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SF Republicans cancel their planned straw poll

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G

Gaborn

Member
Alright, I realize there is already a Ron Paul thread, but this goes beyond Ron Paul and is a very different issue, it's an issue with fundamental fairness, and with giving candidates supporters the same treatment. it's also an issue with not canceling a straw poll because your candidate will probably lose.

First, a little background:
The San Francisco Straw Poll was canceled tonight because there were too many Ron Paul supports. I arrived at 7:00 for dinner, speeches by representatives of each candidate and then a straw poll.

(video below the fold)

Unfortunately, at around 9:45pm when the straw poll was about to take place, Gail Neira of the SF Republican Alliance, announced that she was cancelling the straw poll because it was unfair. She was referring to the approximately 40 Ron Paul supports that were standing in the back of the room with Ron Paul signs. She went on to say that she was overwhelmed by the number of Ron Paul supports that showed up, but by that time the crowd was in an uproar.

I was outraged and so was everyone else. It was very difficult to hold back the emotions and remain calm. I can only imagine what will happen in the primaries, when too many Ron Paul supporters show up. Will they just cancel the elections?

To be accurate, the dinner was $33 and Gail allowed people who didn’t want to eat or couldn’t make it in time for dinner to pay $5 to participate in the straw poll later in the evening. This wasn’t really the issue, since most of the people that showed up would have paid the $33 and said so, when she used money as an excuse.

The event was caught on film and there will be a YouTube video soon. It’s great to be a part of the Ron Paul R[EVOL]UTION.
Click to expand...

Story here

video here for the lazy
More video for the lazy

So I guess I'm asking, am I ridiculous for being outraged? Am I so wrapped up in rooting for Paul that I've lost my objectivity and this had NOTHING to do with him or his supporters being shunned by the party leadership? Is this appropriate behavior for a political party?
 
G

grandjedi6

Master of the Google Search
JodyAnthony said:
What is a straw poll?
Click to expand...

Its where have the voters vote for the candidates they want to win the primary, that way they can judge the public opinion. Its like a practice vote
 
G

Gaborn

Member
JodyAnthony said:
What is a straw poll?
Click to expand...

A non binding vote by members of a political party to get the mood of a particular city or county. Basically it's a political thermometer to see which candidate is most popular in an area. You have to be a party member to vote and usually there's a small fee involved to at least cover expenses.
 
D

Dyno

Member
JodyAnthony said:
What is a straw poll?
Click to expand...

It's a political rally. People come to eat and then vote on their favourite candidate. Very often the price of admission is paid by the candidates themselves, essentially fixing or locking in the vote.

They are popularity contests, grist for the daily news cycle, and have no real merit whatsoever.
 
G

Gaborn

Member
Dyno said:
It's a political rally. People come to eat and then vote on their favourite candidate. Very often the price of admission is paid by the candidates themselves, essentially fixing or locking in the vote.

They are popularity contests, grist for the daily news cycle, and have no real merit whatsoever.
Click to expand...

So why bother canceling it?
 
C

Cheebs

Member
To be fair ron paul supporters made up faaaar more of a percentage of voters at that straw poll that they will in the primary.

A safe range for Paul's primary national % will be likely 3% on the low end and 8% on the high end.
 
G

Gaborn

Member
Cheebs said:
To be fair ron paul supporters made up faaaar more of a percentage of voters at that straw poll that they will in the primary.

A safe range for Paul's primary national % will be likely 3% on the low end and 8% on the high end.
Click to expand...

You might or might not be right. However, in addition to accurate support, such straw polls measure enthusiasm. I think that most people feel that whatever Paul's actual support level, his supporters are generally rather enthusiastic, and thus have a higher likelihood of showing up than a more tepid fan of another candidate.
 
P

Pristine_Condition

Member
I can only imagine what will happen in the primaries, when too many Ron Paul supporters show up. Will they just cancel the elections?
Click to expand...

Bwaaaaaahhhaahahahahahaha! :lol

[catches breath]

Bwaaaaaahahahahahahahahahaha! :lol

Seriously, these Ron Paul diehards are already diving deep into the world of Tin Foil Haberdashery.

Too many Ron Paul supporters? Oh, brother.


Gaborn said:
So I guess I'm asking, am I ridiculous for being outraged?
Click to expand...

For being outraged? Yeah. Pretty much.

For being a Ron Paul supporter who thinks there is even the tiniest amount of merit to Ron Paul's minions' claims that he is anything but a 4-5% fringe candidate? Perhaps.



