unbias said:

I think a lot of it is the nature of the internet. I rarely run into or have met people(outside of when I was in college, perhaps) as extreme from one side of the argument to the other as I have on the internet. On the internet you seem to either run into staunch crusaders for social reform who seem to have the perfect answer for everything or the people who seem to want to stem the tide of social reform at any cost. I'll be the 1st to admit, I always wonder how "real" 99% of the people on the internet are.

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Steve Youngblood said:

And the quoted post that was called stupid of the post I quoted suggested changing the color to differentiate from Pac-Man.

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sploatee said:

Yup. As a gay woman can I just say I'd be more concerned about my Ms Pacman score than the politics of what she was wearing.

Edit: actually I'm not sure whether my point agrees with you or not. My point is that it's Ms Pacman. Ms Pacman! If the LGBT gangs take away my Ms Pacman, I renounce my membership of the gangs. Even if we can, you know, take down the government, create sinister agendas and what not.

In answer to the original discussion, I think there is generally a lot of self-righteousness on both sides of the journalistic spectrum. It happens in other areas, not just games. I've seen blind, maniacal anti-discussion attitudes in groups that would stereotypically be associated with tree-hugging and then you have the worst extremes of Fox News. Because games media is so internet-heavy, it becomes an echo chamber and these attitudes multiply and get maginified and become memes of a sort. It's all bonkers, if you ask me. It's healthy to have this kind of social criticism applied to games and I think it will help open them up to more creative participation and newer ideas. But it should also not obscure the fact that if a game is good, it's good. And Ms Pacman is good. Apparently, Dragon's Crown is, too.

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mullet2000 said:

Because pink is associated as a feminine thing and they want to convey that it's a feminine character with very limited resources to do so.

It's really as simple as that. Not saying it's ideal, but if she was say, green, people would be saying "Huh, what's 'Ms.' about that?" Keep in mind this is the 80s we're talking about as well. Pink is the most easily understood way to convey that...so she's pink.

I realize this is a very basic answer that is in no way eye-opening, and you aren't interested in a response, but there it is.

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collige said:

Not really. The point isn't exactly that Ms Pac-Man HAS a bow and lipstick, but more that the only thing separating her from the original is that they slapped on two extremely generic gender identifiers.

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Orayn said:

Again, I don't think people are furious that secondary and tertiary gender indicators exist. They're usually just pointing out that using them necessarily introduces "politics" into a game, since those symbols are all very culturally dependent.

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Steve Youngblood said:

But what's particularly manly about a yellow circle other than that they called it Pac-Man?

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Steve Youngblood said:

I want to make it very clear right up front that I'm not heavily invested in this particular argument. But something about this paragraph struck me as kind of off the mark in that you seem to have undermined your own point, provided I'm even following the conversation in its entirety (and I may not be, it's been a long day that's not about to end anytime soon). But if it's all in the name, and Pac-Man tells us everything we need to know, doesn't the name Ms. Pac-Man already do the same? The post you're calling stupid seems perfectly valid to me.

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Steve Youngblood said:

But what's particularly manly about a yellow circle other than that they called it Pac-Man?

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David H Wong said:

One day, you'll wake up and realize YOU'RE the cancer. What an ugly, destructive, awful person you are.

PA gives millions to charity, more to a scholarship fund, and ran the most progressive game convention in the industry, banning "Booth babes" and bringing along a forum for discussion about the exact issues you care about. That stupid, blind, destructive hatred for everyone who shows even one drop of impure thoughts is what kills a movement, because it just makes the people involved look like either bitter assholes, or outright psychopaths.

You're not in it to help anyone. You just want to give yourself an excuse to bully people and feel good about it. You use good causes as an excuse to make the world worse.

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Steve Youngblood said:

But what's particularly manly about a yellow circle other than that they called it Pac-Man?

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zeldablue said:

Hmm, I was working with a bunch of game design students over the summer when the Anita game tropes thing became a topic. I was the only girl on the team, but this was the first time I had ever heard games and feminist critique put into the same sentence. The thought intrigued me...but the reaction from the boys, completely through me off.

