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Nintendo: Wii U Re-Unveil At E3 2012, Working On Strong Launch, No Pokemon?
- Thread starter moulels
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Thunder Monkey
Banned
And most of those efficiencies come from lowering precision on a whole range of effects. Not that they can't get close. But then again I don't think any of the three are going to be using hardware that much more powerful than a 2012 PC. Sony maybe. MS no.iamshadowlark said:
Technically, based on known info, Wii U has tech necessary to use the vast majority of of the effects in Samaritan; it just has to be toned-down. (Keep in mind that the Wii U's GPU is customized and will probably be a lot more than just an R700 in its final form, even if that is the base.)iamshadowlark said:
And it really sucks that Wii U will probably won't be out until November next year. That means I'll probably have to wait a year longer than I expected to buy it. :/ And before you talk to me about the benefits of waiting for a larger library, I have four fucking game systems in my house right now, plus a semi-capable laptop, plus I'm getting a new Android phone in two weeks. I could not give any less of a fuck about one of my systems experiencing a drought and I'll never understand why you guys do. Still, I understand and expected this as soon as I found out about the loss.
Also, I've been watching over the past few days, and to everyone who made fun of me behind my back,
Okay, I'm done now.
Welcome back.BurntPork said:Technically, based on known info, Wii U has tech necessary to use the vast majority of of the effects in Samaritan; it just has to be toned-down. (Keep in mind that the Wii U's GPU is customized and will probably be a lot more than just an R700 in its final form, even if that is the base.)
And it really sucks that Wii U will probably won't be out until November next year. That means I'll probably have to wait a year longer than I expected to buy it. :/ And before you talk to me about the benefits of waiting for a larger library, I have four fucking game systems in my house right now, plus a semi-capable laptop, plus I'm getting a new Android phone in two weeks. I could not give any less of a fuck about one of my systems experiencing a drought and I'll never understand why you guys do. Still, I understand and expected this as soon as I found out about the loss.
Also, I've been watching over the past few days, and to everyone who made fun of me behind my back,
Okay, I'm done now.
D:
Thunder Monkey said:
Yes, this is what I mean.
Reorganizing data paths isn't going to net you the means to run what's going on SandyBridge + 3 GTX 580s on the equivalent of a single GTS 450. And "efficient algorithms" is exactly what I was just talking about, worded differently.
You and others are using the word "optimize" as if it's some kinda magic. Wanna know why Crysis 2 is so much more "optimized" than Crysis 1? Look at the texture resolutions on things like the floor and the wall to start. Do some people notice things like that? No, they don't. I do. But I also still regularly play NES/SMS games.
H_Prestige
Banned
So you optimize in order to achieve poorer results? Never knew that.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
The monkey is dumb, the human behind the monkey has been interested in pixel shading tech since he read a paper on color combiners more than a decade ago. Honestly, never expected the tech to advance to the level it has this quickly. I thought Dot3 precision effects wouldn't be common until around the time of the 360, to see it happen almost a generation before that.Shanadeus said:
Gotta give to realtime renderers. They do push the bar far in little time.
Don't tell the monkey I called him dumb. He might send Nirolak another nude photo and get banned for a month again.
Or to achieve them at all on given hardware?H_Prestige said:
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
I'd kill for an optimisation-on-a-switch (outside of 'just drop all render targets' res 5 times') that can get a tech demo running on 3 (three) GX580's to run on whatever will be in the xbox loop/ps4 at similar performance. No, seriously, just point me to a target and i'd wack 'em.Massa said:
bigdaddygamebot
Member
Gamer @ Heart said:
That's all they have been doing since the summer...scrambling.
Hopefully they figure it out for E3 and 2012.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Being perfectly honest Nintendo has looked extremely weak for a long time before that.[Nintex] said:
Nuclear Muffin
Banned
Ahh, Burntpork is back! I was starting to miss his crazyness (I wouldn't have any excuse to post the Burntpork chart in that case!)
