siamesedreamer
Banned
spermatic cord said:
Gawd I hope not.
Anyone else see this Killpocalypse? I guess that's 10 kills all within 3 seconds of each other?
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The Official Halo 3 Thread
- Thread starter GhaleonEB
- Start date
- Status
Gawd I hope not.
Anyone else see this Killpocalypse? I guess that's 10 kills all within 3 seconds of each other?
sixthsubset
Banned
Cerrius said:
yeah, but i think it will "feel" like halo in time for many players. it's just they quit before that happens because there's nothing safe and comfy to play on. i remember playing coagulation for two weeks straight after halo 2's launch, and ignoring every other map. which is why i really, really don't understand why there weren't more remakes.
maybe they thought guardian is enough like lockout, but i think part of what made lockout popular is the aesthetics. it's snowy and bright, while guardian is dark and dreary, which really makes it less fun to play on like what happened from wizard to warlock.
So, I want to talk about the story in Halo 3. I've been thinking about it for a long time (almost as long as it will take anyone to read this). I've griped, but it does a lot really well. And some stuff, not so well (IMO, of course). I don't want to post a giant wall of black blocks, so be warned: SPOILERS AHOY.
I'm not as articulate as Voc nor as insightful, but I'll be damned if I can't churn out the volume with the most vociferous of'em. This is less about the story per se, than how the game tells it.
Cliffs Notes version in bold.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Luke Smith: What do you think separates a good mission from a bad mission, or what changes between a good mission and a great mission?
Paul Bertone: [ .] Good missions, on an encounter to encounter basis have high-level fiction, the low-level mission fiction, and then each encounter has a little story that its going to tell; it has nice little start to it, maybe a lull in the middle, some reinforcement that come in in a cool way, its not just the same thing. It sort of gives people something to look at and understand, talk about, think about after theyve finished playing an encounter, as opposed to just wanting to run to the next base and kill the next group of aliens and move on to the next base. Good missions have everything: great visuals, great combat, great fiction. You take any one of those things out and you dont have a great mission. Take more than one of those things out and you run the risk of not having a very fun mission to play.
Bungie Studios Podcast, 9-11-2007, 21:15
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This provides a good framework to look at Halo's story telling in. Three levels of the narrative, from lowest level to highest: encounters, missions and story arc. My initial reaction to Halo 3's story was decidedly mixed, and I have struggled with articulating why. This framework has helped me understand where Halo 3 succeeds and where it doesn't, why it's both intense and interesting from moment to moment but ultimately unsatisfying. Simply put, Halo 3 tells the best encounter and mission fiction in the series, but the least interesting and least satisfying overall story arc.
For example, in the first mission, the overarching goal is to get the Chief from his crash site to the extraction point, where he will be transported to the underground UNSC base. Along the way, the mission fiction includes the Pelicans being shot down and the capture and subsequent rescue of Johnson. Along the way through the mission, there is encounter-level context, such as the Brute interrogating the Marine ("kiss.....my......"), the pack hunting the Chief, and Johnson being used as bait to lure the Chief out and set up the climactic encounter in the mission. Ultimately, the game is just providing reasons for the player to plow through multiple encounters, but it feels like there's an immediate reason to do so, along the way to achieving a bigger goal. Overall, Halo 3 packs a lot more of that low-level narrative into the game than the previous titles and the result is gameplay that feels more urgent and relevant to the mission at hand than ever before in the series.
Halo 3's narrative strength is apparent when comparing a mission such as Assault on the Control Room in Halo 1 with a similar, largely outdoors mission in Halo 3, The Ark. In AotCR, the goal is to, up, get the Chief to the titular Control Room. Along the way there's encounter fiction such as rescuing two groups of Marines and some Covenant groups on patrol, clearly defending the path to the Control Room. But little else happens over the course of the entire (quite lengthy) mission: it's just a long fight to get from point A to point B.
By contrast, The Ark consists of a series of sub-goals beginning with clearing a landing zone for Forward Unto Dawn, itself a multi-step process. Once that is completed and she lands, the mission changes. The next round of encounters begins as the assault on the...Map Room. Tearing through multiple layers of vehicular defense and then into the building itself consists of a rapid series of events ("Tank beats everything!"). At the end of the day, it's still just a series of battles as we move from point A to point B, but the denser narration of each encounter leading into the sub-goals, all in support of the overall mission goal makes for a more urgent, often thrilling experience. Which is not to say there are not lapses in Halo 3 (Cortana) or good examples in Halo 1 or 2 (Silent Cartographer).
Which is why it's so disappointing that there's little story taking place at the higher level. Through the first four missions of Halo 3, not much really happens. In Sierra 117, the Chief is extracted to the UNSC base. In Crow's Nest, they hatch a plan to strike Truth and then bail out of the base. Tsavo Highway is just a journey to Voi, while Voi is a mission to clear the AA tanks and guns. There little character work or exposition, and the overall goal is simple: get from the jungle to Voi and clear a flight path to Truth's ship. Contrast this with the story of Halo 2 in a similar number of missions,with its myriad of character introductions and multiple plot lines opening up. The Covenant arrive at earth, destroy the outer defenses and are ultimately beaten off; the Arbiter is created and then finds and kills the Heretic leader, while first encountering and then neutralizing a Flood outbreak. We learn about the structure of the Covenant and its society, and the dual paths of the Chief and Arbiter are set in motion.
Some of the longer exposition in Halo 2 can be attributed to its place in the trilogy: it has more leg work to do in order to introduce and develop characters, such as Truth, Tartarus, Half-Jaw, the Arbiter, Miranda. Halo 3 is just moving existing charters through the final steps of their respective story arcs. But even more is due to the deliberate shift to a more focused narration in Halo 3. There is only one perspective this time around with the Chief, and missions are seldom interrupted by cinematics. When they are, it is only briefly; overall Halo 3's cinematics run for about half the time that Halo 2's did. This is significant, because the game has a lot of story to address, and with the missions jam-packed with encounter and mission fiction, not much of the story arc takes place during gameplay. It's nearly all crammed into the cinematics.
