Huh. I read it as Akechi had the power of the Wild Card like Joker, but your explanation makes sense, too.
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[SPOILERS] Persona 5 Spoiler Thread | Steal your heart; steel yourself
- Thread starter Nachos
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Huh. I read it as Akechi had the power of the Wild Card like Joker, but your explanation makes sense, too.
SoulUnison
Banned
He was always in my party, at least.
I rolled with Ryuji, Yusuke and Mokoto for 90% of the game.
Makoto's awesome. Usually my JRPG parties are sausage fests.
EDIT: Overall my favorite party member was Futaba, though. I can relate to an uncomfortable degree.
Autoignition
Member
Throwing my hat in the ring for Makoto. She was indispensable for me. She was a durable healer with a relatively high damage output. Never took her out of my party once after she joined.
Yusuke's second, though.
Yusuke's second, though.
ChasingComets
Member
If only for wacky art adventures.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
FallenGrace
Member
Combat or character?
Both answers are Mokoto.
I did like Yusuke though, he hits hard but I found his skills I rarely ever used. I like his character a lot after being very unsure at first.
Character wise, it's debatable. Combat wise, it's Ryuji. Nothing short of great throughout the entire game. Hoes obscene damage with Swift Strike (which is the best physical skill in the game), breaks the game once he gets Charge, scales really well on harder difficulties due to his bulk and buffing ability, etc. Makoto doesn't even learn Mediarama until level 43, and takes a while for her to learn Marakukaja, and i'd even argue that Ann is better.
It fits the pattern, but Loki was the Persona he was using to make people go psychotic, so it was his original Persona.
Hasphat'sAnts
Member
Ann's damage output was obscene once she had all the fire boost skills plus concentrate.
Makoto literally never left my team once she joined unless I needed a quick switch out. Wife status on that alone.
Also after sitting on this for a few weeks the sun/politician confidant still my favorite. Loved the overall message and ending of his story.
a tear was shed every time "Join my cause" showed up in negotiations, that's my charismatic politician
Also after sitting on this for a few weeks the sun/politician confidant still my favorite. Loved the overall message and ending of his story.
a tear was shed every time "Join my cause" showed up in negotiations, that's my charismatic politician
ShadowSoldier89
Member
she still falls short of Ryuji though, just because physical is so strong. However concentrate brings her up to second.
Its basically
Ryuji > Ann > Haru > Yusuke for damage
Haru is super stronk thanks to +75% gun damage, but still not enough to catch up to concentrate and charge.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
it increases the power of a spell (or charge a physical attack) by 2.5x, and costs less SP than a dyne spell.
So if you go Concentrate > Agidyne you do more damage and spend less SP than Agidyne > Agidyne
SoulUnison
Banned
I just realized it's a little weird to me that Joker doesn't follow the "Ultimate Persona" pattern of 3 and 4.
In 3, MC can obtain
In 4, MC can acquire
So the pattern is that the MC can obtain an Ultimate Persona that is a supercharged version of their original, using a title from the language of the mythology that inspired the Persona.
P5 Hero goes from Arsene, a Persona based on a fictional French gentleman thief, to... Satanael, essentially a conglomeration of originally Jewish mythological concepts.
I get that it happened that way to complete the symbolism of Yaldabaoth, like Messiah/Thanatos completed the concept of Nyx and Tartarus, but it still feels weird.
Like a combination of abandoning tradition mixed with a yet another possible oversight by the localization team.
Where's my "Arsene Coquin" or "Arsene Malicieux?"
(I know the game seems to lean towards "Picaro" for the "P5-ized" Personas, but that's actually a Spanish word meaning "rogue," whereas Arsene is decidedly French. Im...not really sure why they went with "Picaro.")
In 3, MC can obtain
"Orpheus Telos," "Telos" being Greek for "end" or goal," though arguably/canonically his Ultimate Persona is Messiah and Telos is more of a completion bonus.
"Izanagi-no-Okami," "no-Okami" being Japanese for, essentially, "Great God."
So the pattern is that the MC can obtain an Ultimate Persona that is a supercharged version of their original, using a title from the language of the mythology that inspired the Persona.
P5 Hero goes from Arsene, a Persona based on a fictional French gentleman thief, to... Satanael, essentially a conglomeration of originally Jewish mythological concepts.
I get that it happened that way to complete the symbolism of Yaldabaoth, like Messiah/Thanatos completed the concept of Nyx and Tartarus, but it still feels weird.
Like a combination of abandoning tradition mixed with a yet another possible oversight by the localization team.