Gaborn said:
Am I so wrapped up in rooting for Paul that I've lost my objectivity and this had NOTHING to do with him or his supporters being shunned by the party leadership? Is this appropriate behavior for a political party?
Click to expand...

It is totally appropriate.

Party-run straw polls have a serious purpose.

The poll is not about a fringe candidate mobilizing his troops to show that he has support. That's just a dog-and-pony show for Paul's faithful.

It's not even really about showing who the front runners are. It's more about creating a dialog through which you ultimately hope to bring the party back together to get the major candidate's supporters all on board to support the party's final candidate after he is selected in the primary. You ruin the poll by over-representing a fringe candidate.

Paul's supporters, much like Dennis Kucinich's supporters in the Democrat race last time around, don't understand this purpose, but that doesn't prove some conspiracy against the candidate. (And actually, Kucinich was a much more of a real player in the Democrat race than Ron Paul will ever be in the Republican race.)

But hey, even though I clearly don't support Paul, do what you want. Support your guy. It's your Constitutional right to do that, and ultimately, it's good that you are feeling involved/invested in the political process, even if you do see something that isn't there in the Straw Poll process. It's the American way, and even if I don't agree with your candidate of choice, motivation or your perspective, I cherish and support your right to participate in the process.
 
E

Enron

Banned
lol.

Fuck Ron Paul, and fuck all of his asshat supporters who fucking slow traffic to a crawl EVERY FUCKING SATURDAY on Moreland Ave while they hold up signs in front of Freedom Park.

And for all the goddamned stickers i see everywhere.
 
Dr. Kitty Muffins

Dr. Kitty Muffins

Member
JodyAnthony said:
What is a straw poll?
Click to expand...


Its a poll in which every candidate can pay alot of people to show up and its perfectly legal. They bus them in anyway they can and then brag if they win in a fixed poll. Every single candidate does it, its out in the open, the media knows, yet everyone still acts like they are a big deal becuase it makes for news during the slow part of the election season.
 
C

Cheebs

Member
To the many people in this thread getting annoyed with rabid Paul supporters just remember.

Its all over in less than a month. After that no one will talk about Ron Paul again, unless they live in the 16th District in Texas.
 
D

Dali

Member
Dr. Kitty Muffins said:
Its a poll in which every candidate can pay alot of people to show up and its perfectly legal. They bus them in anyway they can and then brag if they win in a fixed poll. Every single candidate does it, its out in the open, the media knows, yet everyone still acts like they are a big deal becuase it makes for news during the slow part of the election season.
Click to expand...

So basically the name itself hints at its true legitimacy.
 
A

APF

Member
You mean a non-scientific poll was made even less useful than it could have been due to Ron Paul spamming? Say it isn't so!
 
G

Gaborn

Member
APF said:
You mean a non-scientific poll was made even less useful than it could have been due to Ron Paul spamming? Say it isn't so!
Click to expand...

Actually, Ron Paul's supporters aren't the people that spam polls
Romney got 893 votes, besting second-place Ron Paul's 534 -- despite Paul's shuttling in supporters on a rented trolley and shuttle. The campaign had a plane sporting pro-Paul slogans and a boat touting him, too.

In fact, Paul supporters dominated the crowd, which reached an estimated 1,000 people. Tickets for votes cost $20 each.

So how did Romney do it?

"I voted 20 times," Derek Gyongzois, 38, of St. Petersburg exclaimed after casting ballots.

He said he works as a volunteer for the Romney campaign (and begged a reporter not to print his 20-vote tally). Did he buy the tickets?

"I don't have that kind of money," Gyongzois said.
Click to expand...
 
G

Gaborn

Member
APF said:
Actually that article does say Paul's supporters were "rigging" the poll.
Click to expand...

What it says is that Paul supporters started doing what Romney's supporters did from the beginning. Showing up and casting ballots is NOT "rigging" a poll, it's voter participation. Voting 20 times from the get go indicates an agenda.
 
A

APF

Member
Gaborn said:
What it says is that Paul supporters started doing what Romney's supporters did from the beginning.
Click to expand...
Actually you're reading *far* too much into that article than it's actually saying.
 
T

Triumph

Banned
Gaborn, here's a protip- there are far, far fewer people who support Ron Paul than you think. Strip away the people who are just there because "omg he's against teh WARZ!" and you have the usual gang of Libertopians... aka maybe about 1% of the population.

But by all means, keep on keeping on. In two years I will be enjoying socialized medicine that you and your ilk will be financing for me. Gracias!
 
