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Australian Competition and Consumer Commission suing Valve over refund policy
- Thread starter jambo
- Start date
They may not always have the teeth to make a difference but by god they always seem to try their hardest.
That would most likely involve the actual publishers, since they are the ones that set prices; Valve just makes suggestions.
For those unfamiliar with Australian Consumer Law, it favours the consumer heavily...which is great!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RXEyKIlMvw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RXEyKIlMvw
soxinthebox
Member
Interesting to see how this shakes out. Publishers charge us more for digital products over here just because so it'd be nice if there was some benefit to buying locally.
Local digital what a dumb concept.
IncandescentPrecept
Banned
Not everyone can move to Australia.
Trust me as an Australian person, you really don't want to live in Australia as a gamer because everything is expensive and the internet infrastructure is third world.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
+1 for consumer rights and protections.
businesses won't suddenly pack up and leave if there is money to be made (and there is) just because of some hurt feelings or laws providing consumers some protection, and if they do, they don't deserve to be a business period.
businesses won't suddenly pack up and leave if there is money to be made (and there is) just because of some hurt feelings or laws providing consumers some protection, and if they do, they don't deserve to be a business period.
CmdrShepard
Member
Well done to the ACCC. If Valve wants to continue to let publishers set an Australia tax on their platform (Beyond Earth being the most recent culprit to get press) then they can abide by Aussie law, otherwise give us access to the US store and their prices.
I don't agree with it personally but at the very least the member has linked the article. It's not good form to paste the entire article but i wouldn't expect more then a slap on the wrist.
Sorry Mark.
EDIT: It's been fixed. Good form!
I don't agree with it personally but at the very least the member has linked the article. It's not good form to paste the entire article but i wouldn't expect more then a slap on the wrist.
Sorry Mark.
EDIT: It's been fixed. Good form!
BlackLagoon
Member
Pretty sure most of Europe has similar laws. If Valve decides to fight this, they'll undoubtedly find themselves under fire in more countries.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
Origin has refunds. I doubt the infrastructure is "expensive as hell".
It's not. To comply with Australian law all they have to do is actually refund Australians who email them asking for a refund on a broken game and remove the mentions of "no refunds" for any Australian user when purchasing a game. That's literally all they have to do.
jediyoshi
Member
What constitutes a broken game? What are the actual restrictions? Because given your scenario literally, all people literally could do is buy games, finish them, and then literally receive a refund under literally under auspice the consumer deems broken.
The funny part is that if they did have more articulated wording surrounding refunds, it's almost as if people wouldn't read it anyway. If they did that. Only if.
No they couldn't do that because the act of playing the game to completion proves it's clearly not broken. Broken means that its not fit for purpose. If it's a single player game and it doesn't run or crashes its broken. If its a multiplayer game and you can't connect to the servers or it doesn't run or crashes it's broken. It's the same set of rules that apply to a physical product. If it's not fit for purpose you are entitled to a refund.
From the ACCC website
They then go on to define a major problem
Playing a game to completion would clearly not meet the criteria of a major problem.
TheForceWithin
Banned
Which is part of why the ACCC is taking on Valve right now as doing that runs in contrast to Aus law I believe. You actually have to state that refunds are available and not deceive your customers into thinking otherwise.
jellies_two
Member
It is nice that they want the software industry to solve these things however their guidelines are oriented around people buying cars, home improvements and toasters from Aldi. Not software.
All software is buggy, how do you draw the line between acceptably buggy and irredeemably buggy? It is impossible and a government department would have to grow another department to arbitrate disputes.
Better to adjust the legislation so that software refunds on digital downloads are allowed if the logged time of use is below some number of hours. What would it cost Valve to offer a refund on something? their delivery cost is practically zero. There just needs to be a system that isn't exploited by kids who will use it to play everything for free for a weekend.
There's no difference in my mind. A game that I cannot play is no different to a DOA motherboard or a lemon of a car or a toaster that fails to make toast. I should and do have the right to a refund. And sure, a refund policy could be exploited, but I think this will be and is minority of cases where it already exists. If Valve can prove a user is exploiting their policy they have every right to enforce their ToS.
I say this as someone who has never asked for a refund on software. Every piece of software I have ever bought has been fit for purpose. I have come close a couple of times though, and when the time does come I expect to get one with little to no resistance.
Wouldn't it be smarter to put a refund system in, and then just stop anyone from abusing it over and over and over?
I suppose they can make new accounts for every game, but I'm sure valve can do some IP checking.
Omnii-chan
Member
What an absolutely ignorant comment. No words.
If Valve will let any broken and unfinished piece of crap game be sold on their store, they should take responsibility and offer a refund if the game is in some way unplayable. It is consumer policy in most developed countries in the world to have an option for refund if your product does not work as intended. I understand not having refunds for change of mind and other simple reasons, but when they let shit like War Z or Colin McRae Rally onto the store, selling the shoddiest, underdeveloped games in the market or using false advertising to get sales, they owe it to their customers to have that option, like any store.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
They could just do an EA and have a set time where refunds are available. Sure people can abuse it but I'm going to bet that 99% won't.
