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Cipherr · Mar 1, 2015

I dont see how they arent. It would be impossible for those little toys to do anything once NFC scanned if the data wasnt on the disc unless it prompted a download everytime that you scanned them.

Every single thing done with Amiibos/Toys/Disney Inifinity etc etc etc could likely be done as regular ass dlc. I thought we all knew this long ago?

Edit: so if so, why does it get a pass?

It gets a pass? I haven't noticed any difference between it and the spreadsheet dlc games and day 1 dlc games. Some people dont mind, some people hate it, some people dont care.

Laconic · Mar 1, 2015

Amiibos mortally wounded my love for Nintendo.

No regular N3DS in America put it out of its misery.

Amiibos are seriously scummy, scummy exploitation.

They make Day One DLC look like a less unpleasant pile of AIDS infected monkey shite, comparatively.

bobawesome · Mar 1, 2015

TI82 said:
Edit: so if so, why does it get a pass?

Put out something cute and fans will eat it up.

Draxal · Mar 1, 2015

TheSpoiler said:
Ahh I see. Yeah, it's random and a cute thing for them to do that with, and not something I mind. In fact, it'd be cool if they gave you in-game prizes ala boosts and stuff if you scan them.

Anything better than a moveset.

"There are 7 other movesets why do you need that one?"

That's a very odd way of sidestepping the issue, which they could have just added it as DLC normally.

Not sidestepping, Hyrule Warriors amiibo usage is trivial, compared to Mario Party usage and well trivial compared to Dynasty Warriors DLC in general.

Cipherr said:
It gets a pass? I haven't noticed any difference between it and the spreadsheet dlc games and day 1 dlc games. Some people dont mind, some people hate it, some people dont care.

It doesn't get a pass it's exactly like you said.

Draxal · Mar 1, 2015

TheSpoiler · Mar 1, 2015

Draxal said:
Not sidestepping, Hyrule Warriors amiibo usage is trivial, compared to Mario Party usage and well trivial compared to Dynasty Warriors DLC in general.

How trivial something is becomes subjective per person. It may be trivial to you, but it's not trivial of me to spend 12.99 on a figurine that I'll never use again for a weapon.

And let's not pull other companies into the mix, especially when DW DLC doesn't have 12.99 weapons. Sure, it has bad DLC, extensive, but on a singular level (which we are discussing here), no single piece of DLC requires the cost of an amiibo.

They can release it as DLC and give it as a free item for those holding onto the Link figurine.

Boo hoo, how can Nintendo make use of the amiibos, you say? I don't know, it's Nintendo, they'll figure something out.

Somnid · Mar 1, 2015

This using DLC as a pejorative and then equating things to it is really damn annoying. You can dislike figurines, love them, we can have a conversation about the pros and cons of the medium but there will never be any worthwhile conversation as long as it's about awkwardly tying two completely unrelated concepts simply because you want to use one in loaded terms.

They are completely unrelated to DLC.

They are resellable, DLC is not
You can rent/borrow/share/trade figurines, DLC at best is copy only
They are physical and take up space, DLC is not
You can have multiples of a single figure, You can have 1 DLC of a given type
They work with multiple games, DLC doesn't (at least not in different ways)
They have a collectors market and limited quantity, DLC does not
Multiple figures can unlock the same content, DLC is single access or a package deal
They can take different forms at different prices, DLC is constant but can go on sale
They can hold small amounts of arbitrary data, DLC is data

So no. I disagree completely.

jblank83 · Mar 1, 2015

TheSpoiler said:
Well, it's not cosmetic. It's a new weapon, equaling a new character.

It's a new weapon for an existing character, Link, with power equivalent to his numerous other weapons. Yes, it has different animations and moves. But in a game with 13 characters and tons of weapons, like, who cares. It is, in my opinion, not much more interesting than preorder DLC cosmetic equipment.

IMO

Could they have added it via paid DLC? Sure, of course. But they're trying to sell $13 plastic figures. As far as egregious business tactics go, it's very tame.

They can release it as DLC and give it as a free item for those holding onto the Link figurine.

