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Forza 4 |OT| Where Porsche Are Driven
- Thread starter G Rom
- Start date
-MikePriester-
Member
P...lease. Why even..
Helios is now our Community Manager for Forza Horizon, so am I right to assume he's also our Community Manager for Forza 4 (thanks a lot Brian.....hmm).
So, Helios, how many car DLC packs are left and will we then be overloaded with track DLC?
Shortt Sirket
Member
Damn dude, that is NUTS. Can't wait to pick that up!
ALAN ULTIMATE
Neo Member
V. nice
Pask, could you please rephrase the question, I do not understand?
The reason MS wants to use XID is to get licensing fees and control everything. Is there a way to do this with an HID interface. Could this control be achieved through software?
CrudeDiatribe
Member
MS could always make a new version of the XID to more closely match HID, but they don't.
evil_as_skeletor
Member
coming soon guys...my rmagic rx7
I NEED this!!!
I tried making a similar design for a race series I had going on at Ausrotary.com a while back. It was quick and crude, can't wait to see yours!!
Just jumped into this game. Last racing sim I played was GT4 and that was a while back. I am still fumbling my way around the systems and options, I haven't found an analog to GT's driving school, what did you guys do for that? I want to get my driving chops up to snuff and the career mode isn't very informative. GT School was an excellent teaching tool. So far I've been test driving my cars on the tracks and getting a grip on things (wink wink, oh, I'm so cheesy) on my own.
I've reached level 6 and I was given a Trueno (AE85?) and I took it out to Laguna Seca, its engine noise is still playing in my ear even after I've turned off the Xbox. If that car and track was all that is to the game, I would have still been more than satisfied. I love it!
I've reached level 6 and I was given a Trueno (AE85?) and I took it out to Laguna Seca, its engine noise is still playing in my ear even after I've turned off the Xbox. If that car and track was all that is to the game, I would have still been more than satisfied. I love it!
I think not, because there there is important difference between XID and HID.
HID is *driver/interface* that communicates with the system/device from the host-side through API, while XID (through Xinput) is more-less API itself (XID is a special wireless/USB protocol developed by MS) because it is *included* in device. Thus, HID is *universal* driver/interface-standard that communicates with PC via DirectInput API (in most cases, or Linux FFB API's, or some third party API solution), or with PS3 via TouchSense (which is complex immersion haptic system that also includes its own API, developed by Immersion Corp. for Sony and used on PlayStation devices, which was also part of the lawsuit back in early 2000's), but it can't communicate with XID (Xinput).
Also, Microsoft was the one that actually proposed and co-developed HID. As they say on Developers Center:
But Microsoft also later developed XID and Xinput in order to control both devices and its own API and make it part of the actual device, fully licensed and fully "closed". This is what the Logitech guy said on regarding this matter back in 2008:
Interesting to know is that Immersion Corp. was the one that was developing DirectInput with Microsoft in late 90's, paving the foundations for development of FFB technlogoy and integration of DirectInput early as DirectX 5.0. Later they developed their TuchSense API which became a foundation of FFB (haptic force feedback) as we know it today for 90% of products (which are not Xinput).
However, Microsoft also went into legal battle with Immersion (same as with Sony) because few of Immersion patents were breached. Microsoft settled down their dispute before X360 launch (so X360 launched with both rumble effects for their controllers and FFB for MS Wireless FFB wheel), while Sony fought a full-year into PS3 life (that is the reason why DualShock 3 was introduced much later than console release and why initial driving games on PS3 didn't support FFB effects - for instance both GT:HD demo or Formula One game from Liverpool Studios, RIP - which was enabled through software update once the dispute was settled).
No they could not, as long as they force in-device FFB execution, and not host-based - and it is like that from many reasons.
For HID standard, the host (either console or PC) is calculating and sending all FFB data to wheel-motor, *talking* through software (some driving game with own specific FFB engine) with the device directly. As we learned, that consumes CPU power as well, because game has to *calculate* everything for the device and send all data to motors.
For XID devices the FFB *talk* is generated on the wheel (device) side, because Xinput uses FFB commands which are built-in the device's own integrated circuit, but they are pre-defined (not real-time generated). From perspective of CPU usage, that is a better solution, because CPU doesn't have to cope with the FFB calculations. But from perspective of actual FFB effects, that is not the better solution, because FFB effects are not real-time (they are pre-baked more-less) and in execution there is problem regarding order of commands (where for instance we can't have real "tensioned" FFB once car lose its grip and goes into countersteer - what we can control on HID-wheels for instance if FFB-engine of the game is good).