They were really against having games critiqued from a feminist perspective. And the way they spoke was exactly how you would read the YouTube comments...if Anita had allowed for them to take place. The thoughts they had were spoken allowed just as you'd find on twitter or tumblr.

It's an awful comparison, but I'll make it anyways. Reacting to critiques of any sort with that amount of hatred is both terrifying and irrational. It's like gunning down and bombing girls in the Middle East for going to school and trying to have a voice. If you feel your way of life is threatened by giving a 5 year old girl some rights...you should at least try to rationalize that fear a bit better.

The wackos asking for games to have censorship and better representation aren't going to impact your games in any way. CoD will still be CoD and DC will still be DC. What the crazy social journalists are looking for...simply doesn't exist yet. But when the market grows, so too will the variety of games.

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zeldablue said:

Reacting to critiques of any sort with that amount of hatred is both terrifying and irrational. It's like gunning down and bombing girls in the Middle East for going to school and trying to have a voice.

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sploatee said:

It's bizarre, isn't it? It's a bit of a Clark Kent / Superman thing, I think. In real life, you are meek, polite and generally agreeable. But then you adopt anonymity and become an ultra powerhouse of unalterable Controversial Opinions which are FACT!

Overall, this kind of discussion is a good thing though. Hopefully, somewhere, somehow, to some tiny degree it'll help push diversity in gaming (as in - more types of more games by different types of people, including all of the "dudebro" type games and other much-sneered at "mainstream" games).

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zeldablue said:

Hmm, I was working with a bunch of game design students over the summer when the Anita game tropes thing became a topic. I was the only girl on the team, and this was the first time I had ever heard games and feminist critique put into the same sentence. The thought intrigued me...but the reaction from the boys, completely through me off. Since I had no opinion on feminism or any education on feminist philosophy, I simply watched the fiasco from my computer desk.

They were really against having games critiqued from a feminist perspective. And the way they spoke was exactly how you would read the YouTube comments...if Anita had allowed for them to take place. Their spoken thoughts were no different from what you'd find on twitter or tumblr.

It's an awful comparison, but I'll make it anyways. Reacting to critiques of any sort with that amount of hatred is both terrifying and irrational. It's like gunning down and bombing girls in the Middle East for going to school and trying to have a voice. If you feel your way of life is threatened by giving a 5 year old girl some rights...you should at least try to rationalize that fear a bit better.

The wackos asking for games to have censorship and better representation aren't going to impact your games in any way. CoD will still be CoD and DC will still be DC. What the crazy social journalists are looking for...simply doesn't exist yet. But when the market grows, so too will the variety of games.

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zeldablue said:

It's an awful comparison, but I'll make it anyways. Reacting to critiques of any sort with that amount of hatred is both terrifying and irrational. It's like gunning down and bombing girls in the Middle East for going to school and trying to have a voice. If you feel your way of life is threatened by giving a 5 year old girl some rights...you should at least try to rationalize that fear a bit better.
.

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The wackos asking for games to have censorship and better representation aren't going to impact your games in any way. CoD will still be CoD and DC will still be DC. What the crazy social journalists are looking for...simply doesn't exist yet. But when the market grows, so too will the variety of games

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mesmerMAN said:

but what about game censorship in australia and germany? aren't those relatable and already affecting games?

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mullet2000 said:

Nothing. Which is why I said earlier that Ms. Pac-man only has a pink bow because it became necessary (in the creator's eyes) to differentiate it from the already existing character, who was plain because it came first.

If Ms. Pac-man came first I could easily see her being the plain yellow circle and "Mr." Pac-man being the same with a blue fedora or something instead of a pink bow.

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unbias said:

Ya, discussion is good as long as it doesnt turn into crusades, then it just turns into preaching from one isle to the next, which then encourages intolerance of differing opinions. I think the diversity in games, though, will come once it stops becoming a badge of honor or contention to have said diversity in games. Diversity is needed in this industry, imo, but it needs to come because it wants it otherwise you get placation, and I dont think that helps anyone, other then enforcing stereotypes. I think minorities with level headedness, as you have provided, is much more helpful then any particular advice some try to give. I'll say though, I think the lack of diversity will fix itself with more of the indie push(there is much less risk aversion). The game industry has to get past its own gameplay cliche's, imo, before we can start to see social diversity in games(we barely have mechanical diversity, much less social ones).

