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Illusory Revelations #FE speculation/analysis thread

L Thammy

Member
It seems like most of the conversation about this game has been about how far away it is from what people expected and how disappointing the theme is. Meanwhile, there seems to be a lot of details hidden in the trailers of this game, and it seems like the people at Atlus are deliberately keeping tight-lipped about it. I just happen to enjoy speculation, so I was hoping that we could do it here.

The point of this thread is to discuss the gameplay and the story of the game based on the knowledge we have available. That includes the game trailers, along with our knowledge of the Shin Megami Tensei and Fire Emblem series, the Japanese entertainment industry, and anything else that serves as context. You're free to like or dislike the game, but that's not the topic here, so try not to derail the topic with that.

Here's the Gamexplain video for the first trailer. It's a good place to start, though some of its theories are outright confirmed now.

And here's an interview from Venturebeat. They're speaking to the producers: Atlus' Shinjiro Takata and Ninendo's Hitoshi Yagami.
 

L Thammy

Member
Double-posting so as not to distract from the OP. Here are my observations and speculation from another thread. Vecks and kiryogi corrected me on some things when I posted, so I'll include their corrections as well. Thanks!

Regarding the title. The first Persona game was Megami Ibunroku Persona, which was translated as Revelations: Persona. So the title (Genei Ibunroku #FE) seems to be a reference to the first Persona. Only the first Persona and its spinoffs has the Megami Ibunroku label. When most people are comparing this game to Persona, they're comparing it to the third and fourth games. I'm not personally familiar, but going off of CJ Iwakura's article, it seems like there were big changes between the the first two and the later two Persona games. Seems strange that the title would refer to one of the less popular ones, but maybe that's because Atlus couldn't figure out a way to work a reference to the newer ones. kiryogi noted that the first Devil Survivor also has the Megami Ibunroku title.

The "Illusory" part of the title seems to match with the Mirages that the characters summon. If the "Revelations" path does have the apocalyptic implication, then it matches with the post-apocalyptic scene we saw in the first trailer. I'm wondering if there's some actual meaning to that title. Maybe the apocalypse is an illusion, or maybe the fantasy world is some kind of illusion? Maybe a digital world? It fits with how Tiki is a Vocaloid.

Someone on Tumblr translated the song in the first trailer. The lyrics are interesting. Probably not what a lot of people who have seen the trailers expect. You can view the blog for the lyrics themselves, but here is the translation:

I want to destroy
Will you be able to heal me from loneliness, from pain
And all things I had cherished
(Reincarnation, Realization, Reincarnation)
I want to disappear

Sounds of a city that never sleeps, the melancholy of these fake smiles
These real motive hiding, someday, somewhere as we had never seen them
Even if nobody speak about things as insecurity, we know about it

I want to destroy
These courageous acts I had cherished
But then, I won’t be able to be honest
Even if I’m lost or in trouble, if you ever ask me,
At least, I’ll destroy this pain and this loneliness
(Reincarnation, Realization, Reincarnation)
I want to reincarnate

That certainly points to a dramatic story, although not necessarily in the same way as people wanted. The song probably sets the tone for Kiria's character since she's the singer. We also hear it at Kiria's concert in the Treehouse video, which seems to be the start of the plot. So perhaps it sets the tone of the entire game. "Reincarnation" seems to be the title of the song, so it's probably an important concept in the game. I suspect that it's referring to the characters being reborn as the creative person inside. I'm wondering if maybe that concept ties into the Idolosphere, like that world is spawned by people's creativity or maybe their inhibitions.

Onto the game mechanics. Looking at the character select screen, you've got Strength, Magic Strength, Dexterity, Speed, Defense, and Magic Defense. Stats growth appears to be random like Fire Emblem. Pretty standard RPG fare, doesn't seem to be drawn entirely from either series. There's another thing below those stats though. Instead of being a number, it's one of five words. It's not class or element, since those are represented elsewhere. According to Vecks, that's the Luck stat, and the five words range from worst to best. In both Shin Megami Tensei and Fire Emblem, luck is a numerical score like any other stat. Why is it different here?