They opted for Xinput because it is their own API (no licensing), they can control it in all ways (they are the licenser if anyone wants to use it for either XB or MSW or Metro application) and it has direct performance benefits (allows for better usage of CPU in host-devices). The only actual downside of Xinput (XID) is compromising advanced FFB-wheel support because it influences steering-degrees (despite wheels have their own "DEVSUBTYPE_WHEEL" configuration drivers, they are *limited* to restrictions of "Left Stick X" DirectInput-mapping, so they can *only* recognise limited movement on the X-axis - as issued for controller left stick - while they have to *emulate* 900-degree movement) and "tension" in countersteer (because of the actual FFB commands are pre-baked on the device-side and not calculated in real-time).
At the end, as someone who is playing driving games on X360 with the wheel only (I had MS Wireless FFB Wheel back in a day and played Forza 2, RacePro, PGR 3&4 and TDU) I have to again highlight how at this point (as current Fanatec user - first I had Fanatec GT2 and today I have CSR Elite) I am deeply satisfied with current state of FFB on X360. It has come a long way since times of PGR3 (there was a special version of PGR3 with FFB effect coded that came with my MSFFB wheel) and both Forza 4 and F12012 feels great on the wheel. If they could *only* solve the behaviour of the X-axis once game recognises 900-degree wheel and resolve a problem with order-execution that influences behaviour during countersteer, it would be perfect. But I have no idea can that be done.
I can only hope how development of Xinput (currently on version 1.4) will made further advancement regarding execution of "DEVSUBTYPE_WHEEL" standard and how NextBox will give us even better options for advanced wheel users. However, I am also 100% aware about how we represent such minor percentage of the users (I dont't know the exact numbers, but there can be only that much thousands of Fanatec GT2, CSR and CSRE wheels outthere) that are really influenced with that. And among all of us, there is even smaller percentage of us that are actually bothered with such execution in details (me and Yoritomo and probably Thomas, as far as I know
).Sorry for the long read, but it is complicated subject
CrudeDiatribe
Member
I meant if they make different design decisions/tradeoffs on the next XBox. As you said they had reasons to make XID what it is. However, MS could leave that all in place and yet expand the API/Spec to support some or all of the things you want. 900 degree wheels, or a wheel to have a left/right sticks for menu/UI control, or more host-based FFB (CPU cycles though).
The documentation/code you posted a picture of earlier suggests they aren't doing any of these things. Again, they have reasons. Adding anything would require support from game developers as well.
Unfortunately, there is no 'tutorial'-like system like GT has.
You can pop the racing line on if you're trying to get a feel for the tracks, but otherwise, you'll just need to practice. Hotlapping against your ghost or ghosts of better drivers is a great way to improve. Rivals mode is similarly useful, but also addictive and you'll earn money and XP along the way as well.
Don't race Seanspeed's rival ghosts, though. He'll silently go through each one and beat your times. -__-
CrudeDiatribe
Member
It's been a long fucking time since racing your rival-ghost was good for the self-esteem. Since around the time you found the F50, as I recall.
@Seanspeed: I am using the braking-only driving line until I've learned the track. Summarily turning them off after that, they've always thrown off my balance and I tend to get a lot better times without.
@SarBear: Challenge accepted. *glances at Seanspeed* You are on!
Community tab looks interesting. There seems to be hundreds of Initial D tofu delivery "hachiroku" skins. I should probably rewatch Initial D. And also find a real hachiroku to replace my AE85.
@SarBear: Challenge accepted. *glances at Seanspeed* You are on!
Community tab looks interesting. There seems to be hundreds of Initial D tofu delivery "hachiroku" skins
. I should probably rewatch Initial D. And also find a real hachiroku to replace my AE85.1. XInput
Can you share more of your sources/research on this?
I've been using XInput on the PC for a while (and Direct Input before that), A gamepad's X-Axis has always given a 16 bit value and advertised as full range (-32787 to +32768)..
*pops on MSDN* - here's the XInput structure for a gamepad, http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/lib...k.reference.xinput_capabilities(v=vs.85).aspx
The way you describe it is as if in a wheel or on the Xbox XInput is scaled dramatically smaller? What am I missing? If you look way back at the PID specs for a wheel even under the HID profiles, those already had a great deal of potential XID ideas in them, storage and replay of 'events', all bandwidth reducing ideas, and from what I've seen discussed about XID, quite similar..
