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Don't cartridge games eventually "die"?

Come on guys. Cartridges may not last forever, but everyone of mine still work. I even have a couple Fairchild carts, and they work just fine. If you don’t know what that is, look it up, to find out how old it is. Here is a hint, it is older than the Atari 2600!
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Let's ask the real question: When will it be a good time to dump these things on eBay just before they go sour?
 
Most cartridge-based games will not have their main chips die anytime soon. The save mechanisms are different, but for the game chip itsself it's not a problem... except for:

A small amount of old cartridge games used EPROMs instead of masked ROMS, and those can die. I used to open a lot of 2600 cartridges and you do see the occasional EPROM.

Newer homebrew/indie releases can have the same problem. Battlesphere for the Jaguar is on EPROM. If you aren't doing a huge run, making masked ROMS isn't feasible.

Note that this has nothing to do with game saves on NES/SMS cartridges and the like, that's another whole issue.

This is important because EPROMs only have a 25-year lifespan, compared to the indefinite lifespan of a normal masked ROM. But since all officially-released cartridge games I know of since the NES generation use masked ROMs and not EPROM, it's not a big problem except for 2600 fans.


The second issue is the contacts. As has been said, while blowing on carts makes them work (and I end up doing it far too often out of impatience to just get the game working), it's not good for the carts since it degrades the contacts. Over time this will cause problems... use the Q-tip and isopropyl alcohol solution or buy a generic cart cleaning kit. It's well worth it.

Sorry, but most cartridge based systems have copper connectors, which, over time, will degrade.

The move you use them, the worse it will get.

I've heard that a cart game should last about 25 years or so.

In the case of TG16/PCE, where they used gold connectors, your mileage may varry.

So, youre considering pending a bucket of cash on Neo Geo home carts, it wouldnt be a wise investment.

Not that I advocate the open distribution of illegally dumped roms, but thank god for their existance.

If they've been taken care of well they'll last a lot longer than that... and anyway, Neo Geo had new games in production until three years ago. If quite a few 20 year old NES carts are still working, why shouldn't many Neo ones for decades to come? Particularly if you don't blow on the contacts...


Saving is a different, and much more complex, issue. Some people have mentioned the fact that most cart games that save use batteries, but unfortunately it's not anywhere near that simple... I'll have to go by platform.

First, as far as I know no pre-NES console had in-cart saving (though I could be wrong about that). Lynx has no saving either. Turbografx-16 iwill be addressed later (it's unique).

Second, note that numerous games for every platform that has saving don't support saving; the percent of games with saving is very low in older platforms and gets higher with time; the GBA probably has the highest percentage of games with internal saving of any cartridge-based system ever, but the NES has very few that are affected.

For the NES, Super Nintendo, Game Boy (original), Game Gear, Master System, and some other platforms, all games that save have an internal save battery (this system is called SRAM -- battery-backed RAM that requires power to keep data on it). To change it you'll need the special screwdriver that opens the cart, a replacement battery (CR2032 for the major console systems, smaller ones for handheld games), and a way of getting off the old battery and attaching the new one, preferably a soldering iron (and solder)

Some cart games, however, do not have batteries. That is, they use forms of flash memory -- EEPROMs, Ferroelectric RAM (FeRAM), or Flash RAM. For instance, all Neo-Geo Pocket/Pocket Color and Nintendo DS games are on flash cards, so no games on those platforms have internal batteries. Lynx is the same way apparrently.

Atari Jaguar: all games that save use EEPROMs, apparently. Jaguar CD: unknown?

Game Boy Color: most games, and all black carts (dual-mode), use batteries. A few GBC games use EEPROM; you can tell since the carts are transparent, the game has saving, and there's no battery in it.

Game Boy Advance: all four save systems (Flash RAM, FeRAM, EEPROM, and SRAM) are used. Most SRAM games are older titles; most FeRAM games are newer. I don't know of any list that can tell them all apart -- some emulation sites have lists, but they can't determine between FeRAM and SRAM, so the lists are of limited use (if you're trying to determine which of your games have batteries in them without opening the carts).