In case you want to examine the stat screen:
vlcsnap-00002ieldf.png

Mirages have their own slot beside the player and what appears to be an experience bar. Does the fact that they have their own slot suggest that you can switch them out? Their experience bar doesn't go up after battles, but I think that's because the Treehouse demo has them maxed. The Treehouse people mention at one point that they're stronger than normal or something along those lines. And if you look at the top right outside of battle, you see Chrom's face with "enemy info". So presumably it's an unlockable ability for Chrom, but they wanted to show off the elemental system. Since there's only one displayed on screen despite every character having a Mirage, perhaps you can only have one active ability.

If it ends up that Mirages can be switched out, then there might be demon fusion and stuff like that. But I think it might actually be possible to include permadeath for Mirages, too. I mean, if you have spares and most of them aren't important to the plot, why not?

Probably doesn't need to be said, but it looks like the weaknesses generally do work the same as Fire Emblem. For example, Pegasus Knight is weak to bow and wind magic, but resists dark. So it should be a lot easier to predict an enemy's weakness at a glance than in Shin Megami Tensei IV.

It should also be noted that every enemy also has a class. It's visible when they're being targeted in battle. We see what appears to be a thief or trickster as well as a cavalier. We also see some monsters with a generic monster class icon. The enemies with a non-generic class seen in the trailer have weaknesses that match up to the weapon they seem to be using, and the weapon they use matches up to their class. One of the generic monsters seems to be using axes as well.

It's not a total match, however. Gangrel has a weakness to lances, which matches with his class, but he doesn't resist axes as other sword-wielding characters do. The other thief enemy has a both the weakness and the resistance. The catgirl (?) enemy is weak to both swords and axes, and is carrying what looks more like a hammer than anything. The trolls resist swords and lances and don't seem to have a weapon.

Regarding the overworld. This was probably clear, but it's interesting that the implementation differs slightly from Shin Megami Tensei IV since attacking an enemy doesn't trigger the battle. It was mentioned by the Treehouse people that you can escape from an enemy after stunning them, but I suspect there's also a little extra risk now. An enemy can sneak up on you while you're trying to get a sneak attack on another one.

In battle, there's a "tactics" option which is separate from the "skills" option in the battle menu. My first thought is that it would just collect miscellaneous rarely-used options like guard or escape, but those are on the wheel too. I don't think it was shown off in the Treehouse presentation. Only Itsuki seems to have it. Instead, other characters have a "change" icon, which shows two characters with arrows in between. I guess that's to change turn order?

Whenever the session attack list pops up, you can see that it has three fields: holder, name, and risk. Holder shows the characters who are participating in the combo. Name shows the skills that they're using. What's risk? It wasn't mentioned in the demo either. Unless I missed it, there's never anything to the right of the skill name. I guess it's a game mechanic that only appears later on. The name suggests some kind of penalty. Here's a screenshot if you want to look for yourself:

There's autobattle if anyone cares. It's not on the wheel though, it's on the bottom right part of the screen. Maybe the tactics option is to set AI routines. Oh, and you can see from the save menu that the demo is being played at normal difficulty. So obviously there must be multiple difficulty modes.

There's a poster with an electric superhero guy seen in a few places in the early game. Look at these screenshots. I suspect that it's the tokusatsu franchise that Toma wants to act in. I think that Eleonora, the blonde girl, can be seen in an early poster too. You can see them in the screenshots below. The Eleonora poster's on the top right of the first screenshot.

The villains in the red cloaks are probably just a reference to how Fire Emblem represents enemies with red. Notice how Itsuki and Tsubasa both have blue hair like Fire Emblem heroes, and Itsuki also wears a blue jacket. Itsuki's last name even means "blue". But the red cloaks also remind me of the Shaman class from the GBA Fire Emblem games, as well as the Ring of Gaea cultists from Shin Megami Tensei IV.

I can't help but point out that when Shibuya is invaded by the Idolosphere, it doesn't look anything like that apocalyptic scene from the first trailer. There's no physical damage to the area. I'm wondering if there's another threat that comes up later. The beings from the Idolosphere being Mirages, I wonder if they're aren't actually illusions, unable to affect the physical world. It would fit with the "Illusory" in the title. Then there could be something else that causes the physical damage to Tokyo.