Where's my "Arsene Coquin" or "Arsene Malicieux?"
(I know the game seems to lean towards "Picaro" for the "P5-ized" Personas, but that's actually a Spanish word meaning "rogue," whereas Arsene is decidedly French. Im...not really sure why they went with "Picaro.")
Akechi is a wild card user, so I don't think that was an Awakening.
The Spanish book Lazarillo de Tormes is widely considered as the first picaresque novel. Maybe that's why the chose that word.
SoulUnison
Banned
I think what annoyes me is that Akechi reveals Loki, someone (Futaba? Morgana? I forget...) muses that he probably has the Wild Card, and then... that's it.
Like, don't build him up as a foil to the MC, including the Wild Card, and then have him switch Personas exactly once.
It's like fighting P3/P4/P5Hero as a bonus boss fight and having them only use Orpheus/Izanagi/Arsene.
I guess on some level, though, it just bugs me that Akechi's Personae were Robin Hood and Loki.
I can't even completely vocalize why... They're just a bit too...on the nose, somehow. Not inspired at all.
Also, Robin Hood isn't an obtainable/fusable Persona, right?
Which feels a little weird since Akechi presumably started with Loki and then obtained Robin Hood somehow.
Isn't there the implication that Akechi was using the Velvet Room, too?
Or perhaps it's the opposite, and Akechi awakened Loki and Robin Hood at the same time, and the implication is that he never developed the Wild Card to the point of obtaining other Personae.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Tbf wasn't (p4 spoilers)
adachi a wildcard user too? And he only had magatsu izanagi.
SoulUnison
Banned
Huh. It's been years since I played P4 Golden and even longer since I played P4 Vanilla, but I don't remember ever getting the impression that
Adachi was a Wild Card holder.
Izanagi/Magatsu Izanagi were intended to make MC and Adachi true mirrors of each other, with the defining difference being that MC actually could form Links with others, and therefore actually use the Wild Card.
I suppose
Adachi could've been basically the same as how I feel Akechi is, possibly being a Wild Card holder but not having the mindset, experience or support to actually make use of it.
Iva Demilcol
Member
Probably because it sounds closer to "picaresque", which seems to be the genre of Arsene Lupin's novels?
Who knows.
I was playing yesterday the scene where you fight Akechi. The scene could've been more powerful if they hadn't gone for the psycho faces and over the top voice acting. Imagine Goro saying all the things he said in that fight in his usually calm and cool headed persona. They went full anime in those scenes showing how evil he was, and it didn't pay off imo.
SoulUnison
Banned
Oh well. -All- the Ultimate Personas in 5 are sort of messed up.
Johanna -> Anat is basically the only one that feels conceptually consistent.
Maybe Necronimicon -> Prometheus, too.
Johanna -> Anat is basically the only one that feels conceptually consistent.
Maybe Necronimicon -> Prometheus, too.
Iva Demilcol
Member
I like Mercurius.
I think it looks badass. In fact, all the ultimate personas look kind of badass in the artbook but their in game models don't look as good. Still, the original personas have more complex designs because we would be stuck with them during most of the game.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
I still don't know how a pirate turned into sun wu kong.
SoulUnison
Banned
I like Mercurius, too, but the progression of Zorro -> Mercurius feels... off.
Johanna -> Anat feels "right" because Anat shares elements of Johanna's design.
Necronomicon -> Prometheus feels acceptable because they share the theme of "granting forbidden knowledge."
"Baja Californian vigilante" -> "Roman god of merchants" is out of left field.
It -kind of- works if you view it as "Mysterious freedom fighter" -> "God's Messenger" in the context of Morgana being a Velvet Room being and Mercurius being a form of the Greek Hermes, but it's sloppy.
(Random aside, since I've mentioned the Velvet Room - What's up with Lavenza? She completely throws off the Velvet Room tradition of having a mundane English name. The strange "sophisticated westerner" concepts of the Velvet Room's denizens really helped to contrast them against the rest of the game and give them an "alien" feeling. I get that Lavenza is a play off of Igor referring to the story of Frankenstien, but it's a completely superficial reference, as there's really no meaningful parallels between Lavenza and Elizabeth Lavenza as characters. I -hate- when symbolism is done callously.)
The Ultimate Persona concepts in 5 just feel half-baked compared to 3 and 4, which is a shame, because almost everyone's "base" Persona is awesome, but their Ultimate Personae are disappointing to the point that I almost wish I'd left several party members at Rank 9.
Captian Kidd -> Saiten Taisen and Goemon -> Kamu Sosanoo were particularly disappointing.