Yes, resistive screens can be operated with a finger as well, whodathunkit? You can't do multitouch, but that's not a big deal when you have buttons (never mind the tradeoff for losing the accuracy of stylus controls)
Are capacitive screens really expensive these days though? If anything, wouldn't resistive screens be more expensive since the economies of scale that come from practically every single non Nintendo touchscreen device using a capacitive screen wouldn't apply? (since Nintendo are basically the only major manufacturer who still use resistive screens)
I can imagine that durability might come into play though (but probably not enough of a factor to push them away from resistive tech)
Well they do have Rhythm Heaven Fever, Mario Party 9, Mario & Sonic 3, The Last Story (PAL) and Pandora's Tower (PAL) so they do still have a good few games to release in 2012.
orioto said:
Yes, resistive screens can be operated with a finger as well, whodathunkit? You can't do multitouch, but that's not a big deal when you have buttons (never mind the tradeoff for losing the accuracy of stylus controls)
ShockingAlberto said:
Are capacitive screens really expensive these days though? If anything, wouldn't resistive screens be more expensive since the economies of scale that come from practically every single non Nintendo touchscreen device using a capacitive screen wouldn't apply? (since Nintendo are basically the only major manufacturer who still use resistive screens)
I can imagine that durability might come into play though (but probably not enough of a factor to push them away from resistive tech)
Medalion said:
Well they do have Rhythm Heaven Fever, Mario Party 9, Mario & Sonic 3, The Last Story (PAL) and Pandora's Tower (PAL) so they do still have a good few games to release in 2012.
iamshadowlark
Banned
No, its not. These efficiencies come from from debugging and analyzing your code by lines at the time, taking that usage data and coming up ways to present the code differently ,in a more efficient manner, if that simplifies it enough. What you and steviep described is more of a result of deadlines and the like.Thunder Monkey said:
[Nintex] said:
Seriously, this. It also doesn't help that this latest development makes it sound like Wii U news is going to be a desert until mid year 2012, what's there to keep the interest high? Seems like a lot to ask of the 3DS alone. Wii is almost a virtual non-factor with how Nintendo (primarily NoA) have cast it out in the cold.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
I should have just said their console side has looked extremely weak for a while now.Medalion said:
iamshadowlark
Banned
They have little to no idea what they are talking about.H_Prestige said:
Thunder Monkey
Banned
So you truly believe they can take the effects seen in a cutscene, and use it on hardware no where near as powerful as what it was built on just by reorganizing code? I'll take your word for it mate, but I don't see how they could pull it off without changing something.iamshadowlark said:
StevieP said:
Now, I'm not a game developer, but I always assumed "optimize" was used in game development in the same way that it's used in software development. Some aspects of your code base may be less efficient then others. To optimize your code you don't attempt to sacrifice functionality, you find areas that were less than ideal before and improve on them. This can take the form of finding a way to reduce how much data is stored in memory, or speeding up some particularly slow function.
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
60_gig_PS3 said:
Honestly, I hope we get another Mario 64/open world type game on launch.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Just so no one takes what I'm saying as fact.
I am more centered on visual aspects of game design than programming. Like I said I'll take what he's saying as truth. But... I don't see how something built for 1200 spu's can run as is on a 800 spu part. Without a loss of quality that is.
I am more centered on visual aspects of game design than programming. Like I said I'll take what he's saying as truth. But... I don't see how something built for 1200 spu's can run as is on a 800 spu part. Without a loss of quality that is.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
It's okay. I'm glad you're back, if only for your eccentric nature.BurntPork said:
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Thunder Monkey said:
Fixed
Well, obviously something didn't go according to plan. I think they thought that it's best to deal with the drought in the short term so that they could depend on Wii U taking off and getting third-party support in the long term so they don't have to carry it alone. Nintendo really likes to focus on the long term.[Nintex] said:
Also, looking at Nintendo's stock, whatever Iwata said really worked! I bet it was the whole eShop on smartphones thing.
Thunder Monkey said:
I'm going to be a bit more chill now, so you might not be totally satisfied.Shick Brithouse said:
Thunder Monkey said:
We're speaking in terms of visuals here. It can't. Something made for the equivalent of 4500 SPUs cannot look the same running with 800 (or less) SPUs that we're looking at when we talk the next generation of consoles and thermal/power limits associated with such.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Calling someone psychotic is rude.ClovingSteam said:
I prefer eccentric because it means more or less the same thing but doesn't carry the negative connotations.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Exactly. Thats one of the first things you learn in school.KrawlMan said:
Thunder Monkey said:
Well you also have to factor in how less efficient pc development is to console development.
PC games, in simple terms, employ a brute force method of development. Some mid-level api does most of the work, since software needs to run on a infinte amount of different configurations. You have way less control of the hardware, so you have to write code in a more generalized fashion, while not being able to take advantage of designing software for a particular architecture and maximizing performance.
