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A Resurrected Caliphate is a Positive Step toward Peace

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Zapages

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I usually don't link to blogs and stuff... But this guy has a real good point if a Caliphate was resurrected it would definitely benefit the whole world minus the few extreme liberal sense he takes the message towards...

As the administration of George le Fou, readies the American public and its European allies for the coming bombing of Iran-- once again in total disregard of the Law of Unintended Consequences, a possible solution seems to have been discarded by the wayside: the reestablishment of the Caliphate.

The Caliph, or successor to Muhammad, literally meaning "Prince of the Faith" or "Defender of the Faith," had been in existence for more than a thousand years when it was abruptly put to rest, in 1924, by the Turkish political reformer, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, reacting to pressure from the victorious North American and European powers of the First World War. Since it had essentially devolved, over time, into a secularly controlled institution of the corrupt Ottoman Empire, it was hardly missed by Arab or Western leaders. Only Muslim visionaries and scholars whose voices were silenced by cynical and corrupt potentates or by agents of Western Powers, realized the importance of the Caliphate.

Muslim scholars have rued the loss of one central Islamic leader who could represent all of Islam on the world stage, much as the Christian "Prince of the Church," in Rome, has historically functioned since Gregory I, articulating its values, its weltanauschuug primarily, however, its sensibilities

The absence of a unified voice for all Muslims has resulted in the splintering of the Muslim community which then retrograded into primitive tribalism; a welcome situation for stronger powers seeking to exploit the oil wealth of the Islamic world. There was another reason why the West sought to remove the Caliphate: simply the old stratagem of divide and conquer, which is exactly the history of the Western powers vis-a-vis the Muslim world over the last century.

The mere mention of a resurgent Caliphate gets M. George la Bouche to jump out of his cowboy boots. A powerful Caliph would be a check on the ever more common unilateral action taken by my country-- with the tacit assistance of other Europeans nations and sundry US supplicant client-states hither and yon. Gone would be the under the table dealing between the oil-rich aristocracies and their Western business counterparts which have historically resulted in the impoverishment of Muslim peoples from North Africa to Indonesia.

The Caliph would be a unifier of the Muslim people who then could speak with one
voice. At the same time, the Caliph could use his office to limit or eradicate freelance terrorists, since his voice would have the force of both secular as well as religious law.

The Caliph could, also, represent the interests of the Muslim world as a permanent
member of the UN Security Council. Perhaps, this would also lead to the
enfranchisement within the world body of an African and South America permanent
seat in that, hithertofore not-too-august, world body.

Right now a Caliph could check the ambitions of the excitable new president of Iran,
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who has recently been provoking the happy-to-be-provoked
Republican administration. "Wait," you say, "The Iranians are Shi'a
and have never followed the direction of what was in fact a Sunni succession to
Muhammad, a rival to the Shi'a's line of Imams leading back to Ali Ibn Abi Tali,
whom the Shi'a furiously believe was the true successor to Muhammad.

Not being a Muslim, myself, is not for me to suggest how the Caliph should be chosen, that would be a problem for Muslims, themselves, to decide. However, I am aware of at least one branch of Islam, the Ibadi, who believe that the caliphate should be elected by all of Islam, regardless of his sect, the only important factor being that he be the most revered spiritual leader in Islam.

One argument that has been advanced by the Bushies is that the Caliphate would
end up in the hands of an Osama Bin Ladin type and would lead to a worldwide
crusade of Muslims against the Christian world. To that all I can say is "Poppycock,"
Forget the fact that it was George la Bouche that first uttered the call of a crusade against Islam.

All of this reminds me of an observation made by the eminent American pop philosopher-yogi, Y. Bera, "It's like deja vu all over again!"