Genesis: almost all games use batteries. Three games have FeRAM (Sonic 3, Mega Man: The Wily Wars, and one other). Three others have Flash RAM (I think it's not EEPROM anyway): NBA Jam (not TE) and two others. Genesis FeRAM is said to have a nearly 100-year lifespan, but I'm not sure how true that is, and that requires the cart to keep working that long, which is of course far from being a sure thing... (never heard any lifespan times for EEPROM or Flash RAM, just that they eventually can't be saved to once flashed enough times and then can only be read)

Nintendo 64: like the GBA, the N64 uses several systems -- EEPROM, SRAM (battery), and Flash RAM, as well as no saving and Controller Pak (memory card) saves. Half of all N64 games require controller paks to save, including most third party titles; all first-party games use internal save. Of the US-released titles, most N64 games with internal save use EEPROMs. Twelve games use SRAM and a dozen more Flash RAM. The SRAM games include Zelda: Ocarina of Time (but not MM, that's flash), Ogre Battle 64: Person of Lordly Calibur (note that this game also supports controller pak save), 1080 Snowboarding, F-Zero X, Resident Evil 2, The New Tetris, Super Smah Bros., and a few others. It's unfortunate that the SRAM games include so many of the great games on the system, but oh well... at least those batteries can be replaced when they die, unlike dead EEPROM chips, though those of course have far longer lifespans, mostly negating the point...


TurboGrafx 16, Sega CD, and Sega Dreamcast: an internal (not easily replaced) rechargable battery hold the internal save files (settings only for the DC). 3D0 and CD-i too I think. There are a couple of TG-16 games that have interal save batteries, but the vast majority save to the system (note that the TurboExpress portable has no save battery, so it cannot save games).

Saturn: user-replacable battery (CR2032) holds the internal save.

Neo-Geo and Nintendo 64: memory cards (Controller Paks for the N64) use SRAM (batteries are in the cards). Well hidden, in the case of Neo-Geo... (though you could use a new SRAM PCMCIA card, I believe, if your old card dies; for the N64 the best option is copying the files to a PC with a Dexdrive or something like that and replacing the battery...) [Neo-Geo cartridges have no save systems within the carts. Card only.]

Playstation 1/2, Dreamcast, Saturn, Gamecube, Xbox, Xbox 360: proprietary flash memory cards hold save files (for the Saturn this refers to the memory carts; those are flash.).

Xbox, Xbox 360, Playstation 3: internal hard drive save option.

Wii: internal flash memory saves your files (not just config settings like on some previous systems I think).

Wii, PS3: support common format flash cards for media (SD, etc).

Come on guys. Cartridges may not last forever, but everyone of mine still work. I even have a couple Fairchild carts, and they work just fine. If you don’t know what that is, look it up, to find out how old it is. Here is a hint, it is older than the Atari 2600!

All of my cart games work... excepting three Genesis games, which I got used and never worked. One doesn't respond at all (the Sega CD boots); one just goes to a permanant black screen; and one displays the Sega logo, and then stops there... I've tried cleaning them as well as I could, but no change.

As for saving, I only have SNES/Genesis/N64/GB/GBC/GBA (and Gamecube), but while all of my N64, GBA, and Genesis games with batteries are fine so far, some of my GB, GBC, and SNES battery-backed games have dead or dying batteries in them. It's when I realized how annoying an issue this would be that I started to look into it (as this post probably shows)...
 
A Black Falcon said:
First, as far as I know no pre-NES console had in-cart saving (though I could be wrong about that). I don't know how the Lynx or Jaguar/JagCD save. I'd assume battery/internal battery (CD).

Jag used EEPROM. None of the released Lynx games had save functionality (Eye of the Beholder was going to, but it wasn't released).
 

drizzle

Axel Hertz
the year 20XX said:
We'll see in a year.

edit: what's the deal with arcade boards dying? I've heard a little about that before.
Arcade boards don't die, they have chips in them just like a cartidge has.

What happens is that SOME BOARDS are wired to die - hence the CPS2Suicide guides.

You see, capcom put a battery on the CPS2 games (street fighter alpha and so on), that once the batteries die, the board loses the decryption keys for the games (all CPS2 games are encrypted), and then the boards just don't boot anymore - they can't decrypt the encrypted game assets and they just wont run, forcing you to mail it back to capcom so they can reprogram the ram chips with the keys and make the board work again.

Why they did it? to prevent piracy of the arcades (and no, not emulation. Their real enemy is bootleg copies of their arcade machines).

I never heard of any other arcade boards dying, other than misuse.

A Black Falcon said:
This is important because EPROMs only have a 25-year lifespan, compared to the indefinite lifespan of a normal masked ROM. But since all officially-released cartridge games I know of since the NES generation use masked ROMs and not EPROM, it's not a big problem except for 2600 fans.
I have one (or a couple, i'm not sure anymore) genesis pirate game that's on EEPROM instead of masked rom. Proves your point that masked rom for small print is not feasible.

And here's a picture of it:
super_offroad_pir8_eeprom.jpg


Technically, you can reprogram those eeproms with roms that would fit (in this case, super off-road i think has 8megabit). Some well known genesis dumper even managed to create such a device, but only for personal use and out of curiosity (since it wouldn't really be useful for anything).
 