(See the USB org HID section,http://www.usb.org/developers/hidpage/ and PID for wheels, http://www.usb.org/developers/devclass_docs/pid1_01.pdf)
2. Licencing and 'control' of peripherals
I was under the impression XID is pretty open, it was more the authentication module that is required that is the controlling aspect..
XID seems more of an attempt at reducing bandwidth (the wireless side of things on the Xbox means voice and data over the same channel, HID wheel control is moderately high in terms of bandwidth being a much lower level description of control then XID)..
3. Fanatec 270/900 Degrees
This never did add quite up for me.. I have found reference to Fanatec saying they buy a board from MS, I assume this is the authentication, wireless and perhaps even some XID decoding (not that important). I suspect that a lot of issues are as a result of Fanatec not designing their own hardware in that aspect, which I think was more a time/effort/knowledge decision rather then licensing.
My spin on it is that the issue is more that games would be written specifically for a 270 degree wheel first since the MS wheel was already out there, and devs would have developed FFB based on that.. the issue is that 270 degrees requires a different FFB approach to a 900 degree wheel, especially on a 'console' where it's not necessarily about purity..
And there in lies what I see as a tangible problem, they could have just re-scaled the wheel sensors output according to SENS value, but the issue would be the FFB scheme sent from the game wouldn't be very suitable, and as we found, it wasn't at first..
But T10 seemed to have stepped up to the plate at last, and we now have some mechanism agreed between T10 and Fanatec of a way that the wheel can advertise it's in >270 degree mode, and the game's FFB scheme changes to give a different and more pure approach.. I think this happened in two stages, in FM3, the 900 degree detection was plagued with issues, and T10 didn't put much effort into tailoring FFB for that.. FM4 was the bigger leap, the 900 degree detection was beefed up, more reliable and they clearly put a huge amount more effort (especially after the update) into tailoring the FFB and handling of the 900 degree mode for a purer experience.
I'm genuinely interested in all this, not having a go, so I'm open to any solid info you can throw at me.. my initial reaction is that there is a lot of assumption going on that I don't agree with until I see the data, mainly because it would seem X360 XInput is vastly different to the PC XInput API..
I can't find any solid info on the XID protocol and data types/fields/ranges, I know that it's fairly easy and open in terms of the XIM and others using a controller for authentication only and spoofing their own XID stuff on the bus.. maybe that's what I'm missing, the XID Wheel specific stuff may be the limiting factor..
This is SO nice...also the front looks like it's smiling in my mindOK, I'll forgive Turn 10 one more car DLC pack if they include this baby...
Paladin CL
Member
Baby? Nice? I Freaking HATE it, its horrible!
AlmostMilk
Member
Really? Even from the back? Come on, it's sex on wheels AND the spiritual successor to the F1. Wait until you see it in the flesh. You'll weep.
-Deadpool-
Member
I love the rear view, but the front/side views don't do much for me.
Would like this in Forza as well!!
"No more cars! Need more tracks! Bububu except this one."
You used to be cool, Mascot. Now you're just one of them.
evil_as_skeletor
Member
Hey guys,
I am after a little help here.
I was wondering if anyone would be so kind as to help me finish off a couple of vinyl logos for the Magnus Porsche which is just gathering dust at the moment.
Hertz was going to help me, but seeing as his is MIA at the time being, I thought I'd reach out to you guys.
I really want to get it sorted so I can be done with it and get it up on the storefront for purchase.
I am really stuck for layers too, so they'd need to be drastically reduced layer counts.... (I also need to reduce the layers of what's there already to fit anything more on.
So if anyone of you awesome designers out there can help a brother out, I would be very appreciative.
Cheers.
I am after a little help here.
I was wondering if anyone would be so kind as to help me finish off a couple of vinyl logos for the Magnus Porsche which is just gathering dust at the moment.
Hertz was going to help me, but seeing as his is MIA at the time being, I thought I'd reach out to you guys.
I really want to get it sorted so I can be done with it and get it up on the storefront for purchase.
I am really stuck for layers too, so they'd need to be drastically reduced layer counts.... (I also need to reduce the layers of what's there already to fit anything more on.
So if anyone of you awesome designers out there can help a brother out, I would be very appreciative.
