is the same Nintendo which designed and released the Wii U Pro controller, which is clearly inspired by the 360 pad. A track shape also has the bonus of being in their logo.
I'm gonna stick w/ the 540p consensus and also take IHS' word that the initial handheld will have a 3"-5" screen. My guess is closer to 5, but the Free From display would definitely make for some wacky number in the horizontal.
I'm just gonna post a picture of the Pokken controller, because the X-Files fan in me believes there are secrets hidden in its design.
James Scott
Banned
Sorry if this sounds dumb, but why does it matter that it's exactly half?
DapperSloth
Member
I think that they will use a handheld-type device that acts as a "GameBoy" when you want to take it with you, and when you come home, connect it to the NX home console and the "GameBoy" is now a controller for the NX.
So, the controller IS the handheld that can be used both with the NX console and as standalone handheld on the go.
The patents that we have seen suggests just that. A controller with a screen (like the WiiU-Gamepad but smaller, more handheld device) that you control and can take with you.
So, the controller IS the handheld that can be used both with the NX console and as standalone handheld on the go.
The patents that we have seen suggests just that. A controller with a screen (like the WiiU-Gamepad but smaller, more handheld device) that you control and can take with you.
lensoftruth
Member
images scale much cleaner at multiples
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Wouldn't Smash Wii U require a 16 GB game card without discs? We haven't even had an 8 GB 3DS card I think. Has Nintendo brought down the price of reliable solid state media (via Macronix of course) enough for a port of Smash Wii U? I guess removing any flash memory intended for saving (requiring SD card or HDD space for example) might drive the price a tiny bit.
I'm really curious how Nintendo will do physical media on NX. I hope they don't do anything stupid like digital-only.
Solid state game carts and cards are fantastic. I hope it's feasible. Discs being back on console would be fine too if not.
I'm really curious how Nintendo will do physical media on NX. I hope they don't do anything stupid like digital-only.
Solid state game carts and cards are fantastic. I hope it's feasible. Discs being back on console would be fine too if not.
Fourth Storm
Member
That's the big question, isn't it?
That'd make the console a bit too pricey.
If NX console can play NX handheld games then it would scale very nice on a 1080P screen whereas it wouldn't if the screen was 480/720p.
Also what kind of ARM cpu are on 28nm node that realistically Nintendo could use on its handheld? I don't think they will go with a 14nm node with an Arm CPU
James Scott
Banned
Yeah. Vita games at native res seem fine enough especially if the screen is smaller
Yeah, that's what I figured. There isn't anything in the Wii U which would make sense to use PCIe for. Then again, if the home NX is using an AMD APU, AMD obviously have plenty of experience with PCIe interfaces, so I suppose AMD might have been pushing it?
Nah, they're going to switch from eMMC to a couple of these bad boys. Throw two of them in there and your flash bandwidth almost hits Wii U RAM levels, let alone those measly hard-drives used by the competition.
More seriously, the only real reason I can think of using PCIe internally is for flash storage. The (cheaper) eMMC solutions which we would expect them to use are only available up to 128GB, and I don't get the impression they'd go the 2.5" SATA route. That basically leaves an on-board PCIe SSD as their only option if they want to offer storage tiers above 128GB.
Alternatively, we could see the return of the EXT port, long-missed by Nintendo hardware owners. A port on the side or bottom of the device with a PCIe 3.0 x8 interface and a ~100W power output would give them a lot of options for hypothetical SCDs, including a straight-up extra GPU when PS5 and Xbox Two hit.
Actually, they could take a similar approach internally. Have USB/SATA/eMMC/etc all run from an off-chip controller linked to the SoC via PCIe. That would allow them to release future versions of the console with different storage technology, more/faster USB ports, or whatever else they like while still sticking with the original SoC.
According to Macronix, 8GB 3DS cards were ready to go back in early 2011, it just seems like no game has ended up needing them. If the home console is actually using game cards instead of discs then you would need at least 32GB and probably 64GB to accommodate it (a lot of AAA PS4 games are hitting 40GB+). I have no doubt such cards would be technically possible, but the question is how much they'd end up costing.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
I wonder if the free form display, if there is one, will be for the console controller and provide HUD information/touchscreen feedback in a neat little row.
A 960x540 resolution screen or screens for a handheld could work but I doubt people will be quite as forgiving as with the 3DS in pixel density, especially if only an XL was released in any specific region. Everyone knows the 3DS is low-res, but that's not expected of a brand new system.