Which might partly explain why the overall story is so disappointing to me. Among the story lines, Cortana's was most prominent at the end of Halo 2 in the build up to Halo 3. Bungie repeatedly teased about the significance of her being "in the clutches of the Gravemind" in interviews and vidocs. The announcement trailer hinted strongly that something was very wrong with her, and the promotional materials featured Cortana as an ominous figure. In the eight missions leading up to Cortana's rescue, we see numerous, mysterious transmissions hinting at some horrible situation she's in. Finally, when we find her, she says "it may be too late". She's messed up, "so much of me is wrong, out of place". And then she stands up and is all of sudden just fine. The entire three year gap from the end of Halo 2, the eighteen month tease by Bungie and an eight level fight through the game itself all led up to....nothing.
While not as disappointing as Cortana's story, the remaining fights in Halo 3 are finished only by implication. We never see the conclusion of the fight with Half-Jaw's fleet against the Brutes, we just have to assume he won and that the entirety of the Covenant fleet was defeated. There's no discussion about the true purpose of the Ark; everyone takes the reveal that it's a Halo forge with remarkable aplomb, and no conversation. The Flood is assumed defeated, though five Halo rings remain, and their fate is left open. Humanity's situation on Earth is never addressed, other than through hints. (We learn in the bonus materials that humanity is down to a mere 200 million, representing a slaughter of billions.) Most disappointing of all, the Arbiter is sidelined entirely. Part of this is due to the shift in narrative focus to the Chief, but even in scenes when he is present, he takes sidekick role.
But there's some good story in the Arbiter's actions, sidelined though he is. From the first rough meeting of he and the Chief, there's a gradual friendship that develops between the two warriors, expressed almost entirely through action. The silent swapping of weapons after Floodgate was a subtle way to reverse the Elite's distaste for human weaponry. When the Arbiter shows up at the end of Cortana, it's a silent statement of camaraderie. And on the way to the final mission, he says, "this is our fight" - his and the Chief's. His repeating the line, "Were it so easy," at the end of the game was rousing to me; the circle from adversary to admirer of his peer in combat was complete, perfectly. It was also interesting to hear how Half-Jaw mentioned that he would have glassed Earth were it not for the Arbiter's counsel. The wording, and with Half-Jaw floating in that chair, really reminded me of how Truth referred to the other Prophets in Halo 2; it was a glimpse of the new hierarchy being established in the Elite ranks.
The Terminals have a lot of interesting stuff in there, but I've actually had a hard time understanding it. I read a few in teh game, and all of them at a wiki, and still didn't understand them. Voc did a good job of explaining the narrative, but I wish that kind of story was woven into the game itself. A cool extra for those who could penetrate it, but it was beyond me.
In the end, I felt like Halo 3 was a great story to experience, but not one to think about. This is disappointing, because in the previous two titles Bungie crafted a universe I've spent the past six years thinking about. Halo 3 leaves as many questions open as the last title did, and actually pulled back from the narrative that I loved in the second title. What Halo 3 gained in clarity it lost in overall impact. It was more effective at wrapping up character arcs (Miranda, Truth, 343 Guilty Spark, Johnson, the Arbiter, Half-Jaw, Lord Hood) than the overall story (the Flood, the Halo installations, the Human-Covenant war).
And the Legendary ending simply should not have been done (and ESPECIALLY with that music - which actually made me angry).
One last note: I think it was back in the Beta thread where I said if I get one thing out of Halo 3, it's an understanding of this exchange from Halo 1:
I was hoping that Halo 3 would pull the curtain back just a bit so that I could view some parts of the first two games in a new context. I realize the whole trilogy wasn't planned out from the beginning, but that was clearly a hint at something Bungie had in mind. I still don't understand that exchange, and probably never will. I've read the theories, but I was hoping not to theorize about it.
Apologies for those who went all of the way through that, but I wanted to get it off my chest.
I'm not as articulate as Voc nor as insightful, but I'll be damned if I can't churn out the volume with the most vociferous of'em. This is less about the story per se, than how the game tells it.
Cliffs Notes version in bold.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Luke Smith: What do you think separates a good mission from a bad mission, or what changes between a good mission and a great mission?
Paul Bertone: [ .] Good missions, on an encounter to encounter basis have high-level fiction, the low-level mission fiction, and then each encounter has a little story that its going to tell; it has nice little start to it, maybe a lull in the middle, some reinforcement that come in in a cool way, its not just the same thing. It sort of gives people something to look at and understand, talk about, think about after theyve finished playing an encounter, as opposed to just wanting to run to the next base and kill the next group of aliens and move on to the next base. Good missions have everything: great visuals, great combat, great fiction. You take any one of those things out and you dont have a great mission. Take more than one of those things out and you run the risk of not having a very fun mission to play.
Bungie Studios Podcast, 9-11-2007, 21:15
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This provides a good framework to look at Halo's story telling in. Three levels of the narrative, from lowest level to highest: encounters, missions and story arc. My initial reaction to Halo 3's story was decidedly mixed, and I have struggled with articulating why. This framework has helped me understand where Halo 3 succeeds and where it doesn't, why it's both intense and interesting from moment to moment but ultimately unsatisfying. Simply put, Halo 3 tells the best encounter and mission fiction in the series, but the least interesting and least satisfying overall story arc.
