Hydranockz
Member
Exactly. Players can no longer lose their composure. Frustrated players will have a tendency to quicken their shots and sure enough, may kill someone, but far more often than not, the cool head wins.NullPointer said:
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Halo: Reach |OT4| This Thread is Not Your Grave, But You Are Welcome In It
- Thread starter GhaleonEB
- Start date
Yep, that was the start of all the Smurf account bullshit, I knew people that had multiple accounts, and Xbox consoles, go into MM at the same time, bridge, standby, mod the DLC maps. It was the fucking Wild West at times. I got a ton of "u got a 2 month?" messages all the time.lybertyboy said:
It was great that MS had 2 month free cards, but like anything it got abused by douchebags, all for pictures of numbers and Halo related icons next to their name, so fucking sad.
GhaleonEB said:
Oh it totally makes long range combat viable that's probably what I like about it. To me, Halo 3 was way more frustrating when at a range it was a craphsoot how many of your bullets would hit and where they would hit. That's not even accounting for the fact that the BR isn't hitscan and latency.
I think there are contributing factors to Hemmorage not being as fun as it could be and better range fighting is only one of them. Part of the problem is that there is not much incentive to go in the middle. Plasma Launcher just isn't a replacement for Rocket Launcher. Another bigger problem is that the sniper pulls double duty as anti vehicle and anti infantry so there's not really a counter against someone using it except to snipe him.
I realize that it encourages greater distances between players and absolutely love that. One of the most annoying things to me in Reach is people running up to me, meleeing to drop shields, and subsequently flinging grenades everywhere they can. This seems to happen on countdown most of the time.
What I would have liked to have seen would be for Bungie to add a bloom-less BR/Carbine to Reach's weapon sandbox as an alternate for the DMR. I think both styles of play have merit but more importantly I think introducing as big a change as bloom should not have been done without any avenue for players to play without it.
Luken said:
I don't think there has been another mechanic in a Halo game that has made me rage as much as Armor Lock. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
Hydranockz
Member
I like this guy 
xxxstylzxxx
Member
wwm0nkey said:Anyone remember when halo 2 came with 2 free months of Xbox Live and not just 2 days....ah the gold old times
Yeah I guess if you count being paired up against players with gamertags like "IAmTHEHAXzORsLOL" using aim bots and/or dropping tanks on your head every time you respawned as the good old times. It's nice to reminisce but let's not forget how much of mess Halo 2 MM was and the factors that contributed to some of the most frustrating online experiences that many of us have had to date.
Just to be clear, my core criticism of the DMR is not the implementation of bloom per se, but to the effective range it enables.Hydranockz said:
Take the DMR and drop it into various BTB maps from Halo 2 and Halo 3 (we've seen what it does to Blood Gulch already). I noted Valhalla, where base to center donging would be easy with the DMR. On Headlong you could sit at the top of the building and nail players emerging from the offensive base; on Relic players by the flag could pin the attacking players in their bases with DMR fire. On Avalanche, the open spaces where vehicles or snipers were the only threat would become unplayable, and standoffs would skyrocket. on Standoff, instead of lining up along the rocks for shootouts across the middle, players could line up on top of their bases; anyone in the middle would be caught in a turkey shoot. On Rat's Nest, the entire length of the map could be cleared with the DMR, instead of one half; the map would become increasinly boring as players out in the race track couuld be destroyed from either corner. And so on. Those were spaces intended to be cleared by the sniper rifle, not the primary weapon. I think that's a problem on display in Reach, and just adding the requirement that players pace their shots is not enough to combat it.
With the BR, players could mitigate the spread by closing distance. With the DMR, players mitigate it with their firing speed. The two have very different effects on combat, with one pushing players together and the other further apart. In the end, I don't know why bloom was swapped in for bullet spread, other than it was a mechanism that Sage liked from Shadowrun. It was clearly implented without the care that went into the BR, with respect to combat distance. Part of this could be addressed by taking the DMR back to a 2x scope from the current 3x. But I do think there needs to be some mechanism to further shorten combat range. With a single fire, precision round, the only way to do that would be to make it less accurate over distance, which everyone would hate.
