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The Official Halo 3 Thread

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Had my first big Halo 3 lan experience today, thought I might share it.

I was in a tournament of around 25 people, 3 360s were present each with four controllers, two with big HD screens and one with a decent sized HDTV. First thing is, I've never been to a lan tournament before, but it was so much fun.

I started out badly, in the warmups getting thrashed on The Pit (he had 25, I was 2nd with 11 or so) but nevertheless, I gave it a go anyway and entered.

All were five minute 4 player matches of slayer on any map the group decided. I was matched against my friend, and arch rival, who had mecilessly been kicking my ass at Halo 2 ever since we started playing, and two unknown players. Turns out, the two unknows weren't much good, so it was basically me and my friend trying to get the most kills. After a couple of amazing stickys (I'm not kidding, they were great) I manged to win the match by 8 kill, suprising everyone.

The second match was against the guy I regarded as the best, and I held my own, coming in second place. The third was on Narrows, again coming in second place, and the last was a High Ground match, which I narrowly took with only 4 points seperating the top two.

Those 2 wins and 2 second places were enough to see me though, to a 12 man free for all on Last Resort! Yes, I was suprised, but it turned out to be the best game of the night, myself and my friend coming first and second respectively after killstealing our way straight to the top. Highlight of that game was some guy in the ghost running over four people (including myself) in a straight line burst.

Four more people were dropped, and an 8 man High Ground match was setup. I found my character in a bright white suit (not the best colour considering everyone else was green) but nevertheless I pushed on, and after getting stuck on 23 points while in first place, eventually finished the match in third (first place had 32 points!).

Finally, a four player match was set up to decide the winner. It was me, my friend, and two brothers, one of which had beat me badly in the warmup session. Picking the map was key to my victory, I thought, so I went for Guardian, as did another of the brothers. Then my friend wanted to play Snowbound, and as no one really bothered to argue (I could tell the other guys thought it was a stupid pick) we ended up playing that.

Five minutes, most kills win. I took the lead, with 4 kills, then hit a slump and around the 2 minute mark was overtaken, here was where I realised Snowbound was a stupid choice, as I waded through the bottom tunnels for about two minutes finding nobody while the others racked up the kills, leaving me more than a little pissed off. The match ended with the two brothers coming first and second, and me coming joint third with my friend. I couldn't help feel that it would have been a lot different if the map were Guardian, though the eventual winner definately deserved his victory.

So, for anyone who bothered to read all that. My summery on the situation is, Halo 3 is an excellent game and I haven't had that much fun with a game in a long time. Also, maulers are overpowered. :D

Edit: Sorry about the lifeblog, I've had a little to drink.
 
FFChris said:
Had my first big Halo 3 lan experience today, thought I might share it.

I was in a tournament of around 25 people, 3 360s were present each with four controllers, two with big HD screens and one with a decent sized HDTV. First thing is, I've never been to a lan tournament before, but it was so much fun.

I started out badly, in the warmups getting thrashed on The Pit (he had 25, I was 2nd with 11 or so) but nevertheless, I gave it a go anyway and entered.

All were five minute 4 player matches of slayer on any map the group decided. I was matched against my friend, and arch rival, who had mecilessly been kicking my ass at Halo 2 ever since we started playing, and two unknown players. Turns out, the two unknows weren't much good, so it was basically me and my friend trying to get the most kills. After a couple of amazing stickys (I'm not kidding, they were great) I manged to win the match by 8 kill, suprising everyone.

The second match was against the guy I regarded as the best, and I held my own, coming in second place. The third was on Narrows, again coming in second place, and the last was a High Ground match, which I narrowly took with only 4 points seperating the top two.

Those 2 wins and 2 second places were enough to see me though, to a 12 man free for all on Last Resort! Yes, I was suprised, but it turned out to be the best game of the night, myself and my friend coming first and second respectively after killstealing our way straight to the top. Highlight of that game was some guy in the ghost running over four people (including myself) in a straight line burst.

Four more people were dropped, and an 8 man High Ground match was setup. I found my character in a bright white suit (not the best colour considering everyone else was green) but nevertheless I pushed on, and after getting stuck on 23 points while in first place, eventually finished the match in third (first place had 32 points!).