Source: http://imperfectmessenger.blogspot.com/2006/01/resurrected-caliphate-is-positive-step_14.html

EDIT: another great article about the Caliphate: http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/26131
 
Chairman Yang said:
Yeah, the Caliphate obviously worked great in the past

Actually it did before nationalism was placed into the hearts and minds of the Arabs and their ill treatment from the Turks/Ottomans.

But that's just one reason... But there are several others to say the least...
 
Zapages said:
Actually it did before nationalism was placed into the hearts and minds of the Arabs and their ill treatment from the Turks/Ottomans.
And with a new Caliphate nationalism will no longer be an issue?

Zapages said:
But that's just one reason... But there are several others to say the least...
Such as...
 
Instigator said:
Would this new Caliph be Turk, Arab, Persian, Malay, Urdu or Indian?


A Council of Muslims (The Shurah) would meet... Then they would elect one leader amongst them like a Prime Minister is elected from the winning party... I guess the best strategy would be have a rotation system or something...
 
Chairman Yang said:
And with a new Caliphate nationalism will no longer be an issue?


Such as...

To end Nationalism or damper it. All Muslim nations that wish to join would 1st have to dissolve each of their borders and then redraw them based upon ethnic lines, just like how it was prior to World War I.. Then their representatives are able to come to the shurah with their problems. But everything will be like the EU in the sense that these representatives will be elected amongst the people of their region. So the person would fully be representing its own ethnicity and the danger to nationalism will be gone as many of the ethnicities right now are divided between different nations, ie. Kurds. There was no Kurd problem with the Turks before the reforms of Mustafa Kemal.

Furthermore to unify the nation, there will be no need of passports and the Caliph will try to grow sense of unification and will look out for the Muslims all across the world. ie. What's happening in the Philippines.
 
A Caliphate is the U.S and Europe's worst nightmare. This is why the U.S keeps supporting Israel and changing the leaders in the middle east whenever they want. They are trying to keep the Arab and the muslim world weak and disorganized.

Unfortunately for them this plan will eventually backfire at them and their actions will result in the appointing of the sixth and the final Caliphate. (this is according to Islamic tradition)
 
Zapages said:
To end Nationalism or damper it. All Muslim nations that wish to join would 1st have to dissolve each of their borders and then redraw them based upon ethnic lines, just like how it was prior to World War I.. Then their representatives are able to come to the shurah with their problems. But everything will be like the EU in the sense that these representatives will be elected amongst the people of their region. So the person would fully be representing its own ethnicity and the danger to nationalism will be gone as many of the ethnicities right now are divided between different nations, ie. Kurds.
In other words, if nationalism magically disappears then nationalism will no longer be a problem.

Zapages said:
There was no Kurd problem with the Turks before the reforms of Mustafa Kemal.
That's wrong (Kurds fought to liberate themselves from the Ottomans, particularly during WW1), and furthermore, they were only one group driven by nationalistic/ethnic fervour among many. The Armenians, Egyptians, Greeks...hell, offhand I can't think of a group that DIDN'T have any issues with the Ottomans.
 
Sentient6 said:
It all sounds nice but could it ever happen?

Yes first dispose all of the leaders in the Middle East and in its expanded areas:

Include: Pakistan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait, Syria, and everything single country in the Middle East with their dictators or Kings that take money for themselves and do not spend it on the people.

Oh Yeah, I forgot. Let's dispose of all the secular military generals as well... They are the reasons that Muslims in few countries are in such a horrible state that they are in right now.
 
Chairman Yang said:
In other words, if nationalism magically disappears then nationalism will no longer be a problem.


That's wrong (Kurds fought to liberate themselves from the Ottomans, particularly during WW1), and furthermore, they were only one group driven by nationalistic/ethnic fervour among many. The Armenians, Egyptians, Greeks...hell, offhand I can't think of a group that DIDN'T have any issues with the Ottomans.


Nationalism will not disappear, but the rational or the problem surrounding the Muslim world with broken up ethnicities that divided amongst different nations. Is the cause of the nationalistic fever amongst the different ethnicities.