G

Gaborn

Member
Triumph said:
Gaborn, here's a protip- there are far, far fewer people who support Ron Paul than you think. Strip away the people who are just there because "omg he's against teh WARZ!" and you have the usual gang of Libertopians... aka maybe about 1% of the population.
Click to expand...

You may or may not be right. As I said, I don't think straw polls are measuring a completely accurate view of voter support, they were never intended to. I think they're measuring voter enthusiasm. Remember, it doesn't matter if Giuliani or Romney or Hillary or Obama or any particular candidate has 10 supporters or 10,000. What matters is the candidates who have supporters willing to go out on a cold New Hampshire (or pick your state) morning, possibly in driving rain or snow and actually cast a vote for their candidate. Ok, so you think Ron Paul doesn't have a lot of support, that's fine. What I think is fairly obvious though is he has some of the most energized supporters out there, and THAT helps turn out.
 
T

Triumph

Banned
Gaborn said:
You may or may not be right. As I said, I don't think straw polls are measuring a completely accurate view of voter support, they were never intended to. I think they're measuring voter enthusiasm. Remember, it doesn't matter if Giuliani or Romney or Hillary or Obama or any particular candidate has 10 supporters or 10,000. What matters is the candidates who have supporters willing to go out on a cold New Hampshire (or pick your state) morning, possibly in driving rain or snow and actually cast a vote for their candidate. Ok, so you think Ron Paul doesn't have a lot of support, that's fine. What I think is fairly obvious though is he has some of the most energized supporters out there, and THAT helps turn out.
Click to expand...
Oh no, I'm right. Because when people go out to vote during primaries, they're going to vote for the person they think is best suited to be the next President based on their values. And since most people don't have the asinine idea that going back to the gold standard as part of their values, they're not going to vote for fucking Ron Paul.
 
G

Gaborn

Member
Triumph said:
Oh no, I'm right. Because when people go out to vote during primaries, they're going to vote for the person they think is best suited to be the next President based on their values. And since most people don't have the asinine idea that going back to the gold standard as part of their values, they're not going to vote for fucking Ron Paul.
Click to expand...

Yes, but the question is, who ARE the republicans going to vote for. I think a LOT of republican voters are going to stay home for the primaries, perhaps more than usual for an election cycle. I don't see many conservative Christians (except for Pat Robertson) turning out for Giuliani or Romney for example. I don't see people getting excited for Thompson. I see some momentum for Huckabee but he's still not getting any money (a problem Paul definitely doesn't have at the moment). I think McCain is past his prime and has been left for dead once already this campaign.

So I guess what I'm asking you is where do you see the energy on the Republican side? Who do you think is going to convince enough people to vote for them in the primaries?
 
9

909er

Member
I suppose it's understandable (but still utter BS) if this was done in any other city. But in San Francisco, Ron Paul probably is the legitimate Republican front-runner. I still remember seeing a decent number of Ron Paul ppl at the San Francisco Love Fest.

Btw, nothing says San Fran like a few thousand college kids rolling joints in plain view on the front lawn of City Hall.
 
T

teh_pwn

"Saturated fat causes heart disease as much as Brawndo is what plants crave."
Dyno said:
It's a political rally. People come to eat and then vote on their favourite candidate. Very often the price of admission is paid by the candidates themselves, essentially fixing or locking in the vote.

They are popularity contests, grist for the daily news cycle, and have no real merit whatsoever.
Click to expand...

Yes, it is many times the case that the admission is paid for by a wealthy candidate, reducing the meaning of the poll.

However, Paul is not Mitt Romney. Ron Paul supporters buy their own tickets, make their own signs, and have a really high turnout. Overall, Paul has dominated the straw polls -- it isn't some isolated incident.
 
T

teh_pwn

"Saturated fat causes heart disease as much as Brawndo is what plants crave."
Triumph said:
Gaborn, here's a protip- there are far, far fewer people who support Ron Paul than you think. Strip away the people who are just there because "omg he's against teh WARZ!" and you have the usual gang of Libertopians... aka maybe about 1% of the population.
Click to expand...

That's month old data. Paul is polling about 5-7% nationally, and he's about to break 10% in New Hampshire. He's been rising steadily. In a state like New Hampshire with an open primary, Paul only needs about 10% among likely Republican voters. NH is dominated by independents, and Ron Paul signs are everywhere in that state.

Sources:

National:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/postpoll_120407.html
http://www.pollingreport.com/wh08rep.htm
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub...ial_election/daily_presidential_tracking_poll

New Hampshire:
http://www.transworldnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?id=29678&cat=15

But I believe you're the guy that keeps posting hasty generalizations and nonsense about Paul and Libertarianism. For example, you'll say something around the lines that Libertarians don't care if consumer products for babies have lead or something in it, when a real Libertarian would stick the the constitution's right to life. But whatever.
 