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Morrigan Targaryen said:

Hey guys let's ignore the very salient point she made because of one arguably exaggerated comparison LOL FEMINISTS AMIRITE

-_-

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I have many gripes, but the overarching peeve I have is with the attitude of overt pride and self-righteousness that the people involved are expressing. Again, the goal is just. I can’t echo this enough. But I’m not going to pretend everything they did this year had a measurable effect. Or even most things. We managed to get rid of Pinsoff, but it was ages before Kuchera was let go, and that was not the intended goal: Penny Arcade is the monolith of malignant behaviour we’re trying to get rid of. We got rid of the trophy in God of War Ascension, but due to the controversy, Dragon’s Crown sold well over expectations, becoming a sleeper hit.

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Shinta said:

So ... you're saying it's up in the air that it was an exaggeration? Like, maybe we aren't 100% sure and should debate it?

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Steve Youngblood said:

But the crux of the criticism -- and I want to again stress that I'm not personally very invested in this particular criticism itself other that to try and elucidate that I understand it -- is that these gender differentiators are unnecessary. If male characters were underrepresented and you wanted to present a male character, you don't need to make a stereotypical male character. If it's possible to establish a gender based solely on a name, it's obviously possible to establish a character of a different gender based solely on a different name, if not minor visual distinctions just to distinguish the characters as different when viewed side by side. I honestly don't see what's so controversial about this line of argumentation, and I while I say that, I'll also make it very clear that I don't think one needs to agree that Ms. Pac-Man is even remotely sexist. I just entered the argument to counter what I thought was an unfair dismissal of a suggestion for Ms. Pac-Man's design.

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mesmerMAN said:

holy shit



but what about game censorship in australia and germany? aren't those relatable and already affecting games?

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zeldablue said:

I agree...

I think it's a bit too early to expect that sort of change from the AAA titles.

Although I think in general new games are doing more to treat females and minorities in a better light. Playable Peach, Ellie in TLoU, Lee from Walking Dead etc.

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Steve Youngblood said:

But the crux of the criticism -- and I want to again stress that I'm not personally very invested in this particular criticism itself other that to try and elucidate that I understand it -- is that these gender differentiators are unnecessary. If male characters were underrepresented and you wanted to present a male character, you don't need to make a stereotypical male character. If it's possible to establish a gender based solely on a name, it's obviously possible to establish a character of a different gender based solely on a different name, if not minor visual distinctions just to distinguish the characters as different when viewed side by side. I honestly don't see what's so controversial about this line of argumentation, and I while I say that, I'll also make it very clear that I don't think one needs to agree that Ms. Pac-Man is even remotely sexist. I just entered the argument to counter what I thought was an unfair dismissal of a suggestion for Ms. Pac-Man's design.

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Steve Youngblood said:

But the crux of the criticism -- and I want to again stress that I'm not personally very invested in this particular criticism itself other that to try and elucidate that I understand it -- is that these gender differentiators are unnecessary. If male characters were underrepresented and you wanted to present a male character, you don't need to make a stereotypical male character. If it's possible to establish a gender based solely on a name, it's obviously possible to establish a character of a different gender based solely on a different name, if not minor visual distinctions just to distinguish the characters as different when viewed side by side. I honestly don't see what's so controversial about this line of argumentation, and I while I say that, I'll also make it very clear that I don't think one needs to agree that Ms. Pac-Man is even remotely sexist. I just entered the argument to counter what I thought was an unfair dismissal of a suggestion for Ms. Pac-Man's design.

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zeldablue said:

I don't know why Germany and Australia censors so many games. I always thought it was because they really don't like guns and violence like we do.

In America we love violence, but sexualization has always been an issue with us.

I don't like censorship either. But I don't think many journalists have actually censored games.

I'm really just trying to say not to censor or attack journalists in general. By extension I suppose we should try to censor people who try to censor games? I don't know. :/

Just stay open to critique and don't try to silence unpopular opinions I guess.