For example, in the first mission, the overarching goal is to get the Chief from his crash site to the extraction point, where he will be transported to the underground UNSC base. Along the way, the mission fiction includes the Pelicans being shot down and the capture and subsequent rescue of Johnson. Along the way through the mission, there is encounter-level context, such as the Brute interrogating the Marine ("kiss.....my......"), the pack hunting the Chief, and Johnson being used as bait to lure the Chief out and set up the climactic encounter in the mission. Ultimately, the game is just providing reasons for the player to plow through multiple encounters, but it feels like there's an immediate reason to do so, along the way to achieving a bigger goal. Overall, Halo 3 packs a lot more of that low-level narrative into the game than the previous titles and the result is gameplay that feels more urgent and relevant to the mission at hand than ever before in the series.
Halo 3's narrative strength is apparent when comparing a mission such as Assault on the Control Room in Halo 1 with a similar, largely outdoors mission in Halo 3, The Ark. In AotCR, the goal is to, up, get the Chief to the titular Control Room. Along the way there's encounter fiction such as rescuing two groups of Marines and some Covenant groups on patrol, clearly defending the path to the Control Room. But little else happens over the course of the entire (quite lengthy) mission: it's just a long fight to get from point A to point B.
By contrast, The Ark consists of a series of sub-goals beginning with clearing a landing zone for Forward Unto Dawn, itself a multi-step process. Once that is completed and she lands, the mission changes. The next round of encounters begins as the assault on the...Map Room. Tearing through multiple layers of vehicular defense and then into the building itself consists of a rapid series of events ("Tank beats everything!"). At the end of the day, it's still just a series of battles as we move from point A to point B, but the denser narration of each encounter leading into the sub-goals, all in support of the overall mission goal makes for a more urgent, often thrilling experience. Which is not to say there are not lapses in Halo 3 (Cortana) or good examples in Halo 1 or 2 (Silent Cartographer).
Which is why it's so disappointing that there's little story taking place at the higher level. Through the first four missions of Halo 3, not much really happens. In Sierra 117, the Chief is extracted to the UNSC base. In Crow's Nest, they hatch a plan to strike Truth and then bail out of the base. Tsavo Highway is just a journey to Voi, while Voi is a mission to clear the AA tanks and guns. There little character work or exposition, and the overall goal is simple: get from the jungle to Voi and clear a flight path to Truth's ship. Contrast this with the story of Halo 2 in a similar number of missions,with its myriad of character introductions and multiple plot lines opening up. The Covenant arrive at earth, destroy the outer defenses and are ultimately beaten off; the Arbiter is created and then finds and kills the Heretic leader, while first encountering and then neutralizing a Flood outbreak. We learn about the structure of the Covenant and its society, and the dual paths of the Chief and Arbiter are set in motion.
Some of the longer exposition in Halo 2 can be attributed to its place in the trilogy: it has more leg work to do in order to introduce and develop characters, such as Truth, Tartarus, Half-Jaw, the Arbiter, Miranda. Halo 3 is just moving existing charters through the final steps of their respective story arcs. But even more is due to the deliberate shift to a more focused narration in Halo 3. There is only one perspective this time around with the Chief, and missions are seldom interrupted by cinematics. When they are, it is only briefly; overall Halo 3's cinematics run for about half the time that Halo 2's did. This is significant, because the game has a lot of story to address, and with the missions jam-packed with encounter and mission fiction, not much of the story arc takes place during gameplay. It's nearly all crammed into the cinematics.
Which might partly explain why the overall story is so disappointing to me. Among the story lines, Cortana's was most prominent at the end of Halo 2 in the build up to Halo 3. Bungie repeatedly teased about the significance of her being "in the clutches of the Gravemind" in interviews and vidocs. The announcement trailer hinted strongly that something was very wrong with her, and the promotional materials featured Cortana as an ominous figure. In the eight missions leading up to Cortana's rescue, we see numerous, mysterious transmissions hinting at some horrible situation she's in. Finally, when we find her, she says "it may be too late". She's messed up, "so much of me is wrong, out of place". And then she stands up and is all of sudden just fine. The entire three year gap from the end of Halo 2, the eighteen month tease by Bungie and an eight level fight through the game itself all led up to....nothing.
While not as disappointing as Cortana's story, the remaining fights in Halo 3 are finished only by implication. We never see the conclusion of the fight with Half-Jaw's fleet against the Brutes, we just have to assume he won and that the entirety of the Covenant fleet was defeated. There's no discussion about the true purpose of the Ark; everyone takes the reveal that it's a Halo forge with remarkable aplomb, and no conversation. The Flood is assumed defeated, though five Halo rings remain, and their fate is left open. Humanity's situation on Earth is never addressed, other than through hints. (We learn in the bonus materials that humanity is down to a mere 200 million, representing a slaughter of billions.) Most disappointing of all, the Arbiter is sidelined entirely. Part of this is due to the shift in narrative focus to the Chief, but even in scenes when he is present, he takes sidekick role.
But there's some good story in the Arbiter's actions, sidelined though he is. From the first rough meeting of he and the Chief, there's a gradual friendship that develops between the two warriors, expressed almost entirely through action. The silent swapping of weapons after Floodgate was a subtle way to reverse the Elite's distaste for human weaponry. When the Arbiter shows up at the end of Cortana, it's a silent statement of camaraderie. And on the way to the final mission, he says, "this is our fight" - his and the Chief's. His repeating the line, "Were it so easy," at the end of the game was rousing to me; the circle from adversary to admirer of his peer in combat was complete, perfectly. It was also interesting to hear how Half-Jaw mentioned that he would have glassed Earth were it not for the Arbiter's counsel. The wording, and with Half-Jaw floating in that chair, really reminded me of how Truth referred to the other Prophets in Halo 2; it was a glimpse of the new hierarchy being established in the Elite ranks.
The Terminals have a lot of interesting stuff in there, but I've actually had a hard time understanding it. I read a few in teh game, and all of them at a wiki, and still didn't understand them. Voc did a good job of explaining the narrative, but I wish that kind of story was woven into the game itself. A cool extra for those who could penetrate it, but it was beyond me.