That argument also assumes Valve somehow blindly enters markets without knowing their laws. Ridiculous.
roosters93
Member
Well you're talking out of your ass here, you don't have any idea quite how expensive refund infrastructure is do you?
By your logic Steam should rid itself of all support infrastructure as it is expensive as hell. Put up signs saying no support and if you don't like it don't use it. USA USA USA (where the S is Steam. The A is also Steam)
This is definitely the most logical course of action, I concur.
that's not a refund. that is an exchange. You gave Steam x amount of real moneys, they gave you some virtual currency back only to be spent on more of their products.
So anyone who ever requests a refund is a child? Wow.
If someone steals your credit card and blows $100k do you ask the bank for your money back or no? Because you made a choice to get a credit card knowing such a thing could happen and maybe you should take complete responsibility for that.
oh wow
No you weren't just complaining about a purchase as a shot in the dark, you were being a goddamn hypocrite.
I think introducing some of arbitrary time limit is a worse distinction than between buggy and not buggy. What if a game came out that works fine for the first 10 hours and then you can never finish the rest of the game? There would eventually be some recompense I'm sure but it may be delayed until the problem is widespread and acknowledged and if their policy is you can't have a refund after x amount of hours maybe they could hold out on you.
chicko1983
Member
Anyone got any idea how many sales Valve makes in the Australian region?
I'm not surprised. Valve set up a support office in Luxembourg expressly to avoid changing general policy:
Expect a similar SSA update in the not-too-distant future.
The entire Oceania region accounted for 5% of Steam's sales revenue last year:
Worse still is Valve refuses to provide refunds on unused gifts despite the fact that the beginning of the auto-refund process states the exact opposite:
I mentioned this in my ticket, but my request was still denied:
If nothing else, refunds on Early Access games should most definitely be general policy considering, by their very nature, they have an uncertain future (i.e. there should be some protection for users when a game is abandoned or development is otherwise halted). It's amusing that Gabe often speaks about how whenever Valve makes a decision the question of "How will this benefit our customers?" is asked yet absolutely no effort has been made to improve support policies outside of the account restriction system replacing account bans/suspensions.
The drop off is pretty crazy considering 5% is the 3rd largest territory by sales, even still I don't think it matters as this is something they should definitely be addressing (right after their customer service in general which is horrendous). Also I have to say that poster on the first page was outrageous, you'd think consumer rights had assaulted them as a child the way they were acting - this is a good thing :\
I agree that Valve should offer better refund options, but I have a question for you regarding "broken" games.
- What if the persons computer is the reason the single player game won't run? What if it's conflicting software? Does Valve still have to issue a refund?
- What if the multiplayer game won't connect because the player's router or anti-virus is blocking ports for the game to work? Does Valve still have to issue a refund?
I don't believe offering refunds for digital software is quite as straight forward as refunds for physical products. Then again, I can go to Lowes, buy a light bulb and return it because it didn't fit the socket at my house. I have heard somewhere though that refunds are calculated into the prices of products. Hopefully Valve can put into place a decent refund system that everyone can use.
Well obviously i'm on the ACCC's side of things. If companies like GOG, GMG and 'evil' EA can do refunds then Valve has no fucken excuse. It's bullshit that a broken or falsely advertised product can be sold on the service and Valve can take the money and run.
Cool let us have refunds then Valve.
Cool let us have refunds then Valve.
Kotaku got their hands on the application papers for the ACCC lawsuit
http://www.kotaku.com.au/2014/09/the-acccs-list-of-demands-for-valve/
They want Valve to create an email address, 1800 toll-free number and PO Box, with (local?) representatives to deal with all refunds.
As far as I know Valve has no staff in Australia, so this could be interesting if the ACCC are successful.
http://www.kotaku.com.au/2014/09/the-acccs-list-of-demands-for-valve/
They want Valve to create an email address, 1800 toll-free number and PO Box, with (local?) representatives to deal with all refunds.
As far as I know Valve has no staff in Australia, so this could be interesting if the ACCC are successful.
The fact that they don't already have those things is amazing really. In the worst possible way.
How much revenue do they generate through the Steam store on an annual basis? It would be well over a billion dollars at this point. And yet their customer support is truly laughable.
How much revenue do they generate through the Steam store on an annual basis? It would be well over a billion dollars at this point. And yet their customer support is truly laughable.
kerotan_eater
Banned
Who the heck has time for that? If Valve says it works, it should bloody work, and there are times when it hasn't been the case.
It's not bad considering the population of Oceania is less than that of UK, which isn't even the most populous country in Europe.
I'd nominate myself for local online support. The Steam threads are collectively my resume.
Lord Panda
The Sea is Always Right
Definitely in the ACCC's corner on this matter.
i would love this. steam needs live support
ashecitism
Member
toddhunter
Member
Could happen:
ACCC: We demand all of the above and it needs to be done soon.
Valve: lol nope.
ACCC: Ok, then we will direct Valve to the online gambling regulators in Australia.
Valve: People in Sydney, Melbourne and Perth ok?
Success puts you on the radar and one day Valve (and others) are going to have to make some big changes.
Shameless cross-post:
This was posted on another forum that I occasionally visit (see message #7):
If there are any other Aussies with an unplayable game, mention the ACCC lawsuit and see how you go.