When they load the second save file, you can see that Itsuki's wearing different clothes. They're still casual clothes though. Maybe your characters change costumes as the game goes on, maybe there are costume options of some sort. His clothes also seem to change colour when he's in the dungeon, most notably his pants, but that's probably a quirk of the lighting. Here's a comparison:

You can see some clothing changes elsewhere as well. Before the boss fight with Gangrel, Tsubasa is wearing a bikini (spotted by shadow2810) . In the first trailer, we also saw her fighting in her brown school uniform. Her official art shows her wearing that uniform, but she doesn't wear it at all in the Treehouse video or the second trailer. Touma is briefly seen in a green jacket instead of his brown one in the first trailer. And the costume from Kiria's official art hasn't been seen in-game.

Some parts of the Shibuya 109 dungeon has a gothic lolita vibe to me. The antique fences and such. The music's a bit on the creepy side. I'm wondering if it's just this one dungeon that has that atmosphere. Are the dungeons in Persona meant to be unnerving? As an aside, each of the different floors of the dungeon actually has a different floor design. It's a neat little detail.

Some more details that might be missed. Chrom has the Falchion, but he only uses it for his dual attack. The explosion that appears behind Toma after he transforms is totally a Super Sentai thing. And those silhouettes that are always walking around are often carrying things that suggest having varied ages. Some have suitcases, others have backpacks, and a few have purses.
 
I've been waiting for a thread like this to pop up.

This should also be mentioned:
Yamagami and Takada also explained why the game is so heavy on Japanese pop idol culture and why so many characters are shown singing.

"This is why the characters are all entertainers: in Japan, similar to Greek mythology, there's the idea of the gods being connected to the arts," Takada said. "It's a shamanistic element that's been interpreted by Atlus. The idea is, Japanese priestesses would dance and the dancing would bring them closer to the gods. We wanted to spin this in an Atlus way, so all the characters in the game have some connection to the arts, and that connection and their ability to express themselves attracts the Mirages to them. People who are good at singing or dancing or acting have really strong bonds with Mirages."

It adds an interesting angle to the idol stuff.
Source
 

Pizza

Member
I've been waiting for this thread! :D

All sorts of rad details are in the trailers, and I also like that the fusion of the protagonists to create their preformas is part persona (fusing) and fire emblem (pairing up to cover each other's weaknesses, some characters that are close will offer large stat boosts while also assisting direcly with battle)

And, considering "the" fire emblem is a tangible thing, and reflected in the student's uniform, this cooooould be a version of modern-day Tokyo that exists way after fire emblem's Canon, or alongside a version of fire emblem awakening that became the idolosphere somehow.

Who knows!
 
Nice write up!

Personally, I'm hoping this turns out to be well. I love the look, and the combat looks solid, but honestly it doesn't look like it's doing anything special.

Hopefully it will be filled with surprises gameplay and storywise. If it really is just Persona with Fire Emblem characters, I'll be fine. That being said if it manages to do something that makes me go "Oh man, that's a great way to implement Fire Emblem mechanics!" I'll be elated.
 
I want to destroy
Will you be able to heal me from loneliness, from pain
And all things I had cherished
(Reincarnation, Realization, Reincarnation)
I want to disappear

Sounds of a city that never sleeps, the melancholy of these fake smiles
These real motive hiding, someday, somewhere as we had never seen them
Even if nobody speak about things as insecurity, we know about it

I want to destroy
These courageous acts I had cherished
But then, I won’t be able to be honest
Even if I’m lost or in trouble, if you ever ask me,
At least, I’ll destroy this pain and this loneliness
(Reincarnation, Realization, Reincarnation)
I want to reincarnate

"Being your true self", accepting your feelings, insecurities and such as the basis of the concept of Persona and Shadows in the games, those based on Jungian psychology.

The lyrics of the song in the OP reference the use of masks to confront hardships. It's really easy to notice: The character faces a lot of hardships and even then, she feels alone, but they use their "artificial" facade (Tokusatsu hero, Idol) to face their problems.