In the end, I felt like Halo 3 was a great story to experience, but not one to think about. This is disappointing, because in the previous two titles Bungie crafted a universe I've spent the past six years thinking about. Halo 3 leaves as many questions open as the last title did, and actually pulled back from the narrative that I loved in the second title. What Halo 3 gained in clarity it lost in overall impact. It was more effective at wrapping up character arcs (Miranda, Truth, 343 Guilty Spark, Johnson, the Arbiter, Half-Jaw, Lord Hood) than the overall story (the Flood, the Halo installations, the Human-Covenant war).
And the Legendary ending simply should not have been done (and ESPECIALLY with that music - which actually made me angry).
One last note: I think it was back in the Beta thread where I said if I get one thing out of Halo 3, it's an understanding of this exchange from Halo 1:
Halo said:
I was hoping that Halo 3 would pull the curtain back just a bit so that I could view some parts of the first two games in a new context. I realize the whole trilogy wasn't planned out from the beginning, but that was clearly a hint at something Bungie had in mind. I still don't understand that exchange, and probably never will. I've read the theories, but I was hoping not to theorize about it.
Apologies for those who went all of the way through that, but I wanted to get it off my chest.
Son of Godzilla
Banned
GhaleonEB said:
The Chief = Church.
Anyways, Hi Official Halo 3 Thread. I haven't read this since like a week after launch. I was really hoping Halo 3 would escape my constant play a game a week and dump it lethargy, but alas.
D
Deleted member 21120
Unconfirmed Member
After tonight, I officially think the ranking system is complete crap.
I start out as a 23, and I go into Team Slayer with three friends.
Game one: We win, 50 - 22
Game two: We win, 50 - 11
Game three: We win, 50 - 31
Game four: We win, 50 - 24
Game five: We win, 50 -28
Game six: We win, 50 - 10
Look at those scores. Look at them. I remained a 23 the entire time. In fact, no one in our party leveled up.
I mean... that's six games in a row. And it's documented - you can see my rank in each game. We weren't cheating or anything like that. You can look at each game, in detail, right there on bnet and see that they were all completely legit. It's just... baffling. It's beyond my comprehension that we never ranked up, even one point. Not one of us.
I don't doubt that there is a system that calculates how rankings are given out. But it should be obvious now that the system is crap. It probably has so many exceptions built in to stop cheaters that it's just screwing everyone.
Sort of like the melee system.
I start out as a 23, and I go into Team Slayer with three friends.
Game one: We win, 50 - 22
Game two: We win, 50 - 11
Game three: We win, 50 - 31
Game four: We win, 50 - 24
Game five: We win, 50 -28
Game six: We win, 50 - 10
Look at those scores. Look at them. I remained a 23 the entire time. In fact, no one in our party leveled up.
I mean... that's six games in a row. And it's documented - you can see my rank in each game. We weren't cheating or anything like that. You can look at each game, in detail, right there on bnet and see that they were all completely legit. It's just... baffling. It's beyond my comprehension that we never ranked up, even one point. Not one of us.
I don't doubt that there is a system that calculates how rankings are given out. But it should be obvious now that the system is crap. It probably has so many exceptions built in to stop cheaters that it's just screwing everyone.
Sort of like the melee system.
RocketMoose
Member
In understanding Halo 3's ranking system, it is usefull to look at the levels of your opponents in the matches you played...
Game one: We win, 50 - 22 (23,17,16,11)
Game two: We win, 50 - 11 (23,22,6,4)
Game three: We win, 50 - 31 (23,22,14,9)
Game four: We win, 50 - 24 (23,22,14,9)
Game five: We win, 50 -28 (23,22,14,9)
Game six: We win, 50 - 10 (23, 11, 8, 4)
In each case, you were the highest level member of your own party, and were higher than all but one player of the party you beat. In general, players of significantly lower level than you will not help your skill go up. It appears that the other, lower-leveled members of your party did level up several times during your winning streak [Edit: only Niterider2004 by a level]. It is likely that the level 23 and 22 players did help you move towards a higher skill level, but slowly.
In general Halo 3's skill system is not designed for grinding. It is designed to determine your skill level, then make slow adjustments to it as your play style improves or degrades over time. Most players of the game will find that their skill progression (and regression) slows down a lot over time. The purpose is not to put everyone who plays enough at level 50, but instead to put players toghter in the tightest, most competitive matches possible, where every game is down-to-the-wire fun. While the system is not very transparant to players, it does a lot better at putting players on a skill curve than Halo 2 did. In an ideal world, after being placed at your correct rank, you would win exactly 50% of your matches, and all those matches would be close.
Halo 3 is based on the a modification of the trueskill system. You can find out a lot more about the system at Microsoft's trueskill page. The site even has a simulator where you can watch how skill levels change over time.
Game one: We win, 50 - 22 (23,17,16,11)
Game two: We win, 50 - 11 (23,22,6,4)
Game three: We win, 50 - 31 (23,22,14,9)
Game four: We win, 50 - 24 (23,22,14,9)
Game five: We win, 50 -28 (23,22,14,9)
Game six: We win, 50 - 10 (23, 11, 8, 4)
In each case, you were the highest level member of your own party, and were higher than all but one player of the party you beat. In general, players of significantly lower level than you will not help your skill go up. It appears that the other, lower-leveled members of your party did level up several times during your winning streak [Edit: only Niterider2004 by a level]. It is likely that the level 23 and 22 players did help you move towards a higher skill level, but slowly.
In general Halo 3's skill system is not designed for grinding. It is designed to determine your skill level, then make slow adjustments to it as your play style improves or degrades over time. Most players of the game will find that their skill progression (and regression) slows down a lot over time. The purpose is not to put everyone who plays enough at level 50, but instead to put players toghter in the tightest, most competitive matches possible, where every game is down-to-the-wire fun. While the system is not very transparant to players, it does a lot better at putting players on a skill curve than Halo 2 did. In an ideal world, after being placed at your correct rank, you would win exactly 50% of your matches, and all those matches would be close.
