why shouldn't prisoners be allowed to vote?
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UK to scrap Human Rights Act in favor of a British Bill of Rights
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why shouldn't prisoners be allowed to vote?
BlackLagoon
Member
But these limits on deportations... I don't know the British issue in particular, but in other european countries the "problem" is that you can't deport criminals unless you're certain the recieving country won't execute or torture them. Which in my mind is a sound and important principle.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
There isn't a prohibition on deportations. The ECHR can prevent deportation on three grounds:
Also note: that last condition is part of the ECHR, but it is *also* part of the UN Convention Relating to Refugee Status, meaning even if the ECHR was made completely irrelevant from a British perspective, it would still apply unless we left the UN. That means, for example, Abu Qatada's case, which is frequently listed as an ECHR problem, in the grand scheme of things simply isn't and the Telegraph/Mail just like misreporting when it panders to their readers.
The government doesn't actually release figures for how many appeals are successful under ECHR grounds; but the LSE's estimate is between 2 and 6% - it's a small fraction of deportations.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
AHA-Lambda
Member
WTF???!!
I thought May said they weren't going to scrap it?!
I thought May said they weren't going to scrap it?!
StrawberryJam
Member
We bloody well better.
Dirtyshubb
Member
Because they lost their rights when they broke the law, apparently...
I mean it's not like we expect prisoners to be rehabilitated and to be accepted back into society yet because of one possible mistake they could lose their rights to have their say in how the country is run.
I'm willing to say that the vast majority of prisoners are from a lower socio-economic background and so it's really just another way of taking the vote away from those 'lesser' common people who coincidentally are less likely to vote for the Conservatives. Reminds me of when republicans change voting laws to push out minorities.
The weird thing is UK hasn't left or is planning to leave the ECHR. The Human Rights Bill and the EU have almost nothing to do with each other.
QuicheFontaine
Member
That the ECHR says we should let them vote!
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Why shouldn't they?
EdibleKnife
Member
People would say it's because they "lost the right" yet they still remain citizens. It disregards that not every prisoner is someone who's there only because they did some fucked up shit. Some forget there's such a thing as being in prison for petty crimes to even being wrongfully convicted. If policies are going to affect them as much as people outside those walls, they should have a vote.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
Exactly why should prisoners not have the right to vote? I very much doubt many do, but I'm confused to exactly why a prisoner shouldn't be allowed to have a say in how his or her country is run.
Denying prisoners a vote seems like an extension of the rhetoric that everybody who's ever gone to prison is an inhuman baby-eating monster, which is obviously not true.
Anyway, for reasons already mentioned on the previous page, this probably won't actually happen because the people involved are largely incompetents with nowhere near enough legal power to make it work.
I assume a Tory Government's British Bill of Rights will be similar to how they structure their cuts; if you've got no money or are disabled, you've got no rights.
Anyway, for reasons already mentioned on the previous page, this probably won't actually happen because the people involved are largely incompetents with nowhere near enough legal power to make it work.
I assume a Tory Government's British Bill of Rights will be similar to how they structure their cuts; if you've got no money or are disabled, you've got no rights.
Oh people get plenty Sun, just not the right type.
It is strange.
It's a shame how much we're regressing backwards.
We can't block it, block it. But Holyrood can refuse to extend it to reserved matters, and the Scotland Act explicitly says that the parliament must follow the ECHR and for that matter EU law.
AHA-Lambda
Member
No fucking clue
The European Court of Justice has no problems to allow such a ban if proportionate, so it can be applied for murderers stuck in jail for decades and not for people that committed petty theft that will be released two weeks after the election. So the European Union is perfectly fine with France's ban on votes for prisoners with sentences longer than 5 years.
ClosingADoor
Member
So? Is there a party running on a "let all prisoners free" program they are putting into power or something?
Why shouldn't a citizen of your country be able to vote if he is locked up.
Black pudding. It's kind of like blutwurst, but with oatmeal in it.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Sure, and let's give children a vote on bedtime.
Edit:
Really? I'd probably be happy with that.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
It's what they leave out that I'm more worried about.
What does that even mean in relation to this?
Usually, and that seems to be the case here, abolishing the Human Rights Act in favor of a domestic solution means a government finds a particular par of the HRA inconvenient and wants to get rid of it.
In this case it seems that not being able to deport people into countries where there is a war or where they have to fear persectution is said inconvenience.
So if your parents had said you needed to go to bed at 17h despite you being 17, you would have accepted it? Kids do actually have a 'vote' on bedtime assuming their parents aren't tyrants that ignore any discussions.
Obviously, it will no longer apply to Britain as the European Court of Justice only rules on the European Union and the European Court of Human Rights - which is a non-EU entity - disagrees with this, so that will become the highest court once the Brexit is complete.