I also feel like Ann's Ultimate Persona completely misrepresents her as a character.
Dangansona
Member
I'm not prepared to write anything long or read through this thread, but there are three things I have to say as this game comes to its end.
A) I really love it. I've had to read a lot of negativity about Persona 5 and it kind of bummed me out at times. But ultimately I rank it above 4 and MAYBE above 3.
B) The way they tie in the Phan site at the end is exactly what I admire about the Persona team. They are geniuses in this way at bringing all aspects of their games together.
C) Ryuji's valentines day text slayed me.
A) I really love it. I've had to read a lot of negativity about Persona 5 and it kind of bummed me out at times. But ultimately I rank it above 4 and MAYBE above 3.
B) The way they tie in the Phan site at the end is exactly what I admire about the Persona team. They are geniuses in this way at bringing all aspects of their games together.
C) Ryuji's valentines day text slayed me.
Banana Aeon
Member
Well, I finished this game, whereas Persona 4 I couldn't muster the effort, no matter how close I was.
Dangansona
Member
I think I ultimately used Ryuji - Haru - Morgana the most, which seems a bit unconventional based on this thread. They happened to be my favorite party members (except Akechi, what a betrayal that was T_T), but also a pretty dynamic group.
To be honest though I swapped in party members all the time.
To be honest though I swapped in party members all the time.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Kinda saw it coming though. You don't give me an ever increasing bar to not drop it all the way down later.
But the execution was ace. Which is kinda why I'm surprised some people felt that the ending bits fell flat. Story-wise it was more thought out and well done than 4.
Dangansona
Member
Kinda saw it coming though. You don't give me an ever increasing to not drop it all the way down later.
But the execution was ace. Which is kinda why I'm surprised some people felt that the latter parts fell flat. Story-wise it was more thought out and well done than 4.
I saw you have the same rankings for the games as me from another page lol. And yes I did mostly see it coming, but actually I thought the big hook would just be when it flatlines earlier on. Even in the moment leading up to the boss fight I didn't have much expectation of the citizens of Tokyo to wake up. I guess to some extent it was Mashima who sparked it all, which us a big boom for his character that I went from liking, to hating, to being lukewarm, back to liking again.
And since dungeons have been mentioned recently, I would say 6>1>2>4>7>3>5.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Nah, Mishima is still a dweeb. It was that iconic character flower pants man who was the catalyst for change.
Dangansona
Member
Lol what was that guy's deal? Why did he stand out so much? Was he from earlier in the game?
Also it's too bad I had only maxed out Ryuji, Haru, Shinya, and Kawakami. Made for some pathetic cutscenes when the latter two would show up (but it still kinda worked).
Kinda saw it coming though. You don't give me an ever increasing bar to not drop it all the way down later.
But the execution was ace. Which is kinda why I'm surprised some people felt that the ending bits fell flat. Story-wise it was more thought out and well done than 4.
It's a much more interesting plot than 4 for sure. But you have to be invested in the plot far more than with 4 because 5 doesn't have the same slice of life feel that 4 did.
Plot felt secondary in 4, it was mainly about these teens dealing with life in this small town, but also there was a mystery running through it. P5 is almost always about the escapades of the Phantom Thieves, even when they went on vacation.
Personally I felt this made the game's ending much stronger thematically, but you didn't end up as attached to the setting. It's a trade-off.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
No, he's just an NPC that literally replaces mishima in his big moment if you didn't max out his social links lol.
Just managed to beat the game a couple days ago. It was pretty good.
Kind of sad it took me so long to max Guts and Proficiency, though, it meant that the only Confidants I didn't max were Iwai and Haru.
Kind of sad it took me so long to max Guts and Proficiency, though, it meant that the only Confidants I didn't max were Iwai and Haru.
Hmm, maybe this is why I didn't get quite as into the main cast as P4's.
Dangansona
Member
Yes it's definitely a trade-off. Persona 4's cast clicked together so well. Persona 3 and 5 both fall under the category of a stronger emphasis on story with more of a motley crew cast. I think different people prioritize those two things differently which is why I see pretty often that 4 is either in first or last place when ranking the recent Persona games.
But ultimately I love every single party member in Persona which now that I think about it is pretty damn impressive.
Except maybe Yukiko
Iva Demilcol
Member
... and Junpei. Fuck Junpei.
Dangansona
Member
I need to replay 3 before I commit to that because overall I think I like him. I'd say he is third place for the bro characters though.
Iva Demilcol
Member
Play P3P and you'll see.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
As someone who identified pretty heavily with Kanji during my 4 playthrough I'll say this again.