Halo 3 is based on the a modification of the trueskill system. You can find out a lot more about the system at Microsoft's trueskill page. The site even has a simulator where you can watch how skill levels change over time.
D
Deleted member 21120
Unconfirmed Member
Thanks for your detailed response, but I want to address this part. I understand these things, and I have noticed a slowdown; I'm a 45 in Lone Wolves, and after multiple wins, I can't seem to rank up any more. However, what bothered me about last night's situation is that the system wasn't doing what you said it was intended to do: "to put players toghter in the tightest, most competitive matches possible, where every game is down-to-the-wire fun." As you could see from last night, that wasn't happening. We eventually stopped playing Team Slayer and moved to a different playlist because we were so frustrated with not moving up in skill level and playing some different folks. IIRC, we got matched with one poor group of guys three times.RocketMoose said:
After our fifth or sixth win, we started talking about what reasoning there could be in the system to keep us from ranking up. My concern was, and is, this: that we weren't moving up in rank because the system noticed that I was a much higher level than some of the others on our team, and it was attempting to keep us from "boosting," as it was called in Halo 2. Like you said, the system is based on the trueskill system. Just like changing the melee system to account for past complaints, I thought it likely that us not ranking up was due to our mixed levels, and the system attempting to prevent us from "boosting."
Anyway, I understand how the system is supposed to work. It just wasn't doing any of that last night. I mean, you can look at our games and see. It wasn't levelling us up to allow us to play better players - and we certainly needed to. And none of the games were that fun because of that.
I'll be honest, I know I'm just a guy at home playing this game. I know next to nothing about how it works. But you have to understand how I related this to the melee system change: I was trying to give credit to the trueskill modification that you used for the game, by assuming that it was trying to keep us from boosting. And it seemed, just like the melee system, to be a change implemented to address past complaints. However, it's affecting legitimate players adversely in the process.
Diablohead
Member
So far i;ve got all my achievements legit, I don't see it as one if someone has to line up for you to get it.Kuroyume said:
It's why I don't have the sword achiement yet
I'm halfway through Contact Harvest and surprisingly it's my favourite Halo book so far. I had my doubts after blazing through the prologue that was posted on B.net, but even though my concerns were justified, the staggering amount of detail in Staten's writing is actually a positive aspect.
It's completely different than the other books, much more subtle and personal and it replaced FoR as my favourite candidate for a TV miniseries (a movie wouldn't do it any justice, especially the calmer moments).
I hope that the PJ project goes in the same direction.
It's completely different than the other books, much more subtle and personal and it replaced FoR as my favourite candidate for a TV miniseries (a movie wouldn't do it any justice, especially the calmer moments).
I hope that the PJ project goes in the same direction.
Totally agree with you Ghaleon, all the questions answered and all the gaps filled by Halo 3 made it feel like all it was doing was answering to everything raised in Halo 2's story, it didn't seem to add it's own chapter, just concluded the parts of Halo 2, and it made its conclusion simple and short and that, for me, left me unsatisfied.
The Terminals seem to have the 'meat' and thanks to Halo's great community I could understand it, that coupled with the legendary cut scene leaves hope for another game/more story (I want a sequel to Onyx more than anything though) so I'm not leaving the 'Halo Universe fiction' just yet. (Still miffed at the 'only remaining Spartan' path they choose in the marketing and the story's of the Halo games, Grrr)
So Halo 2 lacked conclusion and now Halo 3 has too much. Sheesh! fans hey?
The Terminals seem to have the 'meat' and thanks to Halo's great community I could understand it, that coupled with the legendary cut scene leaves hope for another game/more story (I want a sequel to Onyx more than anything though) so I'm not leaving the 'Halo Universe fiction' just yet. (Still miffed at the 'only remaining Spartan' path they choose in the marketing and the story's of the Halo games, Grrr)
So Halo 2 lacked conclusion and now Halo 3 has too much. Sheesh! fans hey?
McBradders
NeoGAF: my new HOME
GhaleonEB said:
Agree. I'm disappointed with the Cortana angle in 3. They spent a lot of the GAME building her up, building up that whole Damsel in Distress angle, and it felt very urgent that she be rescued at some point, however saving it until the last but one act was a misfire, IMO. I think if we'd have rescued her on Earth, then spent the "Cortana" level fixing her, it would have been much more satisfying narritively, and gameplay wise.
Imagine a crazy Cortana in your ear, barking wrong orders, telling you how sick she was. It would have been totally awesome. She's been "your sword" and "your shield" for 2 games, you're used to asking how high when she says jump... missed opportunity totale.
Overall that's the only thing that sticks out to me. Her and the Chief's "love story" was kinda the part I was looking forward to most and where the game delivered least.
Le sigh?
Instigator
Banned
McBradders said:
We've had that in MGS2. Not again. Thanks.
McBradders
NeoGAF: my new HOME
Instigator said:
"EE?"
"Please... call me Emma!"
"EE?!"
:lol
Gosh I hated that game :lol
GhaleonEB said:
This is the worst offender for me.
Leaving the Flood as a threat to the galaxy with the main failsafe destroyed is not finishing the fight.
And I guess that's cool. I mean, I could hardly expect them to truly dump the franchise and it's main protagonists and antagonists, but I can't help but feeling that the most important storyline of the series was left open and incomplete. Again, we're left to speculate and guess, and while I love that for some of the more mysterious elements of the tale, it feels wrong for the main arc. It feels unfinished.
"A father's sins pass to his son."
Indeed they do. And the Flood offers no forgiveness.