Actually
1) Armenian situation is a mess... We all know what happened there.
2) Egyptians - Arab Revolt anyone with the help of the British who planted nationalism in the arab world.
3) Greeks and Turks/Ottomans have been rivals for centuries my friend.


Under the Ottomans Kurds, Turks, and anyone else was under one identity, which was that they were Muslims. This identity was changed when Mustafa Kemal said that everyone in Turkey is a Turk and you have speak Turkish. This kind of saying will cause resentment to anyone, thus you have your current Kurdish situation with Turkey.
 
Hey, Zapages, do you happen to visit the forum www.turania.com?

They don't seem to care about religion all that much, prefering to unite their Turkish/turanian cousins, real or imagined, into the great Turan nation.
 
Instigator said:
Hey, Zapages, do you happen to visit the forum www.turania.com?

They don't seem to care about religion all that much, prefering to unite their Turkish/turanian cousins, real or imagined, into the great Turan nation.


Never been there. But I know about their ethnicities being similar. If these Muslims Nations United... They would be able to achieve this and have equal representation in the Shurah. Later on get the region in China, that never wanted to be part of China become united with this nation and have equal representation.
 
Sentient6 said:
And what would that take short of violence and outside 'help'?


If something occurs that unites them all against a tyrannical force. Then they will have cause, and for how long can a group of people tolerate it... I have no clue... But people can't stand tyranny just like how we, American revolted against the British... If there is cause and a will there will always will be a way to achieve it.
 
Zapages said:
Nationalism will not disappear, but the rational or the problem surrounding the Muslim world with broken up ethnicities that divided amongst different nations. Is the cause of the nationalistic fever amongst the different ethnicities.
Yeah, I agree that many countries would be better off with geographically/politically divided ethnicities. But why would you need a Caliphate for that? Besides solutions like panarchy (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=226182), large population shifts have occurred throughout the 20th century and promoted peace in the process. Look at Europe after WW2, for example.

Zapages said:
Actually
1) Armenian situation is a mess... We all know what happened there.
2) Egyptians - Arab Revolt anyone with the help of the British who planted nationalism in the arab world.
3) Greeks and Turks/Ottomans have been rivals for centuries my friend.
Hmm...so you're agreeing with me? :) Restive nationalist/ethnic populations have been just as much of a problem under Caliphates as any other system.

Zapages said:
Under the Ottomans Kurds, Turks, and anyone else was under one identity, which was that they were Muslims. This identity was changed when Mustafa Kemal said that everyone in Turkey is a Turk and you have speak Turkish. This kind of saying will cause resentment to anyone, thus you have your current Kurdish situation with Turkey.
See above. Besides Islam's failure to prevent nationalism, it can also cause further division on its own--hence the whole Sunni/Shia thing. Even beyond the big two groups, there have been further divisions within Islam. You have Sufism, Wahhabism, Ahmadiyyas, the differing schools, people who want to be really strict vs. those who don't, etc.
 
Actually, zapages, the point I was trying to get at is that, whether religious or racial, there seems to be a yearning to build, somehow, a greater nation than Turkey is right now. I got it from those Turania folks, and I got it from you.
 
Chairman Yang said:
Yeah, I agree that many countries would be better off with geographically/politically divided ethnicities. But why would you need a Caliphate for that? Besides solutions like panarchy (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=226182), large population shifts have occurred throughout the 20th century and promoted peace in the process. Look at Europe after WW2, for example.


Hmm...so you're agreeing with me? :) Restive nationalist/ethnic populations have been just as much of a problem under Caliphates as any other system.


See above. Besides Islam's failure to prevent nationalism, it can also cause further division on its own--hence the whole Sunni/Shia thing. Even beyond the big two groups, there have been further divisions within Islam. You have Sufism, Wahhabism, Ahmadiyyas, the differing schools, people who want to be really strict vs. those who don't, etc.