It's this train of thought that has me preferential to the BR's burst spread fire over precision aim with bloom.
I may well be describing a problem a lot of people don't think is a problem, but I've concluded that Bungie's efforts to limit the average combat distance of the BR/Carbine was one that was, in hindsight, beneficial to how the games played (for one, by making map movement easier, and second, bringing more combat elements into play). I don't enjoy these very long range DMR fights in Reach, they get boring. And they really hurt how maps play when you can be constantly taken out from that kind of range; from a map design perspective, it's very hard to compensate for.
xxxstylzxxx
Member
NullPointer said:
This basically sums up my feelings as well. While the bloom mechanic may not be perfect it adds an interesting dynamic to gun battles that hasn't really been seen in previous Halo games. Having to factor in things like distance and pacing while coming up with ways to manipulate the bloom to your advantage does IMO add a significant skill gap that seemed to be missing in Halo 3. Yeah Reach has its flaws for sure but, at least for me, the game has finally hit its stride and provided me with a much more rewarding online experience than both 2 and 3 based on what I view to be a more efficient implementation of the weapon sandbox.
HiredN00bs
Member
It cracks me up when people say the BR required more skill than the DMR. Single-shot weapons always require more skill than burst-fire weapons because there is less room for error. Bloom is a mechanic that adds depth to the weapon, because your ideal rate of fire varies based on position and movement alone (there is also a degree of strategy in how you fire).
Additionally, bloom is a client-side mechanic, which improves networked gunplay, something for which the BR in Halo 3 was notorious.
By the way, did you guys see that GDC made David Aldridge's lecture available for free on their website? It's interesting:
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014345/I-Shot-You-First-Networking
Additionally, bloom is a client-side mechanic, which improves networked gunplay, something for which the BR in Halo 3 was notorious.
By the way, did you guys see that GDC made David Aldridge's lecture available for free on their website? It's interesting:
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014345/I-Shot-You-First-Networking
The Librarian
Banned
I like bloom way more in campaign and firefight than in multiplayer if that makes any sense.
But if a core mechanic doesn't translate well in all modes, it should be removed. In the past, Halo has been pretty consistent about that across all games. It's standardized, and I like it.
But if a core mechanic doesn't translate well in all modes, it should be removed. In the past, Halo has been pretty consistent about that across all games. It's standardized, and I like it.
HiredN00bs
Member
Interesting, because the negative answers to his important question more aptly describe the bullet spread game mechanic in Halo 3.GhaleonEB said:
I agree; I find it works very well in Campaign and Firefight. The gunplay in Reach as a lot to do with why I like Firefight so much. But that same mechanic in a multiplayer context drives me nuts.Dax01 said:
And this is why. Well said.A27 Tawpgun said:
Everyone can read it with their own mechanic that they dislike in mind and find ways to reach their desired outcome. I was just stating mine.HiredN00bs said:
Besides the hackers I really had no complaints about Halo 2 online though, great playlists all the time, great maps and ect. hackers really did get annoying until you had the one hacker that wouldnt do dumb stuff and had it so you flew around on specter turrets on Containment....now that was a lot of fun actually lolxxxstylzxxx said:
Blue Ninja
Member
In space, no one can hear you say "wow". Apparently, you can still hear Marty's music, though. (Rendered)
And if you're wondering what's going to make you say "wow", I'll give you a tiny (big) hint.
And if you're wondering what's going to make you say "wow", I'll give you a tiny (big) hint.
Tha Robbertster
Member
HiredN00bs said:
That isn't really true though. If you compare the movement speed and even more the strafing speed of Halo 3 and Reach, you'll see Halo 3 's strafing speed is much higher and thus makes it harder to hit people. The only times I have trouble hitting people in Reach is when he is nearl in my face.
Account Attempt #4
Member
You do some incredible work, sir! Nice find. =OBlue Ninja said:In space, no one can hear you say "wow". Apparently, you can still hear Marty's music, though. (Rendered)
And if you're wondering what's going to make you say "wow", I'll give you a tiny (big) hint.
ncsuDuncan
Member
So who is the asshole that posted those comments on Jaime's blog? Very mature. I'm all for discussion on bloom, but shit like that just discredits GAF more so than usual. I just hope it was some lurker
because that's just embarassing.