Finally, a four player match was set up to decide the winner. It was me, my friend, and two brothers, one of which had beat me badly in the warmup session. Picking the map was key to my victory, I thought, so I went for Guardian, as did another of the brothers. Then my friend wanted to play Snowbound, and as no one really bothered to argue (I could tell the other guys thought it was a stupid pick) we ended up playing that.

Five minutes, most kills win. I took the lead, with 4 kills, then hit a slump and around the 2 minute mark was overtaken, here was where I realised Snowbound was a stupid choice, as I waded through the bottom tunnels for about two minutes finding nobody while the others racked up the kills, leaving me more than a little pissed off. The match ended with the two brothers coming first and second, and me coming joint third with my friend. I couldn't help feel that it would have been a lot different if the map were Guardian, though the eventual winner definately deserved his victory.

So, for anyone who bothered to read all that. My summery on the situation is, Halo 3 is an excellent game and I haven't had that much fun with a game in a long time. Also, maulers are overpowered. :D

Edit: Sorry about the lifeblog, I've had a little to drink.

But dude, BR start and melee...we're not allowed to post having fun with Halo 3 anymore. >.>
 
Ramirez said:
But dude, BR start and melee...we're not allowed to post having fun with Halo 3 anymore. >.>

I know, I was having fun without the map being MLG 'balanced', imagine that.

What I found a bit pathetic was my friend complaining loudly about melee at some points when I killed him, when I'm pretty sure if I hadn't told him about the problem he wouldn't even recognise it. :lol
 
the disgruntled gamer said:
So, what's the deal with the heatmaps? They seem a bit... off. I must have killed people in more than 19 spots on Narrows. They just seem a bit empty to me. Anyone have an explanation? Obviously, it's still in beta and all...
Bungie has said only some of the data is going into the heat maps right now until they decide it's 'out of beta' and can go full throttle. I think they said only half the games or something. (not sure if that's half of all games or half of a player's games...)
 
DD-11 said:
Is this really necessary? You come off as a bit of a whiner. Yes, the new game is different from the old game. You sound like all those gamers who cried because bungie balanced the pistol. Get used to it, it's a new system for a new game. Just as I said earlier, filling someone with more bullets takes just as much skill, timing and speed as a quick melee strike.

Well, either do that or pray that Bungie patches, but it's not as if you're brining anything new to the issue.

Except it makes melee pointless because the time it takes to pull off the melee gives your opponent time to put more bullets into you (even if the two of you had done equal damage to each other up to that point), then he can just press the melee button after already being dead and get the point.
 
The completely broken melee system is why I quit playing it online.

I don't even know what the fuck they were thinking. Especially how it plays an integral role in many battles.
 
I spent three evenings running through the game gathering skulls (all but the IWHBYD skull, which I'm not interested in), and the past two using them in campaign scoring.

Does anyone like them? I found every single one of them to increase frustration and decrease my enjoyment of the game; it just wasn't fun. I've done various combinations of a few skulls and concluded that none of them make the game more challenging in an entertaining way. Well, Grunt Birthday Party is a hoot, but that's about it.

I'm going to work on Mass Effect starting tonight, but I think I'm more or less done with Halo 3. The campaign on single player is absolutely excellent, but the Issue Which Shall Not Be Named has kept me away from MP, and the skulls, which I expected to draw me through Campaign again for the scoring challenges, are very disappointing.
 
I found pretty much all of them to be a fun addition, aside from the one that makes you restart the entire level if you die. Oh, and the melee to get health one...

Only real problem I have with Halo 3's melee is that all of the weapons do the same amount of damage, and it doesn't matter if you're running, jumping, or standing still. That needs to be changed, IMO.
 
GhaleonEB said:
I spent three evenings running through the game gathering skulls (all but the IWHBYD skull, which I'm not interested in), and the past two using them in campaign scoring.

Does anyone like them? I found every single one of them to increase frustration and decrease my enjoyment of the game; it just wasn't fun. I've done various combinations of a few skulls and concluded that none of them make the game more challenging in an entertaining way. Well, Grunt Birthday Party is a hoot, but that's about it.

I'm going to work on Mass Effect starting tonight, but I think I'm more or less done with Halo 3. The campaign on single player is absolutely excellent, but the Issue Which Shall Not Be Named has kept me away from MP, and the skulls, which I expected to draw me through Campaign again for the scoring challenges, are very disappointing.
Why aren't you interested in IWHBYD? Thats the best one! You do know what it does right?
 