1st quote:
The Caliphate will unite the Muslims, look after all Muslims and their problems all around the world, and in issues of terrorism he would be a great asset against it... They will still be independent nations, but with powers of EU.

2nd: quote:
Sorry for the confusion. That was the problem of the Sultan of the Ottomans. Caliphate is not exactly a ruler or leader of the whole nation. He is the leader of the Muslims... His ruling with the Shurah dictates everything in a normal Muslim world. Basically a religious leader with a political sayings ie. on Israel, treaties with other nations, and whats right and wrong.

3rd quote: It does not matter if they come from different schools of thought. They are all Sunnis, minus Ammadiyyas as I don't think some Muslim don't consider them Muslims*I am not too sure on that that and don't quote me either on that*...

The schools are not much different from each other with things different hear and there in the span of many hundreds of years... But the core is still there.
 
Instigator said:
Actually, zapages, the point I was trying to get at is that, whether religious or racial, there seems to be a yearning to build, somehow, a greater nation than Turkey is right now. I got it from those Turania folks, and I got it from you.

Oh I see your point now... This generation of Muslims are like this.. We, Muslims are sick and tired of seeing the people not get educated, killed, create greater division amongst us based upon borders created by the western powers. While the few and the corrupt are taking everything for themselves... The Western Powers are supporting them as well as it benefits them as they are weak, which castle007 pointed perfectly...

I mean US is in Iraq right now and is stating that there is tensions between Shia and Sunni... But the presence of them being there causes this and furthers the discourse there.... If the Western powers stop intervining there and let the people there decide without any powers around there... Let it be. Iraq was never an one unified nation... It was drawn up the Allies after the end of WWI... Let them divide Iraq... Actually much of Iraq was just called Baghdad as funny as it sounds.

I mean this youth movement amongst the Muslims will take years, decades to achieve... But there is hope and will so that all it is needed to achieve it.
 
I think the only advantage would be that all Muslims would be united under one leadership so it could reduce infighting and support for random vigilante movements. However, the Muslim world is extremely divided so even if there was a Caliphate it wouldn't stop infighting or extremism. Besides, the west would probably not be too happy if all Muslim nations came together under one umbrella.
 
Those calling for a Caliphate are fools. They didn't work in the past and certainly won't work in the modern world. A world that can only move forward once tribalism is destroyed.

Lets not also forget that such a thing would inherently require some form of genocide between Muslims of different sects, who have never been truly tolerant of one another.
 
Ahahahahahahaha.

HAY GUYZ I'm not a Muzlim or anything but I've got a AWESOME idea!

What if we made a Caliphate? Bcuz it would be EXACTLY like the Pope! Because the Pope speaks for all Christians and has never been the focal point of culture clashes and religious wars!

Yesssss I solved it world saved.
 
Caliphate and all those ideas of worldwide takeover, as german "bildung" or else are impossible.

Caliphates were impossible to sustain on Middle Ages, nowadays you've got to be kidding me.
 
Okay that guy seriously needs a history lesson.

A) The Caliphate was not abolished to "please" victorious European powers. The Caliphate was abolished because the Caliph who was also the Ottoman sultan was a traitorous son of a bitch who was in league with the European powers, Britain in particular. He was really to sell his entire people into colonial slavery so long the British didn't touch him or his position.

B) The Caliphate has never really worked well after the initial few caliphs. Hell the position of caliph was determined by real world secular power. Selim the Grim demanded the "position" after he kicked enough Mameluke ass to last for centuries, since now he obviously was the most powerful Muslim alive. So while already on shaky ground, the position of the caliph became a complete joke in the 16th century with the transfer of religious authority from Mameluke Turkish Egypt to Ottoman Turkish Asia Minor.





Zapages said:
Actually
1) Armenian situation is a mess... We all know what happened there.
2) Egyptians - Arab Revolt anyone with the help of the British who planted nationalism in the arab world.
3) Greeks and Turks/Ottomans have been rivals for centuries my friend.