As for bloom, I like the concept but I'm not in love with the execution. I'd like to test a version of Reach that has both the DMR and a BR. Give the DMR a slightly better scope than it currently has and treat it as a pseudo-power weapon. Not quite a sniper rifle but definitely intended for long-range kills only.
Spawn with a BR instead, which loses to a DMR in long range fights but dominates the mid-range battles that I loved in Halo 2 and 3.
I think bloom works well for Reach's pistol, I just get frustrated by the clip size.
or someone who was banned
As for bloom, I like the concept but I'm not in love with the execution. I'd like to test a version of Reach that has both the DMR and a BR. Give the DMR a slightly better scope than it currently has and treat it as a pseudo-power weapon. Not quite a sniper rifle but definitely intended for long-range kills only.
Spawn with a BR instead, which loses to a DMR in long range fights but dominates the mid-range battles that I loved in Halo 2 and 3.
I think bloom works well for Reach's pistol, I just get frustrated by the clip size.
That is pretty immature for someone to vent their frustrations with a game on a personal game designer's blog. Some great insight into game design on there, and some salty Halo fan goes on and cries about the game, real shitty person.ncsuDuncan said:
I love that I have a primary weapon that is effective at range, and can counter snipers pretty well, but I see the drawbacks of the design of the bloom with the close and mid-range game. I am fine with getting beat out by other weapons at close range when I am using a DMR, although I hate how skill-less a lot of those close range weapons are.
The mid-range encounters, and the overall design of Reach's shooting model bothers me. I posted this a while back, but I feel the main problem is the discrepancy with the magnetism between being zoomed and unzoomed. I always liked in Halo CE where the magnetism mechanics did not change regardless of zoom. It made the issue of getting shot out of your zoom not much of a problem. Ever since Halo 2, if you got shot out of zoom at a certain range you had no magnetism or aim assist, so you had to struggle to free aim at the guy who is zoomed in with the assists and shooting you. It turns into a zoom fight, where you are trying to knock them out of zoom and keep yourself in yours. The abrupt loss of aim assist when being un-scoped is awkward as well.
Watching a lot of Pro Reach gameplay, part of their strategy with the DMR is to Pace for initial damage to shields, then to spam while in zoom at the face when the player is no shield, and at strangely close ranges, this seems like a way of exploiting the system. A lot of the aforementioned "Zoom fighting" happens as well, and it isn't any fun. There is some quality to the pacing of the DMR that I like, but because of this whole zoom magnetism issue, I feel that pacing can get beat out by Zoomed Spam, and often does. If the magnetism modifiers remained unchanged for the weapons intended ranges in spite of zoom, I feel Pacers would win more battles against Spammers. Keep in mind I am discussing the good starting weapons of Halo (H1 Pistol, BR's and DMR).
xxjuicesxx
Member
Get outta here haters.
Troller Lock
http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=5833959&player=Tawpgun
One of the few times I've used Armor Lock. I should have died so many times. No it's not a skill/strategy. It was easy as hell.
http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=7301963&player=Tawpgun
As far as bloom goes, it's the mid range fights (the most common in Halo) that bloom on the DMR fails.
You never know if its better to spam or pace. And that element of randomness is terirble. How can you POSSIBLY agree with bloom in this scenario.
Mid Range Fight. Player A spots Player B. Player B spots Player A. Player A spams his trigger. Player B, realizing the maximum bloom is a bit big for this distance, paces himself. Spammer wins anyway.
It's not some 1 in a million scenario. it happens MULTIPLE times each game and its bullshit.
I have felt like a boss when I paced a spammer to death. And I felt like a clutch motherfucker when I out DMR'd someone while weak because I spammed, even though Bloom was the reason, not any skill I had.