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The Technomancer said:

Honestly the sexism stuff in general is primarily, for me personally, just part of a larger push to try and make people more aware and more thoughtful about the symbolism and semiotics and politics behind any art, especially one that's as "representative" (as opposed to abstract) as the majority of gaming. Its particularly handy because of areas like female character design form nice stark examples to try and discuss.

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zeldablue said:

I don't like censorship either. But I don't think many journalists have actually censored games.

I'm really just trying to say not to censor or attack journalists in general. By extension I suppose we should try to censor people who try to censor games? I don't know. :/

Just stay open to critique and don't try to silence unpopular opinions I guess.

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casabolg said:

The whole "censorship" argument has never been literal censorship, even for the case of Dragon's Crown. The term is very misused. The idea is that an audience is trying to say they don't like these elements of a game (sexualization being a big part) and trying to persuade the developers that this isn't wanted, thus stopping them from making the problem thing and focusing on what they think the audience actually wants. Journalists do astroturf a lot on things but so do the complainers on how big the problem is. Feminists and their modern rhetoric are very much unpopular nowadays.

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The Technomancer said:

Honestly the sexism stuff in general is primarily, for me personally, just part of a larger push to try and make people more aware and more thoughtful about the symbolism and semiotics and politics behind any art, especially one that's as "representative" (as opposed to abstract) as the majority of gaming. Its particularly handy because of areas like female character design form nice stark examples to try and discuss.

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Again, the goal is just. I can’t echo this enough. But I’m not going to pretend everything they did this year had a measurable effect. Or even most things. We managed to get rid of Pinsoff, but it was ages before Kuchera was let go, and that was not the intended goal: Penny Arcade is the monolith of malignant behaviour we’re trying to get rid of. We got rid of the trophy in God of War Ascension, but due to the controversy, Dragon’s Crown sold well over expectations, becoming a sleeper hit.

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Gannd said:

The social sciences aren't science. That shouldn't be a controversial statement. There is even an academic pushback against physics envy (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/01/opinion/sunday/the-social-sciences-physics-envy.html) for one such article.

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unbias said:

Problem with that is, sex is almost universally wanted... Even if people know it is bad for them to constantly be immersed in it, people like it and it helps sell copies(the most important factor). Hell even Pixar does it(obviously they are less obvious about it, but still) because it sells.

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unbias said:

Problem with that is, sex is almost universally wanted... Even if people know it is bad for them to constantly be immersed in it, people like it and it helps sell copies(the most important factor). Hell even Pixar does it(obviously they are less obvious about it, but still) because it sells.

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Shinta said:

I think the most illustrative part of the OP, and the most damning part of it, is that it shows that what you're claiming the goal is, is not what they have in mind. That's not even close to enough for them.

Read this again.


How do you quantify "awareness and thoughtfulness" into a measurable effect that would satisfy this guy? Both the people he wanted fired apologized, demonstrating increased thoughtfulness and awareness, but that wasn't enough.

You two have very different goals. This guy is looking to remove content from games through self-censorship (God of War Trophy), get people he doesn't like fired, and quickly without any delays (Pinsloff, Kuchera), and financially ruin games he doesn't like through negative PR (Dragon's Crown, his great failure).

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casabolg said:

Tell that to people trying to combat concepts like 'rape culture' and 'modesty'. I wouldn't say it's always sexuality as a whole but rather it's manifestations.

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The Technomancer said:

Honestly the sexism stuff in general is primarily, for me personally, just part of a larger push to try and make people more aware and more thoughtful about the symbolism and semiotics and politics behind any art, especially one that's as "representative" (as opposed to abstract) as the majority of gaming. Its particularly handy because of areas like female character design form nice stark examples to try and discuss.

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The Technomancer said:

I think, or perhaps hope, that what's going on with the OP is a gradual realization of just how toxic that is. I'll be curious to see what he says tomorrow

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The Technomancer said:

yeah, and this is where it gets very tricky. This is where my opinions almost certainly start to diverge from a lot of people, but I'm very wary of indulgence, especially de-contextualized indulgence. Some people do believe that it would be a step forward if the industry started featuring more contextless sexualized men as well, I'm not one of them. As a few pieces? Sure. Hell, I've defended Dead or Alive: Beach Volleyball before both because its very upfront about what it is and its also not all anyone is making. But I think we can (and often do) aspire higher then just appealing to base power or sex fantasies with our media, and I think games have a bit of catch-up to play

If there's one thing I expect to be disagreed with the most on this kind of topic its probably this.