CadetMahoney
Member
Remember also Cameron wants(ed) to ban the Human Rights Bill because it is against mass surveillance:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/15/internet-surveillance-report-edward-snowden-leaks
There is even a clause in the human rights bill which could(?) undo things like mandatory porn censorship already in place or at least undo future things:
That's why Tories want to replace it with shit that let's them do anything they want since UK is so soft it allows every bullshit law to pass.
Human Rights Council to Name Expert on the Issue
https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/03/26/un-major-step-internet-privacy
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/26/un-navi-pillay-internet-privacy
^ That's directly against mass surveillance UK does and why they want to get rid of human rights bill.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/15/internet-surveillance-report-edward-snowden-leaks
There is even a clause in the human rights bill which could(?) undo things like mandatory porn censorship already in place or at least undo future things:
That's why Tories want to replace it with shit that let's them do anything they want since UK is so soft it allows every bullshit law to pass.
Human Rights Council to Name Expert on the Issue
https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/03/26/un-major-step-internet-privacy
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/26/un-navi-pillay-internet-privacy
^ That's directly against mass surveillance UK does and why they want to get rid of human rights bill.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
I imagine the 'peaceful gatherings' part will be omitted too.
But this viewpoint is ridiculous as the law isn't infallible it was only 50 years ago that homosexuality was considered a crime. if we silence people by imprisoning them and refusing their right to vote we are just suppressing another avenue of dissent. Having a vote is jsut as important of a right as having free speech imo.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Is this a stand up comedy show?
QuicheFontaine
Member
Their house, their rules mate.
And discussions =/= a vote, does it? I think you realise the difference, as you put 'vote' in inverted commas...
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Exactly why should prisoners not have the vote, in your opinion...?
Their house, their rules wouldn't hold up as children do tend to have rights. As for the quotation marks, your parents didn't hold actual elections so there wouldn't be a vote, just discussions.
31GhostsIV
Banned
I don't want to be taken out of the HRA just to have a new, Michael Gove-penned right wing bill of rights. By all means, feel free to sign your own rights away because 'terrorism' or whatever, but I'd like mine to stay intact.
Palette Swap
Member
Regardless of the contents of this New Bill of Rights, scraping an existing Human Rights Act because it goes too far looks fucking sinister.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
Because a child's vote on bedtime will effect the rest of their life and potentially their children's lives too.
Hot off the back of a Vote that is going to effect the country for decades, whatever side of the debate you are on.
Nonsense.
Our entire political and economic landscape? Yes. Most definitely.
QuicheFontaine
Member
The right to stay up as long as they want? That's a right? Don't be ridiculous.
Edit:
Erm...I feel like we may have gone off-topic...
Edit2:
Getting back to this. So...post-Brexit will we be able to ban prisoners with sentences longer than 5 years from voting, or not?
EdibleKnife
Member
Prisoners are still adults. They have the potential to change and learn from mistakes. Many have responsibilities and focuses beyond their criminal record and it's not insane to think that maybe they'd like some semblance of control over how their country is run since they're at its whim as much as standard citizens. Do you honestly think that just because you're imprisoned, you're somehow completely devoid of humanity and sense at that point? If you believe that, why not just take the vote away from ex-cons as well?
But who defines what makes someone a prisoner. It's a slippery slope because if prisoners can't vote and the government of the day has the ability to incarcerate people. Then why wouldn't they just arrest everyone who disagreed with them so they could stay in power indefinitely.
See the problem yet
My parents think like that. Prisoners don't deserve to vote because no one good will ever end up in prison. If you end up in prison, its definitely because you are a bad person and therefore have no right negatively influencing the lives of the good people of Australia.
CadetMahoney
Member
This Brexit thing, all negatives.
The leavers won't even get the main thing what they wanted.
The leavers won't even get the main thing what they wanted.
I think you're missing the point - it's not what we're being told to do, it's that Johnny Damned Foreigner is telling us what to do! We didn't fight a war, frog-eaters, boxheads, etc.
At least, I think that was the point ClosingADoor was attempting to humourously convey.
Planning to scrap the Human Rights Act, which is based on the European Convention on Human Rights, is exactly what the article is about. Did you even read it?
Unless you are now arguing about the European Court of Human Rights, but that'd be weird because the post that you're quoting makes no reference to it. It also made no reference to the EU, which you seem to think it did.
I'm starting to think you read not one of the original post, the linked article nor my post that you commented on. Good work!
That is something that can happen via other means too.
I am a British Citizen, have never been convicted of a crime and yet I have lost the right to vote.
Excessive bedtimes could infringe on civil, political, economic, social, health or cultural rights of children. Their house, their rules ignores that their house is in a greater area with rules that overrule them.
This Brexit thing, all negatives.
The leavers won't even get the main thing what they wanted.
I love that all the government needs to do is say "inmates" and people start clapping and cheering for getting rid of the HUMAN RIGHTS ACT. It's Manipulation 101 and they don't even realise it.
Yep.
Good thing we don't have country's currently detaining people because of their religion, sexual preference or colour of their skin. OH wait we do
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