Jag used EEPROM. None of the released Lynx games had save functionality (Eye of the Beholder was going to, but it wasn't released).

Thanks, as I said I didn't know what they used, I'll fix it for the Lynx and Jaguar... that doesn't answer the question of what the Jaguar CD uses to save, though. I guess I could look that up somewhere... I've just never been an Atari console person, so I didn't pay attention to them when looking up this stuff...

Arcade boards don't die, they have chips in them just like a cartidge has.

What happens is that SOME BOARDS are wired to die - hence the CPS2Suicide guides.

You see, capcom put a battery on the CPS2 games (street fighter alpha and so on), that once the batteries die, the board loses the decryption keys for the games (all CPS2 games are encrypted), and then the boards just don't boot anymore - they can't decrypt the encrypted game assets and they just wont run, forcing you to mail it back to capcom so they can reprogram the ram chips with the keys and make the board work again.

Why they did it? to prevent piracy of the arcades (and no, not emulation. Their real enemy is bootleg copies of their arcade machines).

I never heard of any other arcade boards dying, other than misuse.

I didn't address arcade boards, but yes, the main issue are suicide boards... CPS2 isn't the only offender; I've seen a page with a complete list, and a bunch of manufacturers made the things, sadly... :(

(Don't they actually fry the main board when the battery dies? I mean, it's not just "it doesn't work now", but it actually breaks something on the circuit board... hence the "suicide" term...)

I have one (or a couple, i'm not sure anymore) genesis pirate game that's on EEPROM instead of masked rom. Proves your point that masked rom for small print is not feasible.

Don't you mean EPROM? :) EEPROMs are read/write chips like the N64 and GBA use for saving for most titles...

Oh, I didn't know Battlesphere used EPROM. Makes me wonder about that new Genesis game (Beggar Prince)... no relation I know, but it's only a small production. I know it has SRAM with a coin clip for the battery so it can be replaced, though (and normal screws, so the cart is easy to open).
 

drizzle

Axel Hertz
A Black Falcon said:
T
I didn't address arcade boards, but yes, the main issue are suicide boards... CPS2 isn't the only offender; I've seen a page with a complete list, and a bunch of manufacturers made the things, sadly... :(

(Don't they actually fry the main board when the battery dies? I mean, it's not just "it doesn't work now", but it actually breaks something on the circuit board... hence the "suicide" term...)

I'm not sure about other arcade boards, but CPS2shock says:
The CPS-2 game boards are protected by a system that uses encrypted program ROM's. We believe the key data for the decryption of these ROM's is stored in low power S-RAM located inside one of the onboard custom chips. When the game board is switched off or disconnected from the main board, these custom chips are supplied by a 3,6v lithium battery. The average life span of this battery is around five to six years. Once the voltage of this battery is below 2v, the stored encryption key will be lost. The condition of this battery is not measurable due to the fact that lithium batteries will hold their voltage almost constant until the end of their life.

I expect your now thinking what happens to all the early CPS-2 games that are not currently in use. Well its quite simple... They commit suicide, this is how the name 'Capcom Suicide' comes about. Capcom have the ability to bring these dead game boards back to life, of course you will need to send your board to Capcom and pay a fee for their handy work (Capcom USA charged $48+shipping in April of 2002).

Not sure about other boards tho.

A Black Falcon said:
Don't you mean EPROM? :) EEPROMs are read/write chips like the N64 and GBA use for saving for most titles...
I've been told that "chips with little mirror holes in them are EEPROMs and can be erased if a light is flashed on those window thingies".
So i'm not sure. :D
Yes, technically, they should be EPROMs. That particular PIRATE (and i stress that) copy of Super OffRoad apparently has EEPROMs in it. I wouldn't know for sure, that's just what i've been told.
 
But don't they say somewhere else that fixing it yourself requires replacing some chips from a board that is still working or something like that?


I'd link the page with the complete list of N64 games and which save system they use, but it's on a site with lots of information about N64 "backup" units so I'm not sure if that'd be okay here so I won't... same for the suicide battery page... I don't think there's anything wrong with it, but to be safe...
 

drizzle

Axel Hertz
You mean fixing a CPS2 board?
CPS2Shock doesn't go into detail about bringing one back to life. The thing about replacing something while it's on is replacing the battery - to prevent it from dying.

They also replace it for a couple of AA batteries (instead of lithium batteries), which you can measure the power in them and replace them easier when needed (they will also last longer).

"Fixing" the "dead" cps2 boards would require reprogramming of the decryption keys (which nobody found a way to recover them yet), or heavily modding the board with different programming/graphics/sound sources.

i would link the CPS2SHOCK website, but i think that's against the rules or something (it has emulators in it. No roms tho). just google for it.
 
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