ToyMachine228
Member
urk said:
There's so many things I'd like to see personally that could, or could not happen depending on what direction you take story elements of Halo 3. Things like
a trip to the Covenant homeworld. The Elites may or may not pull the Covenant back together, which leaves a big question mark. The Brutes, Drones, Jackals, Grunts and Hunters could still pose a threat and certainly would were Master Chief to travel to their homeworld although I believe that in concept they all have DIFFERENT homeworlds as the Covenant was formed by The Prophets and Elites conquering other races, and bringing them into the Covenant fold. So technically they all originate from different worlds, yet I'm sure they have a "capital world"
The Forerunners are also still a questionmark. Halo 3 didn't really make it clear that humans ARE Forerunners, but they are at least in some way related. Whether the terms "father" and "son" are to be taken literally, or figuratively meaning the Forerunners set things up to allow humans to bloom isn't really clear. And even if Forerunners ARE humans, they could have evolved into their own race and I would like to see that explored.
And there's obviously always other galaxies and new races to be found so who knows what direction the series will be taken in the future.
The Forerunners are also still a questionmark. Halo 3 didn't really make it clear that humans ARE Forerunners, but they are at least in some way related. Whether the terms "father" and "son" are to be taken literally, or figuratively meaning the Forerunners set things up to allow humans to bloom isn't really clear. And even if Forerunners ARE humans, they could have evolved into their own race and I would like to see that explored.
And there's obviously always other galaxies and new races to be found so who knows what direction the series will be taken in the future.
ToyMachine228 said:
Each race has its own homeworld, except for the Prophets who claimed their world was destroyed millenia ago. It's implied that this might not be true, and that their homeworld was hidden as a precaution during their war with the Elites... but regardless they set a home on High Charity, which became the Covenant's "capital".
The Beastariums in the non-standard editions of the game clarify matters here. I'd imagine there's room for some gameplay regarding the Arbiter's return to Sangheilios, but who knows?
Interesting analysis, I had a few points I wanted to bring up for further discussion. Obviously, story is subjective and interpretive, so I'm not saying you're wrong, I just disagreed with a few things:
Throughout the game we have the Cortana messages, and they constantly reminded me of how much I missed having her as a companion. So, when MC and Cortana were reunited, it wasn't just MC on-screen feeling relief, I did too. It's not like in Zelda 27: The Awful Enemies where I rescue generic Princess Zelda iteration #27, and don't really care. I was actually missing her throughout the game, as did MC, and I was glad to be back with her.
But I do agree, the build-up to her rescue is very misleading.
I didn't mind the LE, it was cool to know that the story is going new places and all that, but I'll end up liking the LE a lot more if Bungie doesn't make another Halo game.
I don't really disagree with this, there really isn't a ton of story progression through the first few missions. Visually, there's a lot going on, especially with the nearby battles and ark opening and the weather and sky changing throughout The Storm, but the story isn't progressing that much. I just wanted to add that the decision to handle the story this way is more than likely a result of all the complaining after H2, the confusion, the people not finishing the game, the Arbiter-hate. You've seen how mad I get when people talk about the Arbiter being a bad character. The Arbiter is my favorite character from the trilogy, it's depressing to me that so many people just got so easily confused at the rapid pace of the H2 story and retreated to multiplayer.GhaleonEB said:
I'm not so sure I agree. I was also a bit surprised at the fact that Cortana was not messed up, and recovered very quickly, but I really liked the lead up, and the reunion itself.GhaleonEB said:
Throughout the game we have the Cortana messages, and they constantly reminded me of how much I missed having her as a companion. So, when MC and Cortana were reunited, it wasn't just MC on-screen feeling relief, I did too. It's not like in Zelda 27: The Awful Enemies where I rescue generic Princess Zelda iteration #27, and don't really care. I was actually missing her throughout the game, as did MC, and I was glad to be back with her.
But I do agree, the build-up to her rescue is very misleading.
This pissed me off. I'm a big Half-Jaw fan.GhaleonEB said:
To me, this sounds like asking too much. I mean, the game has to end at some point. Do you want a cinematic showing the destruction of the remaining rings and containment facilities, or do you want to play through this? I mean, as long as the flood that were free to move throughout the Galaxy are all killed, the fight seems finished, for now. I don't mean to sound snotty, I'm just saying that them being trapped on 5 rings scattered throughout the galaxy is not exactly a bad situation.GhaleonEB said:
Poor Arby. He's so... awesome. Stupid Halo 2 haters. I wish death to them all.GhaleonEB said:
Wait... what am I missing here? What was wrong with the music?GhaleonEB said:
I didn't mind the LE, it was cool to know that the story is going new places and all that, but I'll end up liking the LE a lot more if Bungie doesn't make another Halo game.
D
Deleted member 21120
Unconfirmed Member
It was. This confirms my suspicion that the system is purposely not allowing us to rank up to prevent "boosting." That, or it just can't handle mixed parties... but I doubt that's the case. This seems to be another example of Bungie trying to fix something, but ultimately causing problems for people that weren't affected by the problem in the first place. And again, I can't blame them for wanting to stop boosters (or remove host advantage), but this minor tweak is causing problems for us legitmate players. If that is, indeed, what's causing us to not rank appropriately while in a mixed party.armubaba said:
Buttonbasher
Member
:lolthe disgruntled gamer said:
The Lamonster
Member
It's about time for some major updates. BR starts. Melee fix. Better gametypes in matchmaking (Shotty Snipers, too much VIP/Territories, 1 Flag on symmetrical maps? wtf). Lack of a 'community' playlist. Ranking system. Bungie favorites. Saving films in Theater lobby only. Lack of fire weapons on map.
I'm getting sick of being annoyed at this near-perfect game's little quirks. Just fix a handful of tiny things, and this game will be the greatest game ever.