Thunder Monkey said:
Its not as is. see the above.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Erm, as somebody who's been doing and optimising game engines & graphics pipelines for the past 9 years, across a plethora of architectures, I can assure you, there's no such programming and/or dataflow optimisation which you can just flip a switch on and get something which required the BW and ALU power of 3x GX580s to run on something which is 1/3 or 1/4 the power of those. Bar dropping resolutions left and right (thus lowering both BW and ALU reqs). The programming effort for such things can vary from non-trivial to outright-fucking-impossible, and this is taking into account all kinds of profiling tool, GPU analyzers and all that jazz. Even if you were ultra lame with the ALU in your shaders and the analyzer told you so in your face, there still remains the issue of BW and that usually is 'optimised' in one way and one way only - you cut off on things.Thunder Monkey said:
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Thunder Monkey said:
Don't make me get my figs!
I mean when you look at it could the average gaming rig OUT TODAY play the samaritan tech demo on high? I don't expect that it would be able to so why would we expect a small enclosed gaming console that comes out even in 2014 to be able to pump out visuals like that?StevieP said:
Thunder Monkey
Banned
No I get that.iamshadowlark said:
I just don't think their hardware will be capable of it at all without cutting precision, or texture res, or particles, or etc. I don't expect the 720 to be that much more powerful than the WiiU. Likely have more RAM, but more or less on equal footing otherwise. No amount of optimization or cuts will get Samaritan to run on a 640spu part.
You'll be able to get close... or close enough for me. But not without a simpler form of the effects shown. If you can get it to run on a 720, you should be able to get it to run on a WiiU, and from there a PS3 or 360. It wouldn't be anything close to the Samaritan engine at that point.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Which was my default position at the outset.blu said:
He seems so damn sure though. Easy to see the appeal when you don't have programming knowledge to back you up.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Thunder Monkey said:
Psh, you don't know which hood he's from, man. He also led his debate team.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Definitely a master debater.ClovingSteam said:
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
[Nintex] said:
They don't have games they could release for any console (whether Wii or WiiU) until 2013 or 2014. They could either release WiiU now and have a huge drought for years and years or just have the Wii end with a year of no games and have a less huge drought for the WiiU later on.
iamshadowlark
Banned
blu said:
Wait, are you comparing the BW requirements of PC software to one of a console. Specifically a pc with a MB that has 3 gpus and an infinite amount of other none essential components. Seriously?
Also at the bolded, thats exactly why companies like sony and epic have teams assigned to this sort of task. And who the hell said something about flipping a switch lol?
BlackNMild2k1
Member
I just wanted to chime in to let people know that resistive multi-touch screens do exist...
I'm not sure if Nintendo is gonna use one, but they are out there if they want one.
and as for the Optimization talk...
I've always imagined it to be that a Dev would push for the best graphics possible that the machine can produce, realize that now that they are pushing every advanced effect in the book at the highest possible resolution, the frame rate has dropped to (two)2fps.
So they need to optimize. In order to do that, they need to scale back the amount of effects, polygons, memory usage, resolution or whatever it is they can to ease the load on the GPU and get that frame rate back up to acceptable levels. This may mean reorganizing some code to improve data flow, but will most likely involve the downgrading of character models, the removal of lighting sources and shadows, the lowering of texture resolution, the decrease of draw distance and whatever other graphical effects they can trim back without making the game immediately look last gen compared to the maxed out screen caps.
Now that optimization would work any which way they need it to depending on what the desired results were, but am I wrong to think of it that way?
I'm not sure if Nintendo is gonna use one, but they are out there if they want one.
and as for the Optimization talk...
I've always imagined it to be that a Dev would push for the best graphics possible that the machine can produce, realize that now that they are pushing every advanced effect in the book at the highest possible resolution, the frame rate has dropped to (two)2fps.
So they need to optimize. In order to do that, they need to scale back the amount of effects, polygons, memory usage, resolution or whatever it is they can to ease the load on the GPU and get that frame rate back up to acceptable levels. This may mean reorganizing some code to improve data flow, but will most likely involve the downgrading of character models, the removal of lighting sources and shadows, the lowering of texture resolution, the decrease of draw distance and whatever other graphical effects they can trim back without making the game immediately look last gen compared to the maxed out screen caps.
Now that optimization would work any which way they need it to depending on what the desired results were, but am I wrong to think of it that way?
iamshadowlark
Banned
You are right in that what you described happens most of the time, but thats not optimization nor is it due to hardware constraints, more like pressure and deadlines from the higher ups. The very nature if programming teaches us that something can always be improved on.BlackNMild2k1 said:
JoshuaJSlone
Member
I have to think the group of people interested in Wii U but haven't used a DS is going to be pretty limited.orioto said:
Honestly, they need to just go 99.99 on Wii and have the Nintendo Selects line across the board on all stuff over 2 years old after the fiscal year is up & depending on how long Zelda's legs are. Really, the DS needs to drop in price too.Medalion said:
It won't happen but it should. They could make it a part of the E3 stuff