That's a nice idea.

Riposte · Mar 1, 2015

My previous thoughts on the matter:

Riposte said:
For the record, I have little to no issue with DLC, even on-disc DLC. However, I think your approach is completely overlooking all the bad that comes with amiibo versus normal DLC. As someone who buys DLC, amiibo come off as a bad deal, worse than what DLC is usually is.

I think there could be a bit of hypocrisy at play. Here's a thought experiment: let's say instead of "they do DLC right" Nintendo, imagine if "worse than Satan" Capcom was the subject here. To get the point across, let's forget about amiibos and instead focus on an equivalent that's appropriate for a software company: Physical DLC codes, like the ones you get for pre-ordering stuff.

So, Capcom says "guys, we are now printing these DLC codes, of four types. They won't be available online, you have to physically buy them. If you input one of these codes in Monster Hunter 4, you get access to a unique new weapon type. This is the only way to get that weapon type. These codes will cost 12 dollars each. We will only be printing a couple dozen thousand for two of these, available everywhere. The other two will be available exclusively at Gamestop or Target and we will be making even fewer of those. We realize 12 dollars is a lot, so this code will also unlock costumes in Street Fighter V and Resident Evil: Revelations 2 (again, only way to get this, so it'll be 12 dollars if you just want one costume in one of these games) - but only for two of them, because the Ryu and Megaman theme fits in better, while the Felicia and Viewtiful Joe ones are kind of niche and weird. Btw, all the stuff they unlock will already be on the disc, a la Street Fighter x Tekken. Good luck finding these codes before we cease printing them, you better pre-order, as there is a guy who really hates Viewitful Joe and is buying them up so no one can have them."

Compared to DLC practices in most games... how does that not sound worse? Saying it bluntly, it sounds like fucking nightmare. (The upside is that, because it is "on-disc", it will be preserved better for when people are just emulating these games ten or so years from now)

Laconic · Mar 1, 2015

Somnid said:
This using DLC as a pejorative and then equating things to it is really damn annoying. You can dislike figurines, love them, we can have a conversation about the pros and cons of the medium but there will never be any worthwhile conversation as long as it's about awkwardly tying two completely unrelated concepts simply because you want to use one in loaded terms.

They are completely unrelated to DLC.

They are resellable, DLC is not
You can rent/borrow/share/trade figurines, DLC at best is copy only
They are physical and take up space, DLC is not
You can have multiples of a single figure, You can have 1 DLC of a given type
They work with multiple games, DLC doesn't (at least not in different ways)
They have a collectors market and limited quantity, DLC does not
Multiple figures can unlock the same content, DLC is single access or a package deal
They can take different forms at different prices, DLC is constant but can go on sale
They can hold small amounts of arbitrary data, DLC is data

So no. I disagree completely.

It's DLC.

It's DLC evolved to the next level.

Kind of like a virus mutating.

Usobuko · Mar 1, 2015

If you take into the account of current resale market climate of Amiibo, including being aided by retail exclusive partnership, then it is really not a pleasant outlook for those who wanted the content only available on the figurine.

Somnid · Mar 1, 2015

Laconic said:
It's DLC.

It's DLC evolved to the next level.

Kind of like a virus mutating.

A virus mutating into a unicorn.

TheSpoiler · Mar 1, 2015

jres80 said:
It's a new weapon for an existing character, Link, with power equivalent to his other 5 weapons. Yes, it has different animations and moves. But in a game with 13 characters and tons of weapons, like, who cares. It is, in my opinion, not much more interesting than preorder DLC cosmetic equipment.

IMO

Could they have added it via paid DLC? Sure, of course. But they're trying to sell $13 plastic figures. As far as egregious business tactics go, it's very tame.

That's a nice idea.

Why is this a continuous thing?

"The game already has enough content what's one weapon?"

You see, when you enjoy a game, you kinda want as much as you can get from it! It's an odd concept, but I care because I want that weapon. It's incredibly reductive to exclaim that the game has a bunch of weapons already and that it's just one. It is just one, but that's part of the experience for 12.99.

Or however much those figurines are.