Squirrel Killer

Squirrel Killer

Member
Gaborn said:
So I guess I'm asking, am I ridiculous for being outraged? Am I so wrapped up in rooting for Paul that I've lost my objectivity and this had NOTHING to do with him or his supporters being shunned by the party leadership? Is this appropriate behavior for a political party?
Click to expand...
I was recently asked to be a temporary chair for my precinct's caucus (which most likely means I'll end up as the chair whether I want it or not.) After I agreed, the party worker asked me who I was supporting, and I said Ron Paul. The worker and I went on to have a pleasant 5 minute conversation, and, to date, I haven't been kicked out as temp chair.

Also, straw polls, as run these days, are fundraisers. Plain and simple. That they get any media play is a complete joke. Campaigns are almost expected to cheat. About the only useful function they serve is to let struggling candidates realize how big a hole they're in (i.e. Tommy Thompson).
 
G

Gaborn

Member
Squirrel Killer said:
I was recently asked to be a temporary chair for my precinct's caucus (which most likely means I'll end up as the chair whether I want it or not.) After I agreed, the party worker asked me who I was supporting, and I said Ron Paul. The worker and I went on to have a pleasant 5 minute conversation, and, to date, I haven't been kicked out as temp chair.

Also, straw polls, as run these days, are fundraisers. Plain and simple. That they get any media play is a complete joke. Campaigns are almost expected to cheat. About the only useful function they serve is to let struggling candidates realize how big a hole they're in (i.e. Tommy Thompson).
Click to expand...

oh I agree that they're fundraisers. I just don't understand, if everyone is so convinced it doesn't matter why they would cancel the straw poll suddenly because there were what they perceived to be a disproportionate number of Ron Paul supporters. It just seems like some people (not you in particular obviously) want to say "well it doesn't matter, and if it did matter Ron Paul still has no chance anyway so it doesn't matter" which is sort of circular.

I mean, whether it "matters" or not is sort of irrelevant. It "mattered" enough to the Republican Party of San Francisco to hold it, and it mattered enough for them to cancel it when a bunch of Ron Paul supporters (who had paid the proper fees to be there) came in at the appropriate time (after the dinner) so they could vote for their candidate.
 
T

Triumph

Banned
Gaborn said:
Yes, but the question is, who ARE the republicans going to vote for. I think a LOT of republican voters are going to stay home for the primaries, perhaps more than usual for an election cycle. I don't see many conservative Christians (except for Pat Robertson) turning out for Giuliani or Romney for example. I don't see people getting excited for Thompson. I see some momentum for Huckabee but he's still not getting any money (a problem Paul definitely doesn't have at the moment). I think McCain is past his prime and has been left for dead once already this campaign.

So I guess what I'm asking you is where do you see the energy on the Republican side? Who do you think is going to convince enough people to vote for them in the primaries?
Click to expand...
Oh boy, "energy". Yay, people are REALLY EXCITED to support Ron Paul. You know what? The people who are REALLY EXCITED to support Ron Paul are probably about 95% of his supporters. The people who are likewise NOT VERY ENTHUSED BUT WILL DRAG THEIR ASS OUT TO VOTE ANYHOW about supporting Romney and Rudy are probably about 95% of their supporters.

And teh_pwn, great. That's awesome that Ron Paul's numbers are going up. I wonder what those Johnny Come Lately's who are supporting Paul for his opposition to the war and OMG TEH CONSTITOOOOSHUN!!!1!11 will say once they realize that they're supporting a loon that wants to revert back to the gold standard.

Libertarians, guess what? There's a reason you've never won a major election of any note, and it's because most people have no interest in your policies. Hell, 3/5 of America wants govt. run health care. So by the middle of February when Paul hasn't won a primary or caucus and the nominee (whether it's Rudy, Romney or Huckabee- my money is on Romney personally) has been decided, you guys can go back to getting just enough people to sign petitions to continually get your nominee on the ballot every four years to get maybe 1% of the national vote, which is what you guys are- fringe. And in 2 more years, I'll be enjoying my socialized medicine. We can all have what we want! Great, isn't it?
 
I

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
APF said:
Actually that article does say Paul's supporters were spamming the poll.
Click to expand...

Just not as well as the other guy's. Not only are they fundamentally dishonest, they're not even good at stuffing the ballot.
 
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