MaX_PL said:
how many people played halo 2 at this time into its life?

seems like the h3 pop is declining and it'll only get worse once cod4 is released.


Our population dips a little after every cool new game is released, I don't expect that trend to change after something as sweet as COD4. Then it picks up again and spikes when we release new maps, and I don't see that changing either.

Halo 3 has a higher and more consistent population than H2 at this time in its lifespan, however. I am sure that is the information you were seeking.
 
In matchmaking does anyone ever just feel like using odd weapons to get kills and do rather well? Today I was on (forgot map name) and decided to stop using the BR and just use stuff people hardly touch like the pistol, weak as it is I like how sometimes I can take down a carbine user with just one pistol :lol
 
GhaleonEB said:
I spent three evenings running through the game gathering skulls (all but the IWHBYD skull, which I'm not interested in), and the past two using them in campaign scoring.

Does anyone like them? I found every single one of them to increase frustration and decrease my enjoyment of the game; it just wasn't fun. I've done various combinations of a few skulls and concluded that none of them make the game more challenging in an entertaining way. Well, Grunt Birthday Party is a hoot, but that's about it.

I found that the tough luck, catch, and thunderstorm skulls gave me a tough but fair challenge on Normal, while giving more than enough points to get the achievments.
 
Ramirez said:
Time to get back into the MP of this, COD has run it's course with me for a while. You don't shake the rust off easy in Halo MP. :(

yeah and you seem to hate me :< ACCEPT MY INVITESSSS ACCEPT NOW
 
GhaleonEB said:
Does anyone like them? I found every single one of them to increase frustration and decrease my enjoyment of the game; it just wasn't fun.
I actually love the skulls, but I'm selective in what I choose to use. I find Tilt, Black Eye and Iron to be extremely dumb in one of two ways. Either they're a devolution of the Halo's gamplay (Tilt) or they're just not worth the risk/reward.

That being said, I love Thunderstorm and Mythic, which make the enemies more difficult to take down without making their attacks horrifically unbalanced. Fog is a friend of mine because I've always thought radar was a crutch for weak players, and I heart Famine as well, as it brings some of the previous two game's Legendary vibes back to the forefront once again: weapon/ammo scavenging. I'll play with Catch on certain missions, but I usually always run with Tough Luck on. I think it's the most fair challenge offered by the skulls. The silver skulls are all worth it as well, except for Cowbell which I've seen very little noticeable variation from.

When I play by myself, I usually go with Heroic and toss in three or four gold (Tough Luck, Thunderstorm, Fog and Famine) and all silver. When I play cooperatively, I throw it up to Legendary and use the aforementioned skulls, plus Mythic and if I can convince the other players, Catch. I don't find it to be terribly difficult, but comfortably so on both settings. Again, it depends on the level too. Some levels like Sierra 117 and Crow's Nest are tough because of the close-quarters encounters and the environment advantages given to the enemies, but levels like Tsavo Highway, The Storm, The Ark and The Covenant are quite enjoyable with those skulls or similar layouts.

You know what would be awesome: To be able to select your weapon set from a short list of them at the start of the mission. That way, when I'm playing as an Elite, I don't get stuck with shitty weapons. I like the idea of keeping the fiction within regard to the actual characters, but they should have access to the same weapon cache.
 
Stinkles said:
Our population dips a little after every cool new game is released, I don't expect that trend to change after something as sweet as COD4. Then it picks up again and spikes when we release new maps, and I don't see that changing either.

Halo 3 has a higher and more consistent population than H2 at this time in its lifespan, however. I am sure that is the information you were seeking.

I'm really sorry to bombard you with a question considering you just got back, but I was wondering if you had any clue as to whether the Halo 3 OST would be available on the Zune MP ? When I search up "Halo 3" on the Zune MP the soundtrack shows up (what's funny is that it's called Halo 3 Movie Soundtrack for some reason, anyways), but the album/songs show up as "Not Available" under the purchase bar. It has all 32 songs listed with their names and everything, but no buy. :(
 
AdmiralViscen said:
Except it makes melee pointless because the time it takes to pull off the melee gives your opponent time to put more bullets into you (even if the two of you had done equal damage to each other up to that point), then he can just press the melee button after already being dead and get the point.