Please, bloom supporters of GAF, how do you defend this shit?
http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=5833959&player=Tawpgun
One of the few times I've used Armor Lock. I should have died so many times. No it's not a skill/strategy. It was easy as hell.
http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=7301963&player=Tawpgun
As far as bloom goes, it's the mid range fights (the most common in Halo) that bloom on the DMR fails.
You never know if its better to spam or pace. And that element of randomness is terirble. How can you POSSIBLY agree with bloom in this scenario.
Mid Range Fight. Player A spots Player B. Player B spots Player A. Player A spams his trigger. Player B, realizing the maximum bloom is a bit big for this distance, paces himself. Spammer wins anyway.
It's not some 1 in a million scenario. it happens MULTIPLE times each game and its bullshit.
I have felt like a boss when I paced a spammer to death. And I felt like a clutch motherfucker when I out DMR'd someone while weak because I spammed, even though Bloom was the reason, not any skill I had.
Please, bloom supporters of GAF, how do you defend this shit?
Just got a 20-0 perfection in the arena with jelyk. You guys sock for missing out
http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/GameStats.aspx?gameid=630880751&player=Booties
http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/GameStats.aspx?gameid=630880751&player=Booties
bobs...onGaf
Member
Hydranockz said:
Not in multikill scenario's. The BR also actually had a damn near accurate first bullet (out of the burst of 3) so if someone was 1 shot the spread made no difference.
I actually prefer that to the fact that some people can panic and still get lucky, a fixed RoF lets a player know theyre boundries and good players will know when they need to back out. Of course the timing would be REALLY damn slow and people would find it boring, bloom just suger coats that.Hydranockz said:
Hydranockz said:
I kind of think the use of bloom is negated over range, it takes longer to kill the dude, but thats essentially it. Is it worth it at the cost of whats happened to the close range combat?
I dont even care that spammers occasionaly get lucky, I just hate how the speedy precision gameplay has been replaced with Reach's play - it just feels too slow/ spammy to even be enjoyable.
Hydranockz said:
Even if the cool head wins 9/10 thats 1 time too many, 9/10 is nothing when you consider that you can easily have over 100 dmr battles in just a few hours of play. That said I dont care about the cool head losing, im just not sure I enjoy the gameplay that comes about from the bloom mechanic.
Blue Ninja
Member
I'd realize it was a dream. Within a dream. Within a donut.wwm0nkey said:
BRAAAAAAAAAM.
Armor Lock, of course, is determent in small, enclosed maps. It's served on vehicular based or large maps, i.e built for BTB and Invasion.
As for bloom, I said it before and I'll say it again, I'll take a bloom game as long as it contained hitscan over a game that's reliant on spread. Many cases of deaths will result in your shots not registering because of the connection speed.
As for bloom, I said it before and I'll say it again, I'll take a bloom game as long as it contained hitscan over a game that's reliant on spread. Many cases of deaths will result in your shots not registering because of the connection speed.
NullPointer
Member
Semi and fully automatic weapons can be spammed by their very nature. Sometimes spamming will win from chance. Pacing your shots should give you the upper hand more often.A27 Tawpgun said:
How would this work out without bloom? Both players would spam and the one who saw the other first would win?
Maybe you're arguing for even more bloom?
bobs...onGaf
Member
NullPointer said:
Thats a weak response given that the older Halo games didnt have bloom and they certainly wernt about spotting your opponent first. I cant think of a Halo game where battles worked out like that at all.
EDIT: Whats the link to Jaime's blog? Has he been posting about bloom?
NullPointer
Member
Its a question. Say bloom is removed, how does it play out? Spammers can't win?bobs99 ... said:
http://thetipofthesphere.com/2011/05/25/put-to-the-question/bobs99 ... said:
No, he wasn't speaking about Bloom, just game mechanics in general. HaloGAF brought up bloom (Ghaleon) then someone went on a rant in the comments about it on his site.
bobs...onGaf
Member
NullPointer said:
On Halo 3 just a few weeks ago I remember playing with people who by the end of the night were even saying "bobs theres no point in even shooting you in the back because you just turn around and destroy us". Its just far too easy to turn around and out BR someone who isnt as good (those guys dont play Halo anywhere near as much as me), or even against a good player you can usually escape using the map or use other tools like nades to your advantage. You have just enough health to respond to getting shot first, and its rare that your stuck totally out in the open without any options (unless you put yourself in that position).