A 960x540 resolution screen or screens for a handheld could work but I doubt people will be quite as forgiving as with the 3DS in pixel density, especially if only an XL was released in any specific region. Everyone knows the 3DS is low-res, but that's not expected of a brand new system.
Unfortunately, thermodynamics does not bend under the perceptions of others. And, outside of fine text with the handheld held an inch from your face, you will likely not be able to easily differentiate pixels on a 540p, 5-6" screen.
A smart phone may have a nice screen... it also is throttled to a crippling degree, runs hot, and will have the battery life of under an hour under heavy load.
Fourth Storm
Member
Don't feel bad. I've spent way too much time on some days scouring for patents, but nobody does it quite like Rosti!
That Sharp/Foxconn drama has been interesting to follow! I don't know if it matters for Nintendo, as the contract is likely already signed if it exists. Still, from what I've read, Foxconn's offer would probably work out better, as it doesn't require a restructure and doesn't touch the LCD devision. Plus, Foxconn is reportedly manufacturing NX, so that could perhaps make communication and shipments simpler. Or maybe not.
Yeah, I don't have too much to add. Glad you enjoyed the read. Of course, alot depends on how everything really works in practice, but in theory, it's a very cool concept. Nintendo should provide a discrete camera either way for AR and communication. To me, that's a better solution for a home console than putting a camera in every single controller. As for the perimeter sensors, that could end up looking alot like the bottom of the Pokken controller. It depends on how they do it. Conversely, they could opt for invisible IR emitters just for position tracking, but then you lose all that stuff in the linear image sensor patent.
You are giving me flashbacks of the playing the Virtual Boy in Blockbuster Video!
Pretty much in agreement with everything you say. Only thing is I'm not sure they'd want to cover up this hypothetical LED/sensor array. Maybe they will provide windows in the shell for them. Nintendo sold a shitton of Wii wheels and Zappers, so the concept can work well. They just need to be careful and focus on giving the products a more quality feel. Consumers have moved on from the era of cheap plastic peripherals cluttering up their homes.
James Scott
Banned
So this is only if it upscaled and not if the games are natively up rezed, right?
With my experience with iPad games that aren't native, you can zoom in/expand the image to be full screen. This is what this whole 540p talk refers to, right?
Fourth Storm
Member
I was about to say that the only thing it makes sense for is a SSD, but you brought up some other good ideas below.
I wouldn't discount a mechanical HDD. Yeah, it's moving parts, but Nintendo are changing and bottom line is that they need to keep this thing cheap while also offering a ton of storage so that they can continue to push those digital downloads. Still, a PCIe SSD may make a certain sense under the "Nintendo Overcompensation Theory" (bgassassin, 2012). This was demonstrated most famously when Nintendo went from the N64's 4 kb of texture cache to the Gamecube's 1 MB. In this scenario, it would go something like, "You say our OS is slow, do you? How do you like this shit?"
Just stop. As I posted earlier in this thread, I had a dream where the EXT port returned. Inexplicably, the handheld plugged into the bottom of the console, completely hiding the screen. Maybe player 2 would have to lay underneath a glass coffee table? My brain is trolling me.
Now, that's actually a really smart idea. Maybe it costs them a bit more up front, but the benefit to future hardware revisions is huge.
James Scott
Banned
So yeah, the 540p upscaling well likely doesn't matter much, but I do think the resolution is probably the right one to choose.
If the screen is Vita size or smaller (likely normal size at launch and XL awhile later) 540p native is more than fine. Better for the games to try and be more ambitious than try to go for 720p and failing. You can squeeze more out of the games if they go this route which will also be better for the console since it wouldn't be as held back by a portable trying to achieve 720p.
If the screen is Vita size or smaller (likely normal size at launch and XL awhile later) 540p native is more than fine. Better for the games to try and be more ambitious than try to go for 720p and failing. You can squeeze more out of the games if they go this route which will also be better for the console since it wouldn't be as held back by a portable trying to achieve 720p.
GhostTrick
Banned
720p will be worthwile when there'll be SoC available and ready to push native 720p without throttling. 540p is the resolution for a 2016 gaming handheld. And by that, I mean at native res. For what it tried to push, Vita should've been 360p.
You are only considering uprezzing, not downrezzing.
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