Javier · Mar 1, 2015

Watch Da Birdie said:
If Nintendo ever locks a new Pokemon behind an Amiibo though...well, shit, that's it. It's finished for me.

I'll take that over locking a Pokemon to a Best Buy event, being a person that lives in a country where amiibo are sold in stores but Best Buy does not exist.

Cipherr · Mar 1, 2015

TheSpoiler said:
And let's not pull other companies into the mix

This is not really possible is it. You don't want to remove context. Its a form of day 1 on disc dlc, it should be seen next to all the other various types from all other companies. It doesn't exist in a vacuum and I don't see what good anyone gets from pretending it does.

Somnid said:
This using DLC as a pejorative and then equating things to it is really damn annoying. You can dislike figurines, love them, we can have a conversation about the pros and cons of the medium but there will never be any worthwhile conversation as long as it's about awkwardly tying two completely unrelated concepts simply because you want to use one in loaded terms.

They are completely unrelated to DLC.

Nah, its plenty close enough, there are some variables that are different, like you said, they can be sold. But I don't recall anyone that didn't like Day 1 dlc going "I WOULD BE SO FINE WITH THIS IF I COULD RESELL THE CONTENT AFTER IM DONE!"

Edit: Then again Im a person that sort of sees it all as different flavors of the same thing, all the way up to MMO expansions. They are all content created and gated from the player by $$$. I decide on a case by case basis which ones Im okay with and I vote with my wallet.

kunonabi · Mar 1, 2015

Storm Kyleis said:
In Smash you get a Figure Player which is "your own" CPU character, in Mario Kart you get a costume with zero gameplay value.

It's not like anyone would buy an Amiibo specifically to "unlock" Mario's hat. It's the other way around, you buy Mario's action figure because you like him, and you get a little nod from games with Mario involved.

I dislike how Mario Party 10 hides an entire mode behind Amiibos, that's a major piece of content that should be accessible to everyone. But I couldn't care less if another player in Mario Kart is wearing Mario's hat. So, it's really up to the game.

Why should a mode designed around Amiibos be playable for people who don't own Amiibos? Would the mode even be in the game if Amiibos didn't exist?

DrNeroCF · Mar 1, 2015

Aren't they more like a code in a cereal box that unlocks extra content in a game?

As in, you buy a product and get a silly little something extra for it.

Seems like only Smash Bros actually use them for an actual feature, where the physicality of the product is utilized in the functionality.

Broritos · Mar 1, 2015

It's more like a season pass for a decent catalog of current and future games as well as a memory card thing.

Also, it's a cool little figure. Even if amiibos didn't have any video game functionality at all, the figures themselves I think are good enough to be worth the money.

Draxal · Mar 1, 2015

DrNeroCF said:
Aren't they more like a code in a cereal box that unlocks extra content in a game?

As in, you buy a product and get a silly little something extra for it.

Seems like only Smash Bros actually use them for an actual feature, where the physicality of the product is utilized in the functionality.

Mario Party 10 does use them substantially so much so the only way to get the Super Mario amiibo on launch is to get the bundle.

Cipherr · Mar 1, 2015

DrNeroCF said:
Aren't they more like a code in a cereal box that unlocks extra content in a game?

Sorta. But some people dislike that alot.

"If I paid for the disc, why can I not access everything on it? Why are you back in my pockets repeatedly nickel and diming me for stuff on a cart/disc I have already paid to own?"

Somnid · Mar 1, 2015

Cipherr said:
Nah, its plenty close enough, there are some variables that are different, like you said, they can be sold. But I don't recall anyone that didn't like Day 1 dlc going "I WOULD BE SO FINE WITH THIS IF I COULD RESELL THE CONTENT AFTER IM DONE!"

Right but plenty of people buy Amiibos exactly because they can be resold. In fact many buy them without even owning compatible software.

Draxal · Mar 1, 2015

Ninja Scooter said:
oh is that all you have to do? Borrow another person's Amiibo?