And then:

Sounds of a city that never sleeps, the melancholy of these fake smiles
These real motive hiding, someday, somewhere as we had never seen them
Even if nobody speak about things as insecurity, we know about it

Fake smiles. We wear our masks to deal with hardships, but the problems and insecurities are still there, behind them.

While the title references Persona (1), the theme of masks is way more prominent in Persona 4, so I'd say it's going to be more similar to Persona 3/4 in the themes than to Persona 1/2.
 

rhandino

Banned
o_O what a nice write-up, let me suscribe =D

Would like to add a little bit, during the last moments of the last trailer we get a very brief look of all the playable characters announced so far with their Performa looks... except this one:

dZLyCY6.png


People in the last thread were speculating that it could one of the same characters just with another look which seems unlikely because how the sequence played out or maybe a new playable characters still not revealed.

Oh! also would like to ask if anyone knows if someone has translated the names of the enemies showed so far? Since the Mirage are based on the Fire Emblem characters I thought that maybe the enemies could be related to the generic classes or other characters like Aversa or Gangrel.
 
I've been waiting for a thread like this to pop up.

This should also be mentioned:


It adds an interesting angle to the idol stuff.
Source

"Being your true self", accepting your feelings, insecurities and such as the basis of the concept of Persona and Shadows in the games, those based on Jungian psychology.

The lyrics of the song in the OP reference the use of masks to confront hardships. It's really easy to notice: The character faces a lot of hardships and even then, she feels alone, but they use their "artificial" facade (Tokusatsu hero, Idol) to face their problems.

And then:



Fake smiles. We wear our masks to deal with hardships, but the problems and insecurities are still there, behind them.

While the title references Persona (1), the theme of masks is way more prominent in Persona 4, so I'd say it's going to be more similar to Persona 3/4 in the themes than to Persona 1/2.

The themes they're using in this game sound awesome!!!
 

L Thammy

Member
"Being your true self", accepting your feelings, insecurities and such as the basis of the concept of Persona and Shadows in the games, those based on Jungian psychology.

Can't read the whole thing right now, but I just wanted to say that this is sort of post I was hoping to see. Thanks!

Oh! also would like to ask if anyone knows if someone has translated the names of the enemies showed so far? Since the Mirage are based on the Fire Emblem characters I thought that maybe the enemies could be related to the generic classes or other characters like Aversa or Gangrel.

The trolls were mentioned in the Treehouse video. There's also the thief/trickster monster, which has assassin in its name if I remember correctly. I can't read kanji, but it looks like it's something's assassin or assassin of something. I think the enemy that looks like a catgirl has "sister" in its name.
 
I wonder how many members are going to be in the game? Are they just going to limit it to 5 or 6 like in SMT or go all out like in FE? It would be also interesting to see class changes too.
 

Hugstable

Banned
subbing, can't wait to see what other characters we get, plus I feel like the game may have classes and class changing with that alter? Hope so, that'd be cool :D

I'm new to this series, what should I expect?

Nothing because it is it's own series. Expect RPG fighting, idols, and hopefully interesting dungeons filled with puzzles and traps!
 

Kouriozan

Member
This thread is really interesting, thanks (and subbed)
Never played a Persona game but this one really makes me want to.
 

L Thammy

Member
I wonder how many members are going to be in the game? Are they just going to limit it to 5 or 6 like in SMT or go all out like in FE? It would be also interesting to see class changes too.

Maybe 8-10? We already know 6 player characters, so I don't think it's based off classic SMT in that way. In the IGN demo, it was mentioned that the player characters unlock their tag attacks when you clear their optional side stories. If the party was as big as Fire Emblem, that would mean 40-50 sidequests, which seems kind of ridiculous.

I think it's more likely that the party size is around the size of Persona, but you collect a large number of Mirages that you can switch around.
 
I wonder how many members are going to be in the game? Are they just going to limit it to 5 or 6 like in SMT or go all out like in FE? It would be also interesting to see class changes too.

I'd agree that there'll probably be somewhere between 6 to 10 characters. If you look at the second trailer you can see about 7 or 8 different mirages. Speaking of these mirages, has there been any kind of analysis on these shadowed put figures? Seems likely that the back middle is a general and the back left is a cleric with a staff.