Yeah, that's just not true and a bunch of crap, but whatever, hate away.

Welcome back to the asylum, Stinkles.
 
I just got my HALO 3 Soundtrack in the mail! I didn't realise it was 2 discs worth! What an awesome surprise!

There's this awesome awesome bit toward the end of 'Behold a Pale Horse' that is so beautiful I can't believe it didn't make it into the game. I <3 this OST.
 
Mr Vociferous said:
When I play by myself, I usually go with Heroic and toss in three or four gold (Tough Luck, Thunderstorm, Fog and Famine) and all silver. When I play cooperatively, I throw it up to Legendary and use the aforementioned skulls, plus Mythic and if I can convince the other players, Catch. I don't find it to be terribly difficult, but comfortably so on both settings. Again, it depends on the level too. Some levels like Sierra 117 and Crow's Nest are tough because of the close-quarters encounters and the environment advantages given to the enemies, but levels like Tsavo Highway, The Storm, The Ark and The Covenant are quite enjoyable with those skulls or similar layouts.

I havent played with skulls yet but i think i´m gonna definitely enjoy the ones you just pointed and Catch. From what legendary i´ve played yet (finished tsavo highway) i felt the enemies were a bit more cautious than i expected, not very aggresive. They didnt push you or surrounded like the elites in halo1 that almost didnt let you breathe.

Mr Vociferous said:
You know what would be awesome: To be able to select your weapon set from a short list of them at the start of the mission. That way, when I'm playing as an Elite, I don't get stuck with shitty weapons. I like the idea of keeping the fiction within regard to the actual characters, but they should have access to the same weapon cache.

I suppose is not possible (and Bungie isnt keen on bots anyway i think) but imho at least some kind of survival mode, with score, would have been nice. Let you use forge to put some enemy AI spawning generators (on multiplayer maps)and let you customize available weapons, items, etc... to make some kind of survival, assault, defend modes.
 
ToyMachine228 said:
In a standard Team Slayer game on Xbox Live, let's say there are four melee battles about to go down at once. In a game with a "host advantage", one of the four battles is affected.
No. This is only true if everyone has even pings to the host. I'm going to guess that you are playing Halo in North America, against North Americans.

If you played in Europe, you would occasionally be paired up against all-US teams. The problem here is that *everyone* on the host team has "host advantage".

The host obviously has a latency of zero: what he sees on his screen is what happens in the game. The other three guys on his team have about 30ms latency, because they're pretty close.

All the guys on the other team across the atlantic have 200ms latency to the host. So in any 50:50 battle between the teams, the side with host gets a 170ms--200ms latency advantage. This means that with the Halo 2 system, unless you get lucky or out-fox the other player, you're not ever going to get a melee strike in because you'll be dead first.
 
alisdair said:
No. This is only true if everyone has even pings to the host. I'm going to guess that you are playing Halo in North America, against North Americans.

If you played in Europe, you would occasionally be paired up against all-US teams. The problem here is that *everyone* on the host team has "host advantage".

The host obviously has a latency of zero: what he sees on his screen is what happens in the game. The other three guys on his team have about 30ms latency, because they're pretty close.

All the guys on the other team across the atlantic have 200ms latency to the host. So in any 50:50 battle between the teams, the side with host gets a 170ms--200ms latency advantage. This means that with the Halo 2 system, unless you get lucky or out-fox the other player, you're not ever going to get a melee strike in because you'll be dead first.



There is an option to play with people near you, you know.
 
EvaPlusMinus said:
There is an option to play with people near you, you know.
No, there isn't. There's "Prefer Good Connection", which doesn't actually work---you'll get games with consistent connections but high latency.
 
alisdair said:
No. This is only true if everyone has even pings to the host. I'm going to guess that you are playing Halo in North America, against North Americans.

If you played in Europe, you would occasionally be paired up against all-US teams. The problem here is that *everyone* on the host team has "host advantage".

The host obviously has a latency of zero: what he sees on his screen is what happens in the game. The other three guys on his team have about 30ms latency, because they're pretty close.

All the guys on the other team across the atlantic have 200ms latency to the host. So in any 50:50 battle between the teams, the side with host gets a 170ms--200ms latency advantage. This means that with the Halo 2 system, unless you get lucky or out-fox the other player, you're not ever going to get a melee strike in because you'll be dead first.