4)Under the Ottomans Kurds, Turks, and anyone else was under one identity, which was that they were Muslims. This identity was changed when Mustafa Kemal said that everyone in Turkey is a Turk and you have speak Turkish. This kind of saying will cause resentment to anyone, thus you have your current Kurdish situation with Turkey.


1.) I'll ignore this in order to avoid derailment of this thread.

2.) Wrong. The British sponsored Arab revolt happened during WW1, and the traitorous Arabs were from today's Saudi Arabia. Don't smear Egypt's good name, they actually fought for independence after Napoleon's little Egyptian adventure under ethnic Albanian leader Muhammad Ali. It lasted until the British invaded anyway.

3.) Uh Greeks and Turks were never rivals until the 20th century. Until then the Greeks were just one nation among many under Ottoman rule.

4.) Turk in modern Turkey is no different than Ottoman in centuries past or American in the US. The term Turk is not based on race, it's just a common term for the inhabitants of Asia Minor.
There is no racial theme behind it because there very few ethnic Turks in Turkey in the first place. The entire population consists of Islamicized and Turkified(as in adopted the Turkish language): Kurds, Arabs,Turcomans, Tatars, Greeks, Armenians, Gerogians, Chechnyans, Circassians, Romas and Sintis and descendants of ancient inhabitants of Asia minor all the way back to the Lydians, Phrygians and Hittites. "Real" Turks as in Seljuk invaders are in the extreme minority of maybe 1 to 2 %.

Chairman Yang said:
That's wrong (Kurds fought to liberate themselves from the Ottomans, particularly during WW1), and furthermore, they were only one group driven by nationalistic/ethnic fervour among many. The Armenians, Egyptians, Greeks...hell, offhand I can't think of a group that DIDN'T have any issues with the Ottomans.

Actually the minorities had in the empire had no more problems with Ottoman rule than any other nation has problems with foreign Imperial rule. The only difference being that Ottoman rule was weak, whereas the European powers put their boots up your ass when you tried to start shit.
 
Wait wait wait.

Isn't the election of the caliph the sole reason the Sunni and Shi'a Muslims originally split in the eighth century? Didn't the Shi'a side with Ali and the Sunni's were for elections?

Admittedly, I don't know any Islamic history between then and modern times, but wouldn't the selection of a new caliphate cause similar problems between the different Islamic sects?
 
a resurrected caliphate has already happened:

http://alislam.org/

Ahmadi's believe the Messiah has already come, that the Messiah is the second coming of Jesus and a subordinate of Prophet Mohammad.

There have been 5 caliphs since the founder's death and they are celebrating the hundred years this year in 2008.
 
Azih said:
Yes. Yes.


Nothing wrong here, this would play perfectly well into the Prophecy.

Al Mahdi vs Al Dajjal ( Anti-Christ)
The initial followers of Ad-Dajjal are Persian, remember this. Majority of persian on earth are Shia. Remember, ( Al Mahdi ) The Guided one will resist Dajjal until Isa ( jesus ) Peace be Upon him, returns.

Saddaq Al-Rasul, peace be upon him.
 
:lol :lol

Never going to happen, not even if it was reformed into a totally religious and non-political office like the Pope, I don't see the point of people talking about the effects of an event that will never happen.
 
GenericPseudonym said:
:lol :lol

Never going to happen, not even if it was reformed into a totally religious and non-political office like the Pope, I don't see the point of people talking about the effects of an event that will never happen.


You should know that a caliphate is not like a pope. He doesn't forgive sins etc.

He is just a man, only a man.
 
AmMortal said:
Nothing wrong here, this would play perfectly well into the Prophecy.

