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TTIP and CETA close to dead

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K

KDR_11k

Member
Just as a heads up:

There's major disagreement in the EU about CETA, essentially Junker wants to push it through while multiple countries are already so unhappy they want to vote on it in their national parliaments (which will likely kill it due to popular resistance).

Meanwhile TTIP will likely fail as soon as Obama leaves office and it's nowhere near done, plus the EU and US cannot agree on many key points. For example the EU wants EU companies to bid on US government contracts which the US rejects and the EU wants its protected origin designations (basically any item with a location in the name must be produced in that location or drop the name, e.g. champagne must be produced in the Champagne region) which the US of course doesn't want. Also popular pressure in the EU has made it insist that the investor dispute system be run by courts, not arbitrators. There's been no movement on major points in a while so they won't be agreeing any time soon.

Sorry, sources in German, all the English news I see seems to be so occupied with the Brexit that this topic is being ignored:

Juncker earning massive protests over attempt to push CETA past national parliaments

TTIP failure predicted
 
B

Blader

Member
the EU wants its protected origin designations (basically any item with a location in the name must be produced in that location or drop the name, e.g. champagne must be produced in the Champagne region)
Click to expand...

ha, now that is some wishful thinking.
 
S

stan423321

Member
Honestly as a Pole I find the protected origin designations to be too harsh. Limit that to "genuine Champagne" or something like that and it would be alright. Though, granted, I don't care about champagne, I care about feta.
 
M

massoluk

Banned
Well, at least something good came out of Brexit?..

the EU wants its protected origin designations (basically any item with a location in the name must be produced in that location or drop the name, e.g. champagne must be produced in the Champagne region)
Click to expand...

Man, I have a wishful thinking that all Sriracha sauce must now be made at Si Racha
 
K

Khaz

Member
Blader said:
ha, now that is some wishful thinking.
Click to expand...

He explained it wrongly. Protected origin designations behave like a trademark, except instead of belonging to a single company, it belongs to every company in a designated area. Only some specific designations are protected that way, plenty other areas aren't protected (but are pushing to be). For example, Champagne is protected, Laguiolle isn't. Anyone can make sparkling white wine, but only companies from Champagne can call it Champagne. Conversely, anyone can make knifes and call them Laguiolle, to the chagrin of people working in Laguiolle.

Protecting trademarks is normal imo.
 
D

darkace

Banned
dave is ok said:
People are correct to be wary of trade deals like these. They haven't worked out great for countries with high costs of labor in the past.
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They've worked wonderfully for the majority. They haven't worked out great for specific sectors, but that's just how it is. Some people will lose so the majority gain.

The projected benefits for TTIP are enormous, the largest I've seen for a singular trade deal. I'd hope it goes through.
 
B

BlackLagoon

Member
darkace said:
So sad populist ignorance is destroying deals that would result in huge gains for citizens.
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You can have solid free trade deals without insisting on extrajudicial corporation coddling and tearing down long standing EU consumer protections. To me, TTIP seemed full of one-sided concessions to the US, and the EU was perfectly right to reject it.
 
A

Abounder

Banned
Politicians have done a terrible job trying to sell yet another big trade deal (that favors corporations over the working class). Not enough fear-mongering vs China and Co, and there was no propaganda even hinting about the return of the middle class dream. You'd think big businesses would be a little better at marketing these things.

Good riddance
 
Hari Seldon

Hari Seldon

Member
People are wising up to this shit. Our corporate overlords can't pass this shit and just throw some small tax break for "retraining" as recompense.
 
O

oti

Banned
stan423321 said:
Honestly as a Pole I find the protected origin designations to be too harsh. Limit that to "genuine Champagne" or something like that and it would be alright. Though, granted, I don't care about champagne, I care about feta.
Click to expand...

Feta > Champagne

All day every day
 
S

sohois

Member
E-phonk said:
That's how it happens in the EU. Champagne can only come from the champagne area, otherwise it's called cava (spain) / prosecco (italy) etc
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Actually Prosecco is made differently from Champagne, with a lot more sugar added. Champagne will have anywhere from 4-12g of sugar added depending on how dry it is, whilst prosecco has 25g added. Italian wine produced the same way as Champagne is from the franciacorta region and will be named thusly.
 
G

G.ZZZ

Member
From all i've read, it was basically only lowering EU standards of production and protection of food trademarks to grant the ability to the US to kill us with their food supercorps. Good fucking riddance.
 
F

Famassu

Member
Blader said:
ha, now that is some wishful thinking.
Click to expand...
That's how it already is. In Finland, only Champagne that comes from the place of the same name can be called champagne, the rest is commonly known as kuohuviini (which basically means bubbly wine). :p
 
K

KDR_11k

Member
darkace said:
They've worked wonderfully for the majority. They haven't worked out great for specific sectors, but that's just how it is. Some people will lose so the majority gain.

The projected benefits for TTIP are enormous, the largest I've seen for a singular trade deal. I'd hope it goes through.
Click to expand...

The numbers I've seen were that the gains are fairly small because existing trade barriers are already so damn low. The main problems with these treaties are the ISDS systems (allowing companies to sue states for "lost revenue") and the US pushing more restrictive IP laws on others (e.g. the EU doesn't allow software patents, other concerns were patent medicine access for poorer nations though that's probably more for the Pacific version TPP). They had EU citizens especially worried about lawsuits over environmental or consumer protection laws as the US is notoriously lax on those.

Famassu said:
That's how it already is. In Finland, only Champagne that comes from the place of the same name can be called champagne, the rest is commonly known as kuohuviini (which basically means bubbly wine). :p
Click to expand...