Cheers.
The back is what really sells it to me, but the front looks happy so that's why I quoted that image in relation to my post. Would be interesting to see how it handled too, of course.
ALAN ULTIMATE
Neo Member
That is only a design image of the car that will to be shown at the 2012 Paris motor show -
September 29 to October 14.
So it's not actually the cars final design.
September 29 to October 14.
So it's not actually the cars final design.
From memory it's pretty close to the prototype I saw at MTC a couple of months ago. From discussions at the time it was heavily hinted that this was the design heading into full production next year, but I guess time will tell. I'm supposed to be back there next week so I'll see what I can find out.
Photos don't really do this car justice IMO. The proportions are sublime.
How dare you! I've never been cool.
Oh geez. That was ages ago. I don't even use Ferrari models anymore. I think they're all cheap. All my leaderboard times are currently set in non-leaderboard times. I've got a handful of them in the top 100 in s class.
I took a look at my times in rivals. LOL is all I can say.
Between now and this weekend, I'm going to best each of them by at least a second.
Paladin CL
Member
The back is the best angle by far, i like (but just the back panel), i hate the side of the car, looks like it has a huge hole in it. I dislike the front totally, also i dislike how the cockpit of the car is way to high and the gap between the cockpit and the rear side of the car.
For me its a huge disappointment over the other Mclarens, especially the F1 LM and the MP4-12c, i love both cars in terms of looks.
These official images are weird, especially the front view. The proportions are oddly distorted. Wait for the footage from Paris, you'll see what I mean.
Paladin CL
Member
That wont change the lifting or the lights or the hole in the middle of the car. I know when i hate a car, i hated the Reventon too since the first picture and i have never liked it any better.
-MikePriester-
Member
Diffent strokes for different blokes en all. I love the look of the Reventon but not soo keen on this.
I'd love to see some concept cars in Forza 5 though.
I'd love to see some concept cars in Forza 5 though.
CrudeDiatribe
Member
We did starting in December. Sort of fell of the rails later on in the winter with various people disappearing.
Zorbs has some videos on his YouTube channel (look for "GAF Weekend Racing League").
Zorbs has some videos on his YouTube channel (look for "GAF Weekend Racing League").
ALAN ULTIMATE
Neo Member
Do you know what would be cool in the next Forza?
Dinosaurs!
LOL
AlmostMilk
Member
Use to. Haven't done any GAF races in a long time.
Well if you guys want to start them up again and the interest is there, I'm sure we can chip in with some Unicorns for the various winners.
CrudeDiatribe
Member
I am very keen on having spec races with any of the following:
Any Ferrari CS model (355/360/430/458)
Porsche Cayman R
Cobra
Exige
Also: 'GAF-Am': '68-'70 small muscle cars put up to A600, full race kit before power mods, four speed transmission. Builds on my storefront for testing, let me know and I can gift you any setup for tweaking.
Any Ferrari CS model (355/360/430/458)
Porsche Cayman R
Cobra
Exige
Also: 'GAF-Am': '68-'70 small muscle cars put up to A600, full race kit before power mods, four speed transmission. Builds on my storefront for testing, let me know and I can gift you any setup for tweaking.
CrudeDiatribe
Member
So... double post, but whatever.
Chris Harris is tweeting pics of classic GT and prototype cars from Spa. This leads to two important concerns:
1. Will Forza 5 let us install flares for extra wide tires and just because cars like the Batmobile-esque CSL look so badass.
2. Where is Spa?
Whine whine whine.
Chris Harris is tweeting pics of classic GT and prototype cars from Spa. This leads to two important concerns:
1. Will Forza 5 let us install flares for extra wide tires and just because cars like the Batmobile-esque CSL look so badass.
2. Where is Spa?
Jube and Helios, don't say Belgium.
Whine whine whine.
I'm down for this. As long as the damn Megane doesn't make an ugly return.
Seriously, though, after demolishing a few of my rival times I feel energized to kick some Canadian ass.
Shortt Sirket
Member
microtubule
Member
@ayeorkean, only the Soccer track is available for purchase as of now. MS hasn't made Benchmark available to purchase yet.
I've had the LE since launch day and I don't think I've ever driven the Benchmark track. I'm not big on ovals.
I guess tuners use it?
And photographers.
They need the Michelin Test Track from PGR4 as their token test track. But I guess the assistance from Pirelli would be dropped.