FUCK YOSUKE.
I think he's pretty much the sole reason why I put 4 right at the bottom of my lists.
Junpei at least has a redemptive arc.
FUCK YOSUKE.
I think he's pretty much the sole reason why I put 4 right at the bottom of my lists.
Junpei at least has a redemptive arc.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
Yusuke is the biggest piece of shit
NESpowerhouse
Perhaps he's wondering why someone would shoot a man before throwing him out of a plane.
You know the weird thing is that Yosuke was the character I related to the most and that if I ever cosplay as a P4 character, it would be him as well.
In a series hilariously lacking in self-awareness when it comes to characterizing certain characters (Yosuke, Ann), Yusuke intentionally being a self-absorbed douchebag was fantastic.
It's pretty amusing how people characterize Yusuke as this precious snowflake. Dude's got a bit of an attitude.
KillScottKill
Member
Junpei blames you for the end of the world, asks for a favor the next day and then doesn't apologize about the whole apocalypse thing for a month and a half.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
hes also willing to blackmail someone into posing naked for him, and even after everything never even apologizes for it.
After finishing this a few weeks ago, I just feel like I didn't really connect to any of the cast outside Makoto, and even her S-Link wasn't extraordinary. Ryuji's S-Link gives him some nice depth after the game is apparently devoted to making him grating in the main story. Haru was introduced way too late with too high a proficiency gate for me to get through her link. Ditto for Futaba. Ann's was fucking awful, jesus. Yusuke's was okay but the guy just comes off as a creep too often and I wasn't a fan of the choice for voice. Morgana was pretty good and I'm glad his plot twist wasn't any of the obvious options.
He never apologizes for it because the writers fuck up just about everything when it comes to Ann.
Still, I think him blackmailing her was at least deliberate, considering his general disposition + the fact that he was raised by Madarame.
Yusuke and Futaba are great. Ryuji is stellar.
Haru is deceptively good, but they just don't work her into the plot well.
Makoto's a bit deadpan, but she has some fun moments. Ann's probably the biggest disappointment coming off her start.
Morgana is... not great. Nothing about his implementation feels natural to me. Maybe the Japanese version was just coasting on getting Otani for his voice actor, but whatever they were going for didn't come through in his english performance. He just seems really whiny which culminates in his weird escapades at the start of chapter 5. Having him around literally all the time and acting as the MC's internal monologue didn't really sit well with me either.
The idea is that he's supposed to be a veteran thief that's showing the MC the ropes while simultaneously not knowing why he's a veteran. He's supposed to have a haughty attitude and look down at the thieves. They ultimately provide an answer, but it isn't well implemented.
I think that on the whole, it SHOULD be a better cast than P4's. Outside of Rise and Kanji (Characters I don't think this game tops), P4's cast isn't really that much better than 5's. In fact, I'd say that 5's gels together better than 4's. But again, P4 was going for this slice of life feel that compliments those characters well, while 5 was very focused on external threats. Getting a new character in 4 came at the end of a dungeon, almost as a reward, and then you could learn more about them through their social link. The characters in 5 have shorter arcs that aren't as closely tied to their confidants as 4's were.
Haru is deceptively good, but they just don't work her into the plot well.
Makoto's a bit deadpan, but she has some fun moments. Ann's probably the biggest disappointment coming off her start.
Morgana is... not great. Nothing about his implementation feels natural to me. Maybe the Japanese version was just coasting on getting Otani for his voice actor, but whatever they were going for didn't come through in his english performance. He just seems really whiny which culminates in his weird escapades at the start of chapter 5. Having him around literally all the time and acting as the MC's internal monologue didn't really sit well with me either.
The idea is that he's supposed to be a veteran thief that's showing the MC the ropes while simultaneously not knowing why he's a veteran. He's supposed to have a haughty attitude and look down at the thieves. They ultimately provide an answer, but it isn't well implemented.
I think that on the whole, it SHOULD be a better cast than P4's. Outside of Rise and Kanji (Characters I don't think this game tops), P4's cast isn't really that much better than 5's. In fact, I'd say that 5's gels together better than 4's. But again, P4 was going for this slice of life feel that compliments those characters well, while 5 was very focused on external threats. Getting a new character in 4 came at the end of a dungeon, almost as a reward, and then you could learn more about them through their social link. The characters in 5 have shorter arcs that aren't as closely tied to their confidants as 4's were.
It's scary how much I agree with this, right down to Haru being deceptively good and the cast technically being better than 4's, but missing that special something that makes them truly eternal.