It's DLC but it generally gets a pass because Nintendo has a lot of built up good will with enthusiast gamers. If this were UbiSoft or Activision using $14 toys to lock DLC (even cosmetic or optional stuff like skins) behind a paywall I don't think there'd be anywhere near the same general attitude.

Activision makes Skylanders and Skylanders is pretty brutal with the required usage of multiple skylanders to get to every area in the game.

TheSpoiler · Mar 1, 2015

Cipherr said:
This is not really possible is it. You don't want to remove context. Its a form of day 1 on disc dlc, it should be seen next to all the other various types from all other companies. It doesn't exist in a vacuum and I don't see what good anyone gets from pretending it does.

I guess it depends on who you discuss this with, but I feel like it's an easy out to defend Nintendo's practices with a "it can be worse!".

I mean, I agree with you. It's a case-by-case basis with me as well. But it'll muddy the issue and eventually deviate to what others are doing instead of the topic at hand.

Broritos said:
It's more like a season pass for a decent catalog of current and future games as well as a memory card thing.

Also, it's a cool little figure. Even if amiibos didn't have any video game functionality at all, the figures themselves I think are good enough to be worth the money.

That's hard to equate because I can buy the contents of a season pass separately, which is my biggest issue with this.

Also, good on that guy with the Capcom analogy.

Riposte · Mar 1, 2015

How many arguments made in defense of amiibos and amiibo-restricted content can be applied for DLC (e.g., on-disc DLC, day one DLC)?

Like

"Wouldn't exist without it"

"The game has enough content as it is"

"It's crossover/cameo content"

It would be nice if people could at least be consistent, because it's not like I want to hear more complaining clogging up discussion of games.

moolamb · Mar 1, 2015

Yes, Amiibos are on-disc DLC.

Then again, games are on-disc DLC.

You can define it however you like.

DXB-KNIGHT · Mar 1, 2015

It's pay once unlock everywhere kind of DLC since they are not ties to a specific game

Laconic · Mar 1, 2015

Somnid said:
A virus mutating into a unicorn.

That would entail the concept of a unicorn being changed to encompass something rather decidedly different than, and in fact antithetical to the mythological beast, and all it represents.

But sure.

Why not.

Ninja Scooter · Mar 1, 2015

Draxal said:
Activision makes Skylanders and Skylanders is pretty brutal with the required usage of multiple skylanders to get to every area in the game.

Skylanders revolves around those figures, it's built with them in mind, and even then it's still on disc DLC. I'm talking things like character or weapon skins. Look at how much of a shitstorm there was around Evolve because of day 1 DLC when all of that was just cosmetic stuff.

Usobuko · Mar 1, 2015

It's not even 12.99 as a standard price for a piece of content, it's at least 12.99. This is one of the downside for existing in physical format and severely limited quantity.

Good luck to whoever that wanted the content in retail exclusive Amiibo in future.

Giolon · Mar 1, 2015

TI82 said:
I feel with the use in Mario Party 10 and codename Steam they are.

In Mario Party 10 they are boards yes, but also the (apparently) only way to play classic mode.

In Codename Steam the Fire Emblem amiibos each unlock that character in game.

This seems comparable to when Capcom locked RE5's versus mode out with dlc despite it being on the disc already, as these characters and modes also are.

Edit: so if so, why does it get a pass?

Well, for one, you could always borrow an amiibo from a friend to unlock the content you want for free? They aren't single use.

Plus, even though they cost ~$13 each, so far they work in multiple games meaning that their price per game is $13 / X where X is the number of games they work with. If that keeps up, I really have no problem buying a few here and there. Plus, I collect figures anyway so the prospect of getting small, relatively cheap (for figures) little versions of the Nintendo characters I like, I'm ok with that. Obviously your mileage will vary depending on how much crossover interest you have w/ the games the amiibos support.

Broritos · Mar 1, 2015

TheSpoiler said:
That's hard to equate because I can buy the contents of a season pass separately, which is my biggest issue with this.

Also, good on that guy with the Capcom analogy.

It's a Super Season Pass cuz it covers multiple games. Plus you get a cool little figure.