I'm getting sick of being annoyed at this near-perfect game's little quirks. Just fix a handful of tiny things, and this game will be the greatest game ever.
D
Deleted member 21120
Unconfirmed Member
Unfortunately, I don't think some of those things will get "fixed," seeing as how I don't think Bungie considers them to be problems.The Lamonster said:
And you hater. It is still the greatest game ever, even with these minor issues.
The Lamonster
Member
Exactly. That's why they exist in the first place. However, I'd bet money that at least a couple of these things will be fixed in time. Looking at Halo 2's history, it was a while before we got a BR starting playlist (Team Hardcore), but we eventually did. Also, if there ever is a patch, I bet they'll add the X to save film function that was in the beta. It just doesn't make sense that they took it out.Cocopjojo said:
And yes, it's still the greatest MULTIPLAYER game ever. But IMHO, it could be a bit better.
Noobs are slaughtered either way because they are noobs. I bet you never played Halo 1 multiplayer or Halo 2 Team Hardcore. It's fun, yo.Frenck said:
RocketMoose
Member
Cocopjojo said:
H3 does allow you to rank up as a party of mixed players, but there are a few other factors in play. When you are in a mixed party the game matches you only against other mixed level parties (So you don't get the H2 situation where you get matched up with a level 40 playing with a level 1 so they can beat up on noobs). It will try to match you with the most similar party it can find to your own level mix, and try to avoid repeated enemies if possible. However, if you do play against the same enemies multiple times (as you did in the game you played), your skill will not go up as much in subsequent games, as it already "knows" that you should be able to beat these players.
D
Deleted member 21120
Unconfirmed Member
This system sounds like the most complicated, confusing thing I've ever heard of in my entire life. :lol No wonder all we've ever gotten on it are passing comments from Frank. He probably doesn't understand it and all of the variables it factors in anymore than we do.RocketMoose said:
I understand its purpose, and I know it does its job. But you can see how it can be frustrating at times. Like in my situation, for example.
godhandiscen
There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
BR starts... no plz. I know everybody wants it, but if this happens then I will be screwed up again like in Halo 2.
Instigator
Banned
the disgruntled gamer said:
All that jazz only begins at level 3. I like Sierra 117 as a level, even though it serves no critical purpose. Crow's Nest could have been cut altogether...
Yep.
It's like Bungie went from one extreme to another. But in comparison, I look at Halo 2 fondly. At least for the story anyway.
If he didn't have such sucky levels in the first half of Halo 2, I'm sure people would have liked him more.
I have no problem with the reunion itself though the level she is in is doing a disservice to the overall enjoyment of the game. And as Ghaleon complained, it's like she wasn't even in trouble anyway. It's a double failure on Bungie's part.
But that part of the narrative was not handled too well. Made me wish for her to shut up.
I can't believe this wasn't brought up by the beta testers.
The Half Jaw love reminds me of the Boba Fett love in the SW series.
But I do agree we were cheated of one or two levels with the two fleets fighting each other.
Coupled with the overall lenght of Campaign, one has to wonder if Bungie really had the time to do Halo 3 or did they figure people would eat it up anyway, no matter how long it was.
Nah, it goes back to how Gravemind was handled. Heard but not shown and never fought. What kind of villain is this? Halo 3 seems so consumed with its main (mostly human) protagonists that it forgets the adversaries you're fighting. At least we got to see Truth killed, but that's only because the Arbiter wanted his 'revenge'.
It's not. But the gamers are cheated again.
I didn't mind it either, but I'd prefer a Forerunner connection over a Marathon one...
Digital Limit
Member
Quick question:
What was the last first person shooter to do scoring in the campaign, ala metagame from Halo 3?
What was the last first person shooter to do scoring in the campaign, ala metagame from Halo 3?
The Lamonster
Member
I mean only for one playlist. I don't want to see system-wide BR starts.godhandiscen said:
I don't mind having a hardcore playlist. At least, the way the population is right now, the game can sustain more playlists. But don't make a hardcore playlist at the expense of a ranked BTB.
The map shows more flood infection as you play. It's nothing big, but look at the grass. There are more pods and it looks a lot uglier.
Ramirez said:
The map shows more flood infection as you play. It's nothing big, but look at the grass. There are more pods and it looks a lot uglier.
Mr Vociferous
Member
I agree with every single point you made Ghaleon. It's quite clear to me that Halo 2 has the best story out of all of them and it wasn't even executed to its greatest detail. Concepts like the suspicious attitude of Miranda to the Chief, the understanding of the Covenant story and the epic finale into the Ark against Truth would have made for a perfect conclusion to the story.GhaleonEB said:
While Halo 3 is a fantastic game, clearly head-and-shoulders above any competition in terms of overall product, a lot of the high concept story is glossed over by assumption. The details, even the ones present in the bullishly depicted Halo: Combat Evolved story, are not here (save for the powerful terminals which should be somewhere buried in the cinematics instead - they're that fucking awesome). The encounters and scale of Halo 3 are certainly to write home about, but the fact that the story isn't fleshed out to any degree on a cinematic level is frustrating to the grounds-roots fans who eat, breath and drink this stuff. For the cursory fan or even the everyday Halo fan, Halo 3 probably successfully blows their doors out. For the fans who found Halo 2's complex and fascinating narrative amazing, Halo 3's story execution feels like paint by numbers.
As a joke amongst close friends, I wrote a script for Halo 3 meant to be a believable rough draft (bad spelling and cheesy lines included). It left my hands and found its way onto the internet through some tomfoolery of my crew and eventually was believed, despite the horrendous writing (my bad, Staten) to be the actual script. Although my script didn't come near to being as amazing as any of Staten's work, it did have one thing: a complex story with a complex look at the characters involved. I had one section where Keyes and the Gravemind are revealed to be one in the same, and he was brought to Delta Halo by none other than the Arbiter.