Being in the UK i just thought id quote this again :D
 
alisdair said:
No, there isn't. There's "Prefer Good Connection", which doesn't actually work---you'll get games with consistent connections but high latency.
Yup. I'm sure there are ancient posts of mine on Bungie.net lamenting that there was no region-specific matchmaking in Halo 2. I think there is a big enough European community of players to sustain our own matchmaking "ecosystem".
 
After my first listen through both disks of the soundtrack, I'm quite impressed. One thing that hit me was just how much new music is really in the game. Many of the themes from the first two games are back, some in very new iterations, but some of the new music is my favorite on the album. The new theme heard during the end of the opening cinematic and again when rescuing Cortana is beautiful, as is the gentle hymn-like track just ahead of and then in the map room. This is Our Land and Farthest Outpost are other standouts; rousing, memorable stuff. A few other random thoughts:

--None of the suites dwell too long on any one section. I love the Halo 2, Volume 2 album, but a few suites plot a bit at times (Mombasa Suite and High Charity come to mind). Here the ambient music is represented but not over-done and it moves at a good pace.

--Love the new Brothers in Arms. It's my favorite piece from Halo 1, but on that soundtrack the rendition is rushed a bit. The chugging cellos that open it build a bit longer in the game, so I was thrilled to hear it given proper rendition here. There's some subtle changes that make it feel less like a military piece, less confrontational yet with a more epic sweep.

--Sequencing the music the same as it is in the game worked quite well, and many of the transitions are surprisingly effective. Where tracks appear multiple times they are referenced, and then blended into the next piece so as to avoid repetition; there's a LOT of music in here. Moving from ambient to thematic, electronic to orchestral the whole thing somehow feels quite cohesive. Marty and Michael really did some amazing stuff.

Love it overall. I'll be spending a lot of time with it the next few weeks. I'm so glad they waited to put out a proper, two-disk set. It's the best soundtrack to a game I've ever heard. (For those who asked earlier, yup, I enjoy it more than the first two. :) )
 
GhaleonEB said:
After my first listen through both disks of the soundtrack, I'm quite impressed. One thing that hit me was just how much new music is really in the game. Many of the themes from the first two games are back, some in very new iterations, but some of the new music is my favorite on the album. The new theme heard during the end of the opening cinematic and again when rescuing Cortana is beautiful, as is the gentle hymn-like track just ahead of and then in the map room. This is Our Land and Farthest Outpost are other standouts; rousing, standout stuff. A few other random thoughts:

--None of the suites dwell too long on any one section. I love the Halo 2, Volume 2 album, but a few suites plot a bit at times (Mombasa Suite and High Charity come to mind). Here the ambient music is represented but not over-done and it moves at a good pace.

--Love the new Brothers in Arms. It's my favorite piece from Halo 1, but on that soundtrack the rendition is rushed a bit. The chugging cellos that open it build a bit longer in the game, so I was thrilled to hear it given proper rendition here. There's some subtle changes that make it feel less like a military piece, less confrontational yet with a more epic sweep.

--Sequencing the music the same as it is in the game worked quite well, and many of the transitions are surprisingly effective. Where tracks appear multiple times they are referenced, and then blended into the next piece so as to avoid repetition; there's a LOT of music in here. Moving from ambient to thematic, electronic to orchestral the whole thing somehow feels quite cohesive. Marty and Michael really did some amazing stuff.

Love it overall. I'll be spending a lot of time with it the next few weeks. I'm so glad they waited to put out a proper, two-disk set. It's the best soundtrack to a game I've ever heard. (For those who asked earlier, yup, I enjoy it more than the first two. :) )

Thanks for the impressions! Should be getting mine Tuesday. 3 day shipping got corrupted by the holiday, and I'm upset that I didn't just opt for normal shipping.
 
GhaleonEB said:
--Sequencing the music the same as it is in the game worked quite well, and many of the transitions are surprisingly effective. Where tracks appear multiple times they are referenced, and then blended into the next piece so as to avoid repetition; there's a LOT of music in here. Moving from ambient to thematic, electronic to orchestral the whole thing somehow feels quite cohesive. Marty and Michael really did some amazing stuff.

Agree, it helps to keep the mood and remembrance of the game cutscenes. And i like the constant contrast between moody, electronic, classic and new furious percussions sections in allmost all the tracks and the way they melt together.