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zeldablue said:

Attacking niche games is pretty lame. I haven't played it, and the submissive overly sexualized damsels do...worry me, but it is pretty silly to attack a small Japanese title.

If these girls are getting raped ingame, I'd probably rally beside the dude, since I know girls who have been victimized and laughed at over these types of things, and that makes me sad and a bit more sensitive towards that type of imagery.

But for crying out loud...it's rare that we get unique games from Japan and I think I would have cried if someone censored Catherine. It has a lot of odd things to say about gender roles and sexuality but it at least tries to be fitting and smart about it.

There are a lot of cultural differences too that make it tough...it's important to be fair and understanding about this grayness.

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jman2050 said:

My problem is that you want people to be "aware and more thoughtful" of these things, but to what end? If you put a person into a situation where they think about certain social issues, in the context of games or otherwise, maybe even debating with you about it, and their ultimate conclusion is "I don't see a problem, things are just fine the way they are", is it acceptable for you to just leave it at that?

Obviously the question isn't directed at YOU you, I just think that if one believes strongly in a particular ideology then they need to be sure of what their actual goals are. Are they content with just stating their case and trusting that others will see the "right" point of view or are they dead set on convincing others, or else?

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jman2050 said:

I just think that if one believes strongly in a particular ideology then they need to be sure of what their actual goals are.

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mesmerMAN said:

WHY ARE WE TRYING TO ACHIEVE SOME SORT OF MYSTICAL PEDESTAL SET BY MOVIES AND BOOKS?

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mesmerMAN said:

and this is one my main problems with that statement:

WHY ARE WE TRYING TO ACHIEVE SOME SORT OF MYSTICAL PEDESTAL SET BY MOVIES AND BOOKS?

videogames by their own nature (interactivity) already sets itself apart as a specific medium. To say "we have to do better" alludes to some idea that there SHOULDN'T be works that appeal to base natures.

why can't we have both mature stories (which we do) and stuff that appeals to base nature (which we do)?

and that is the issue i think with games "journalists". they indulge themselves in this industry, they feel they don't get the recognition as movie critics and book critics. So it comes off like they try their hardest to push an agenda in the hopes of artificially mature the medium for some bane acceptance to the fact they play videogames and that other adults wouldn't make fun of them for doing so.



i want to thank you for recognizing the cultural aspect of some of these arguments.

I've seen people here say "OMG a japanese schoolgirl! ewww bad game" when it's a common trope in japan media. A lot of western gaming critics try to come from a western mindset superiority complex and fail to take note that japanese game developers tend to work on a different mindset. So when a game creator says he makes a character sexy to sell figurines (which is a huge hobby in asian countries) it comes off as some form of gender discrimination.

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sploatee said:

Hmmmmm.

I think first of all, lots of games have always aspired towards movies. Movie visual shorthand is all over games. Not all of those movies are Citizen Kane. CoD seems to aspire towards Michael Bay movies. Not sure they are on a mystical pedestal (unless you count a dude sat on his poop throne).

I think my problem with your statement is that it's so either/or! Are we really trying to sit atop ye mystical pedestal? There are loads of games still being made that are just straight-up games, without any fancy aspirations to being the interactive equivalent of Ulysses. I think it's a good thing that there are some boffins working on games that aspire towards art. It just means there's more variety. It won't stop so-called 'low-brow' (ugh) games being made.

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mesmerMAN said:

and nobody is stopping those games from being made. but the "games are not mature like movies/books" statement has been parroted constantly in so many threads and by so many people that it loses its luster as an argument.

i think i speak for everyone when variety is definitely welcome. But the statement above makes it seem like we should only make "Citizen Kanes" and "no Michael Bays" because that's the only way we can mature the medium.

i would Appreciate more "the Last of Us" but i won't deny others their chances at CoDs or hell, even dead or alive: extreme beach volleyball.

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