The internets were fooled and personal apologies were issued to Frank and Bungie for having to decant it (even though they were working on the real deal), I can't help but feel that they really moved quickly and recklessly over the Gravemind, Cortana's peril (was it even there?) and they pushed the Arbiter behind a glass barricade: 'Yes, you can see him, he's awesome, but we're listening to the assholes who don't like him this time around. Arbiter, sit down.'
(Yeah, and I'm not trying to peddle the script up there, trust me. I deleted it off my hard drive a long time ago and had to physically look on the web to find it (where it still exists at alarmingly high numbers even though the very different game has been released months ago). When you read it - if you do, and I don't necessarily recommend it - you'll see why it took me less than a week to write it and why I laugh whenever anyone actually 'buys' that its the real deal.)
For what it's worth, the guys at Ascendant Justice and I were talking about the Legendary ending and the music (which I agree, it also pissed me off). I won't purchase another game with the Chief and/or Coranta as the main protagonists. I just won't do it. The hushed casket ending was perfect (despite the weird aggro Chief comment to Cortana bit) and I'd rather not know if they ever were rescued. Let the Chief's story end there.
I would consider any of the below ideas however, and here's an excerpt of one of my last comments about the terminal ending and its significance from the GameTap interview:
Interesting that you say it was the Marathon icon because I do see a little bit of that there. I also see a little bit of this symbol, the Forerunner symbol from the ARG and the terminals themselves.
I think it's obvious that the 'next game,' whatever it is (not necessarily the Jackson project, although possibly), it will involve the Forerunners heavily. I'll be seriously disappointed if it has the Chief, or any game for that matter, as the primary protagonist. I liked the hushed casket ending and thought it brought closure to his character. If they open the casket again, I won't be buying that game. I'd rent it, sure, but it won't be a buy. I'm not going to financially back them running Chief and the story around him into the ground.
I will entertain anything else, particularly anything involving the Forerunner, the Covenant or the Sangheili. I think those three strands are the best options they have for forwarding the Halo franchise without obliterating the beauty and sanctity that the trilogy has offered. Having played Halo 1 recently and switching back and forth between Halo 3, I can definitely see the advantages and disadvantages between the two from a gamer's perspective.
The Arbiter
For example, I'd like to see a game where the Arbiter, Rtas Vadumee and their crew return to Sanghelios to find that their entire government has been sieged by Covenant loyalists and they have to retake their planet back from 'wayward' Elites. Not only would we be able to battle against Elites once more, but it could further the story of the Arbiter and really play well in the vacuum of the Covenant, particularly if the Jiralhanae are somehow involved and a trip to their bitter and violent homeworld is in the works. It would make for an exciting story due to the emotionally fertile ground Halo 2 created.
The Flood
I also think a story about a UNSC battalion which crash lands on one of the remaining Halo rings and a lone Marine has to survive when his entire squad unwittingly lets the Flood out. The beginning of the game has you moving through the forest, fighting of some of the installation's 'natural predators' and then you're inserted into a situation much like Halo: Combat Evolved's 343 Guilty Spark level, fighting through a boggy swamp and into several containment facilities. They could further the story of the Flood, the Gravemind and the Forerunners, making the Flood really interesting, scary and fun to fight. I could imagine this playing really well, much like the acclaimed Resident Evil 4.
The Forerunner
After reading the terminals, a story about Didact and Librarian could also be really good fodder for gamers, even if it was RPG-based, similar in style and execution to what we believe will be a successful Mass Effect title. Third-person shooter elements, mixed with character enhancement, centered on the full-scale revelation of the Forerunners, their own personal battles and the story of the Flood's emergence. It would seem that the Forerunners live significantly longer than humans, possibly hundreds upon hundreds of years. This could really play well if they ended it with the firing of the Array, as described in the terminals.
The Fall of Reach or Halo Universe
I've talked about it more than once, hell, I wrote a short series on it, but a tale about the Spartan-II's battles on Reach would be awesome. In fact, a story following their initial campaigns, but not around the Spartans which were covered in the games or novels - these would be a whole new crew, possibly a squad-based tactical shooter but with more free-form attributes that play well like Halo. I'd even be interested in seeing a MMOFPS, like Huxley, but executed in the Halo universe, with a variety of species to select and individual attributes for each. Such a game would be an instant success and highly-touted for Xbox Live. I wouldn't be surprised if the next big Xbox launch title (for whatever system they're cooking up now) would be a online-enabled game - something which really centers around fighting large-scale combat in open areas. Now if they could only integrate RTS commander-fielded combat, with RPG-centric attribute and material farming and FPS-grounds-roots combat - they'd have the biggest game ever. Won't happen this generation, but I fully expect it to in the next.
There's lots of healthy meat here for future 'Halo' games, I don't want another one with Spartan-117 or Cortana. Their story was great, it was told and it was incredibly awesome.
Well then the answer to the question isn't 'AR starts,' but rather not to play with noobs.Frenck said:
Haha! The BR-starts saved Halo 2 for me. The BR-starts in Halo 3 are even better.godhandiscen said:
I personally don't care how matchmaking is played. When I do play online, I like to play with and against my friends.
This is the problem. Many people can't seperate the character's story from introduction. He did have an awesome intro and last level, though. And I was a big fan of Quarantine Zone.Instigator said:
It was a bit useless in the end, other than reminding you "Hey, you gotta go save Cortana." Overall though, it didn't bother me too much.Instigator said:
It would have been cool to learn about the Flood and Forerunner in H3 like we did the Covenant in H2. Gravemind is pretty obviously a manipulator throughout the story, but other than that we learn disappointingly little about him.Instigator said:
siamesedreamer
Banned
Even though I love the AR, I could live with BR starts on Valhalla and Sandtrap.
Not sure if they would want to divide up the game like that though.
Not sure if they would want to divide up the game like that though.
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