Oersted · Mar 1, 2015

DXB-KNIGHT said:
It's pay once unlock everywhere kind of DLC since they are not ties to a specific game

Or account. And they are resellable. We need a new word.

Draxal · Mar 1, 2015

Ninja Scooter said:
Skylanders revolves around those figures, it's built with them in mind, and even then it's still on disc DLC. I'm talking things like character or weapon skins. Look at how much of a shitstorm there was around Evolve because of day 1 DLC when all of that was just cosmetic stuff.

I've seen minor grousing over the Link amiibo weapon here, but IIRC there seemed to be ten times more complaints about the retailer exclusive outfits when Hyrule Warriors launched.

I still think Mario Party 10 is where you might see alot of complaints about Amiibo usage.

TSM · Mar 1, 2015

DrNeroCF said:
Aren't they more like a code in a cereal box that unlocks extra content in a game?

As in, you buy a product and get a silly little something extra for it.

Seems like only Smash Bros actually use them for an actual feature, where the physicality of the product is utilized in the functionality.

Unless you actually use your amiibo on multiple systems, their use in smash bros is nothing that you couldn't do with out them. It's a trainable AI that is saved to the figure instead of the console. So you pay $13 a character to unlock custom AI for that particular character.

A Link to the Past · Mar 1, 2015

Yes. Worse than paid DLC in one way, but at least they have some collector utility.

TheSpoiler · Mar 1, 2015

Broritos said:
It's a Super Season Pass cuz it covers multiple games. Plus you get a cool little figure.

But I don't play Zelda games. Hyrule Warriors was the exception

This is a smaller point, but it assumes that each figurine will get sufficient software to follow up, which I would buy a Capt. Falcon and Megaman if that were confirmed.

Giolon said:
Well, for one, you could always borrow an amiibo from a friend to unlock the content you want for free? They aren't single use.

Plus, even though they cost ~$13 each, so far they work in multiple games meaning that their price per game is $13 / X where X is the number of games they work with. If that keeps up, I really have no problem buying a few here and there. Plus, I collect figures anyway so the prospect of getting small, relatively cheap (for figures) little versions of the Nintendo characters I like, I'm ok with that. Obviously your mileage will vary depending on how much crossover interest you have w/ the games the amiibos support.

I don't have any friends with a Zeldia amiibo. That's a terrible excuse.

These things serve the fans very well, and that's something they should keep going with. Just stop interjecting with the people on the other side of the wall here, Nintendo. Offer that DLC for a standard rate and I'll buy it.

billy beane · Mar 1, 2015

I don't care about the extra content, they just look cool.

Nintendo games are usually filled with more than enough content anyways.

MrxDemix · Mar 1, 2015

Yes, but worse.

Mario Party 10 will be a particularly nasty offender.

Laconic · Mar 1, 2015

DXB-KNIGHT said:
It's pay once unlock everywhere kind of DLC since they are not ties to a specific game

So... pay once, get all of the DLC?

Naaaah.

It is "pay for ALL of the figurines that unlock things in the games you want to play."

...or else miss out on content.

re: a really, really, shit-covered-dick move.

Vena · Mar 1, 2015

TheSpoiler said:
Offer that DLC for a standard rate and I'll buy it.

Amiibo cards.

Cipherr · Mar 1, 2015

Vena said:
Amiibo cards.

Yeah, we know those are coming, its still physical though unless they decide to do digital ones also on the e-shop or something, but I doubt it.

I mean, I saw this coming when they put an NFC reader in the controllers. You need physical objects to use that.... So its likely to be cards/toys with no digital equivalent. And its definitely the same thing as on disc day 1 DLC IMO.

A Link to the Past · Mar 1, 2015

I'm going to really hate seeing the first instance of super awesome DLC locked to Amiibo.

Somnid · Mar 1, 2015

Laconic said:
That would entail the concept of a unicorn being changed to encompass something rather decidedly different than, and in fact antithetical to the mythological beast, and all it represents.

But sure.

Why not.

You aren't wrong, but you still missed the point.