If im shot in the back even if the dude spams shots non stop, I can turn around jump and hopefully nade him and 1 shot him. Or I can put my head down get around the nearest corner and tell my team to help out.
On Reach im quite happy to just armour lock.
If you end up in a 1v1 situation on Reach the lack of movement really just turns it into a bit of a spamming match, but with a decent movement speed removing bloom would just allow players to use other tools to get the step up.
EDIT: If bloom is removed and a fixed RoF isnt in place then it would be pretty messy, it would turn the game into CoD and the killtimes would be so quick that yeah, first person to see the opponent gets a easy kill however practically speaking removing bloom and putting a fixed RoF back in would make it play more like the older Halo games, which didnt have that CoD gameplay.
On another totally unrelated note, I was listening to the ODST sountrack earlier and it kind of makes me want to play it again. Every Bungie made trailer has been 100x more epic because of Martys music. I wonder how 343 can hope to achieve the same effect with the man himself. I really hope theres a Halo trailer at 343 and I cant wait to see what they do with the music.
Barrow Roll
Member
That's the problem with bloom. Right there. Chance has no place in a competitive gaming environment. None of this "more often" crap, if both players are the same distance apart then the person pacing their shots with the better aim should always win. Where's the incentive if sometimes spamming your trigger wins out?NullPointer said:
No, the player with the better aim and strafe to throw off their opponents aim should win among other tactics that can be used besides just spamming the trigger.
NullPointer said:
Upper hand more often? Define more often.... Because it seems like Pacers would win 60% of the time if that at mid range. And if Most of the time is still around 80% of firefights, thats too much. It's a game of probability and chance at this point...
And the better shot + Strafe would win. Like the past goddamn games.
The Henery
Member
ncsuDuncan said:
Probably not a gaffer. My money's on Cherno "josh Bloomrick" from the mlg forums. And I thought he'd calmed down since becoming a father... I wouldn't take it too seriously
Lazslo
Member
Hmm- I never really got upset with the spread in Halo: 3, I'm not sure why it just never bothered me. I also don't really care too much about the Bloom in Reach. It also just never bothered me- I always attributed getting out DMR'd to my own personal shityness- not outside influences like bullet flight path. However, I do find it Bat-Shit-Crazy that after all the bullshit Bungie received for the Spread in H3, they would introduce something similar that's a fundamental element to the shooting mechanics of arguably the main weapon in Reach. Maybe they figured no one notice.
The one question I have is- What was so wrong with the Halo 2 BR that Bungie had to change things up so much? The H2 BR is absolutely the best gun in the series, fuck the pistol. I know there were some crazy button combo hacks but other then that, the H2 BR was phenomenal. Wish they just kept that shit in the game.
The one question I have is- What was so wrong with the Halo 2 BR that Bungie had to change things up so much? The H2 BR is absolutely the best gun in the series, fuck the pistol. I know there were some crazy button combo hacks but other then that, the H2 BR was phenomenal. Wish they just kept that shit in the game.
Gonna render this when the minutes I bought kick in. https://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=18295847&player=Booties Also, my disc seems to be working find for all maps now. Think I can save it to my HDD now and be ok? It doesn't spin the disc at all when you do that, right? Maybe just at start up? I forget.
The Librarian
Banned
That's one of the small changes I don't like. Most of the time it's complete luck for someone to shoot a grenade. It punishes the grenade thrower.Tunavi said:
That wasn't a change, you could shoot grenades in Halo 3 as well.Dax01 said:
This is a tangent, but the Plasma Pistol over charge can be shot out of the air as well. Quite often in Firefight an Elite with a Concussion Rifle will deflect the overcharge with it. It always catches me off guard when that happens. I once had a shootout with an Elite who blocked four of them in a row and went on to kill me when the PP ran out of juice; meant to take a clip of it at the time and forgot.