Al Mahdi vs Al Dajjal ( Anti-Christ)
The initial followers of Ad-Dajjal are Persian, remember this. Majority of persian on earth are Shia. Remember, ( Al Mahdi ) The Guided one will resist Dajjal until Isa ( jesus ) Peace be Upon him, returns.

Saddaq Al-Rasul, peace be upon him.

Are you seriously bringing this into a shia-sunni argument?

And a caliphate is a terrible idea.
 
GSG Flash said:
Are you seriously bringing this into a shia-sunni argument?

And a caliphate is a terrible idea.

A terribly good idea, that will inevitably come to pass, looking at the world wide muslim problems. It's only a matter of time.
 
History has shown us time and time again that concentrating power in the hands of the few is the way to go to establish peace, unity, and world happiness. I support this idea. While we're at it, we should appoint a Caeser for the US too. What could go wrong?
 
Nerevar said:
History has shown us time and time again that concentrating power in the hands of the few is the way to go to establish peace, unity, and world happiness. I support this idea. While we're at it, we should appoint a Caeser for the US too. What could go wrong?



Then how is a prime minister(Parliament) , president (House of Rep/Senate) or even the Pope different than Caliph and the Shurrah.
 
Zapages said:
Then how is a prime minister(Parliament) , president (House of Rep/Senate) or even the Pope different than Caliph and the Shurrah.

are you serious? Because every "Caliph" (excepting the first and second who was, ironically, assassinated by political enemies) has been a hereditary monarch. You're seriously suggesting that uniting all of the middle east (which can't even stay stable in the many fractured countries that do exist) under a single hereditary absolute monarch is going to make things better simply because he's the "ordained" Muslim leader. Think about that.
 
Zapages said:
Then how is a prime minister(Parliament) , president (House of Rep/Senate) or even the Pope different than Caliph and the Shurrah.
They're not Muslim, so they're more trustworthy ;)

Forgetting that the first ones were people that accomplished things we live on today. Umar Ibn Khattab was the first to introduce welfare on earth, he also had the first efficient and active police force on earth.

Nerevar said:
are you serious? Because every "Caliph" has been a hereditary monarch. You're seriously suggesting that uniting all of the middle east (which can't even stay stable in the many fractured countries that do exist) under a single hereditary absolute monarch is going to make things better simply because he's the "ordained" Muslim leader. Think about that.

Muhammad (saw) proves you wrong, he was much more than a caliph. He was the founder of 20 celestial Empires,and is now the most mentioned man on earth. His name will forever be bared in the history books, far more than any man ever has.

So yes, ONE man is the solution
 
Nerevar said:
are you serious? Because every "Caliph" (excepting the first and second who was, ironically, assassinated by political enemies) has been a hereditary monarch. You're seriously suggesting that uniting all of the middle east (which can't even stay stable in the many fractured countries that do exist) under a single hereditary absolute monarch is going to make things better simply because he's the "ordained" Muslim leader. Think about that.

Caliphate is not a monarchy....

A Caliph is choosen through the shurah aka parliament.
 
AmMortal said:
Muhammad (saw) proves you wrong, he was much more than a caliph. He was the founder of 20 celestial Empires,and is now the most mentioned man on earth. His name will forever be bared in the history books, far more than any man ever has.

So yes, ONE man is the solution

:lol

fair enough. I'll give you that - if Muhammed comes back from the dead to reunite all the Muslims and preaches faith, unity, and happiness the Arab world will be better off.

Caliphate is not a monarchy....

A Caliph is choosen through the shurah aka parliament.

Yet every Caliphate has devolved into hereditary monarchy, from the first (the Umayyads, founded after several "elected" Caliphs were assassinated) to the last (the Ottomans, who watched their empire collapse in front of their very eyes as nationalist movements at the edges further strained their ability to rule effectively as a central government). Sure, the idea is fine, it's just not going to happen. It's simply not realistic. As I said, if Muhammed himself comes back from the dead to lead all Muslims, then it would work wonderfully. Short of that - not a chance.
 
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