SMgamer83 · Mar 1, 2015

Velcro Fly · Mar 1, 2015

For the most part the functionality has been fun but not required stuff. There hasn't been any story DLC tied to these things. It's been fun costume unlocks, training up a fighter in Smash, adding some new thing in Captain Toad, getting items/rupees in Hyrule Warriors, etc.

Hyrule Warriors and Mario Kart already have robust DLC packages. Amiibo is just something cool and extra for people who want it.

I haven't kept up on Mario Party so that might be different.

Broritos · Mar 1, 2015

Oersted said:
Or account. And they are resellable. We need a new word.

This is a very good point. The only true downside I see in amiibos is that there are a limited quantity because they are physical.

Once you buy a piece of DLC, that's it. If someone buys an amiibo simply for DLC purposes, they have the option of reselling it for whatever reason in the future. The value of an amiibo can change simply because it's a physical object but it's value can also change depending on how long Nintendo plans on integrating amiibo's in future games.

Amiibo's arent just DLC or figures, it's some weird mutated combination of both.

TheSpoiler · Mar 1, 2015

silkysmooth said:
For the most part the functionality has been fun but not required stuff. There hasn't been any story DLC tied to these things. It's been fun costume unlocks, training up a fighter in Smash, adding some new thing in Captain Toad, getting items/rupees in Hyrule Warriors, etc.

Hyrule Warriors and Mario Kart already have robust DLC packages. Amiibo is just something cool and extra for people who want it.

I haven't kept up on Mario Party so that might be different.

Can we stop using that excuse? Just because it already has a good amount of DLC doesn't mean one more piece would hurt anything.

To quote myself from the same page:

"Why is this a continuous thing?

"The game already has enough content what's one weapon?"

You see, when you enjoy a game, you kinda want as much as you can get from it! It's an odd concept, but I care because I want that weapon. It's incredibly reductive to exclaim that the game has a bunch of weapons already and that it's just one. It is just one, but that's part of the experience for 12.99.

Or however much those figurines are."

James Scott · Mar 1, 2015

Cipherr said:
So its likely to be cards/toys with no digital equivalent. And its definitely the same thing as on disc day 1 DLC IMO.

except most games dont' have them on the disc nor day 1. At least not yet.

duckroll · Mar 1, 2015

Amiibos are toys and collectibles. They might provide some bonus feature on certain compatible software for addition fun, but if you're buying them just for that, it would be a poor consumer choice. Is some of the content for those games locked away artificially? Sure. But honestly, who gives a shit? It's in line with how products and services are delivered today, just like how there are retailer exclusive DLCs and whatever, most of them cosmetic.

For MGS Peace Walker, they had a tie-up with Uniqlo where any of the PW shirts you bought when they first launched would come with codes on the tags which you could put into the game and unlock that same t-shirt design to use in the game. It's just a fun thing for fans who are buying the shirts anyway. If someone buys the shirts just to get the codes and doesn't even want to wear them, then they're doing it wrong!

Vena · Mar 1, 2015

Cipherr said:
Yeah, we know those are coming, its still physical though unless they decide to do digital ones also on the e-shop or something, but I doubt it.

I mean, I saw this coming when they put an NFC reader in the controllers. You need physical objects to use that.... So its likely to be cards/toys with no digital equivalent. And its definitely the same thing as on disc day 1 DLC IMO.

Can't make it digital as it breaks the whole idea of unlocking/saving with a scan. They are physical because the whole idea is that they are something like toys, toys for games.

But for what to really think of it, I'd defer to Jim's explanation on it. These things exist in a weird zone, they aren't straight DLC or Season Passes as they have a corporeal nature and you are quite literally buying a figure and/or card (the latter lowering/invalidating the whole "overprice DLC" argument). I cannot buy a DLC/Season Pass and then later sell it or even be guaranteed much of anything from it but an Amiibo is a thing, a physical thing. That's what you buy with then added functionality of DLC.

Amiibos are par for the course in today's market. Retail exclusive, pre-order exclusive, whatever DLC. They, at least, sell you a physical good. WoW had this ages ago with the TCG mounts, it was a cool thing for fans and it certainly didn't break the game because I didn't have a spectral tiger mount.

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