And after some first listenings i´m quite fond of the moody, keyboards leaded new pieces, which to me sound a bit like a depart in tone from previous classic moody pieces or the chorus ones, because of the eerie feelings that i think describe very well the ark and its importance regarding forerunners cosntructions. (Not sure if i´m explaining here very well).

I have too discovered some segments i havent heard in the game yet or didnt appreciate btw.

Nice also that they included the teaser-trailers music. Althought i love the new main theme (most present in "this is the hour" piece, specially the drums section that opens the "crescendo"; or in other tracks where the piano notes lead to the classical main theme) i think i prefer the teaser-trailer one, which is a bit different.

One last comment, listening to "Luck" and "WmWynM" remind me of how great imho are the beginning and ending of the game.
 
Anyone else go up the point on The Covenant where Siege of Madrigal plays? So awesome. :D I really wish the entire song would play, it lacks the chant/hum of the original version, makes it so much better. :(
 
FunkyMunkey said:
Was thinking about playing again.

Have the melee crap and playlists been fixed yet?


We need answers. I've been itching to play this again, but I'm afraid I'll be upset when I put the disc in.
 
Melee has not been "fixed" because it's not broken :)

Social Doubles is gone, Team Slayer now has almost no Shotty Snipers, and has Valhalla and Guardian added. Lone Wolves is now mostly Slayer and Swords, much less ball/king. Team Hardcore is apparently coming soon.
 
All I can say is, I have discovered the Awesomemess that is BTB. I never played it a lot back in Halo 2 days and I enjoy it a lot. Mainly because I just go around killing and getting kills. +27 k/ratio is an awesome thing!
 
neoism said:
All I can say is, I have discovered the Awesomemess that is BTB. I never played it a lot back in Halo 2 days and I enjoy it a lot. Mainly because I just go around killing and getting kills. +27 k/ratio is an awesome thing!
Be even better when it's ranked and more MP maps. :)
 
EvaPlusMinus said:
We need answers. I've been itching to play this again, but I'm afraid I'll be upset when I put the disc in.
It'll likely be fixed near when the Heroic Map Pack launches, but I use the term 'fix' loosely. My personal hope is that they are shortening the response 'simultaneous window' time amount. My understanding is that it's at .5 seconds (15 frames). I'm curious what 5 frames would do to make melee attacks more fair and buffer against host advantage. I'd also like a fix on the ghost reload issue. A night or two ago, I was using the AR, I reloaded it once and it displayed the reload animation three times in a row, then the ammo was completely gone for about 10 seconds. Then I reloaded it once more and it worked. I'm hoping some of the glitches discovered by MLG are resolved as well.

When Halo 2's 1.1 patch came out in April of 2005, they reset the stats for the first time. They had a few reasonable arguments for doing so and I wonder if they'll do that here. I notice the ranking in Halo 3 seems much easier for people to scale. I hardly play multiplayer outside of campaign (compared to the average Halo player that is), but even as a low-grade Lieutenant, I've been easily dispatching 40+ skill players. In Halo 2, differences aside, 30+ skill players gave me headaches. If they reset the stats, I think it would be a nice change to the ranking system to make it a little more difficult to scale. I'd prefer them removing any and all types of ranking from public view, but I'm pretty sure that'll never happen. Remember Halo 1 LANs? When players played for fun and not for a number or military insignia? Stats are fine and dandy, but rank is dumb.

Regarding the new maps, it would be nice if we got some additional screenshots. All of these shots look pretty, but they lack the substance serious players enjoy. Even Standoff gives a shallow view of the environment, while Rat's Nest and Foundry look like shots at one corner of the map. Hopefully we'll get more images in the next week or so.

The soundtrack is the best videogame soundtrack out there, a title I had reserved for Advent Rising's for some time. It has some of the best themes from the previous two games, and aside for that fan track, it's flawless. The new theme that is frequented throughout the game itself and emphatically on 'Wake Me When You Need Me' is the best in the series - it appears to be a reworking of the classic choral theme with string and wind instruments. The one thing about this soundtrack that differs from almost every video game soundtrack out there is that a lot of the newer themes are far more cinematic and could aptly find their way into a film rather than a game. That says a lot for the score itself, but it even says more about the direction games should be heading in terms of music.
 
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