The rule already applies within the EU, the US wanted to get rid of it to allow American companies to use those terms too.
 
S

smurfx

get some go again
Khaz said:
He explained it wrongly. Protected origin designations behave like a trademark, except instead of belonging to a single company, it belongs to every company in a designated area. Only some specific designations are protected that way, plenty other areas aren't protected (but are pushing to be). For example, Champagne is protected, Laguiolle isn't. Anyone can make sparkling white wine, but only companies from Champagne can call it Champagne. Conversely, anyone can make knifes and call them Laguiolle, to the chagrin of people working in Laguiolle.

Protecting trademarks is normal imo.
Click to expand...
i think tequila works the same way in mexico. you can only call it that if its made in jalisco and other parts of mexico.
 
F

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Let me quote myself on the whole protected origin designations thing:

Funky Papa said:
But why can't I call it Parmesan cheese?

Well, protected designation of origin (PDO) and protected geographical indication (PDI) are hugely important for producers. This is one area I'm familiar with it due to my family working in agriculture. Both PDO and PDI-branded goods are grown, raised and/or produced in controlled fashion according to clear quality standards. PDO and PDI certificates are not issued at random, but only to regions that happen to produce goods of particularly high quality or reputation.

A wine from La Rioja is much more than fermented grape juice from a particular region of Spain. It is made from an officially sanctioned variety of grapes in controlled quantities and aged at well defined ranges at a number of towns. It's a relatively complex and stringent regulatory system that allows for consistent quality assurance and reviewing. Nevertheless, La Rioja wineries have to fight with a number of foreign producers that claim to sell "Rioja wines", when in reality it's just terrible plonk that damages the brand and dilutes the value of authentic Rioja wines.

Even more outrageously, there's the case of unscrupulous Spanish, Italian and even Chinese pig farmers selling substandard cured hams as Jamón Ibérico, when actual Ibérico has a vastly superior taste, texture and aroma owed to the breed of the pigs, a nutrition based on acorns and vigorous physical exercise, which makes for a ham unlike any other, with bright red meat and incredibly soft and thin layers of marbled fat that melt at room temperature. Those fake ibéricos come from industrial farms and they are not subject to the same veterinary inspections as proper ones, which is not a joke. We are talking about cured meats after all, which means that there's a health risk on top of a fraud.

Similarly, some people have been trying to pass terrible Eastern European truffles as Italian and Spanish black ones, when the difference in quality is staggering accounting to soil and climate.

Basically, PDO and PDI are much more than just a brand or a luxury halo. They ensure consistent quality and standards. As a matter of fact, producers from a PDO/PDI region that decide to break regulations will lose their certification and risk severe fines in accordance.

As for the Italian oil fraud, that's a different issue since it involves both the FDA and Italian authorities. The EU is relatively clear on this subject, but Italy has its own problems enforcing the law since they are dealing with activities closely related to the organised crime. I'm outraged at a personal level by the amount of thieving companies buying Spanish oil, bottling them in Italy (or even elsewhere!) and then selling them at exorbitant prices in other countries as "premium Italian oil", which is a well known issue. Next time buy from an tested Italian brand or just buy some good Spanish one. One is not better than the other.
Click to expand...
 
C

Condom

Member
Who cares about the possible economic benefits for corporations if it impacts so much other things that people hold dearly. We have standards.
 
E

El-Suave

Member
runningjoke said:
Can we get rid of this Juncker character? We didn't vote for him and he sounds like a dictator
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It's representative democracy, just one more step removed from the voter. The system could be greatly improved, I don't dispute that - but it isn't entirely undemocratic. And having 28 countries vote directly on that job would be almost impossible. Every country would nominate their own candidate and people would vote for the guy from their country in the hope it brings them advantages. Edit: I'm also glad that TTIP might be gone.
 
D

Deleted member 80556

Unconfirmed Member
Also popular pressure in the EU has made it insist that the investor dispute system be run by courts, not arbitrators.
Click to expand...

Just because of this, I'm glad this thing is dying. Finally 2016 is killing something that should really die.
 
W

Walpurgis

Banned
G.ZZZ said:
From all i've read, it was basically only lowering EU standards of production and protection of food trademarks to grant the ability to the US to kill us with their food supercorps. Good fucking riddance.
Click to expand...
Yup. Smells like crap. Now for the TTP.
 
F

Famassu

Member
G.ZZZ said:
From all i've read, it was basically only lowering EU standards of production and protection of food trademarks to grant the ability to the US to kill us with their food supercorps. Good fucking riddance.
Click to expand...
TTIP was about so much more than just food. It would've given big multinational companies even more power (i.e. the ability to sue countries if they ever did anything remotely negatively impacting to those companies; say a country not letting a mining company proceed with mining to protect nature -> the mining company could sue and would probably win), it would've neutered environmental protection a lot at a time when it should be strengthened as much as possible and generally just put the general populace at a worse position when it comes to their rights vs. big corporations. EU would probably have lost a lot of jobs & been generally worse off economically as well.
 
P

PdotMichael

Banned
Famassu said:
TTIP was about so much more than just food. It would've given big multinational companies even more power (i.e. the ability to sue countries if they ever did anything remotely negatively impacting to those companies; say a country not letting a mining company proceed with mining to protect nature -> the mining company could sue and would probably win), it would've neutered environmental protection a lot at a time when it should be strengthened as much as possible and generally just put the general populace at a worse position when it comes to their rights vs. big corporations. EU would probably have lost a lot of jobs & been generally worse off economically as well.
Click to expand...

I said it once and got a lot of negative reactions here but Obama's foreign policy will not remembered very well.
 
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