I honestly can't wait for this game. It looks like it'll be a very fun, upbeat kind of game. Those kinds of games are usually bad gameplay wise
(looking at you, Neptunia)
, but this will almost definitely be good knowing the people working on it.
 

Voliko

Member
Has there been any indication of Devil Survivor/Growlanser's trademark abundant dialogue choices? Haven't watched any of the Treehouse stuff.
 

rhandino

Banned
I'd agree that there'll probably be somewhere between 6 to 10 characters. If you look at the second trailer you can see about 7 or 8 different mirages. Speaking of these mirages, has there been any kind of analysis on these shadowed put figures? Seems likely that the back middle is a general and the back left is a cleric with a staff.
waiT, your are right... let me put them here too!


I see 3 more... one of them must be for Eleonora (maybe the one at the right) and the big one in the middle could very well be the Mirage for the goldie one...

Also, in that same trailer we got this:

1vtvruu.jpg


Now, this is just for the color of the armor but I think that this could be Abel...

=======================

Has there been any indication of Devil Survivor/Growlanser's trademark abundant dialogue choices? Haven't watched any of the Treehouse stuff.
It's here too! During the stream they showed a scene where you can choose how to respond to Tsubasa when she ask you for encouragement =D

PGOdC7J.jpg
 

rhandino

Banned
In your second image, the helmet for the general kinda looks black and red... Maybe the Black Knight? That would be cool.
T_T my poor heart...

qPGonlF.png


Also the one of the left seems to be a female figure holding a staff so maybe that's Kiria mirage while the one of the left could be the one that Eleonora receives...

EDIT: Oh wait, we already have a tiny look at Eleonora mirage during the results screen in the last minute of the Treehouse stream:

f9isdFj.jpg
 

-Horizon-

Member
I never noticed the subcast bit on the result screen lol

I wonder how many people you can have along with you and if they can all have a unique assist attack with each other. Since Eleanora had one with Tsubasa and Toma.

Yeah, Playstation TV.
Will switch for the HDMI Vita that was rumored last month if it exist.
This is a thing?
 

Pizza

Member
Thanks! Hmmm, only 2 choices. I'm hopeful but wary.

Iirc in this case the character was expressing her excitement over the performance you two just watched and was asking if you loved it or if she should try and be a pop singer or something, I think it was a relatively yes/no question
 

L Thammy

Member
If there are other characters, what part of idol culture would they represent that haven't been covered? We have a rookie singer, a veteran singer, an actress, and a tokusatsu actor. We have a Vocaloid and a former gravure model as supporting characters. Maybe we could have a manzai comedian? They could do a short sketch for their tag attack.


The helmet on the middle guy is shaped like the Black Knight's. And he's got the big shoulders. If you look at the first image, there's a blue splotch in front of them. I can't tell if that's the lighting or something else.

Horns on the rightmost silhouette in the second picture reminds of me Walhart.
 

L Thammy

Member
Tried to find more evidence of alternate costumes and other Mirages. There are actually a ton of costumes. Notably, there are also a lot of shots showing characters in battle when they're not in their fused forms. Screenshots below.


I think rhandino might be right about this enemy being Abel. It's very clearly a cavalier, anyway.

 

rhandino

Banned
Tried to find more evidence of alternate costumes and other Mirages. There are actually a ton of costumes. Notably, there are also a lot of shots showing characters in battle when they're not in their fused forms. Screenshots below.
All those costumes =D

I think rhandino might be right about this enemy being Abel. It's very clearly a cavalier, anyway.
Yeah =D

But you know, something about him bothered me a lot and I think that I know why!

Looking at the trailers again I noticed that Abel(?) and that big guy have this weird triangle chains(?) around them:

ybNqzQn.jpg
xTMpdbU.jpg


Also, the members that invade Shibuya after Kiria concert have them around their bodies:

xlhktIR.jpg


or head in the case of the person similar to Tsubasa sister:

hoLnvfg.jpg


I think that they could be some kind of shackles or restrains that make them work against the Mirage Masters or maybe a symbol of corruption(?) because in the very first trailer we can se Aoki kind of purifying one Mirage that I assume is Chrom:

AzHEEd5.jpg


XPA9GOM.jpg


RJX6t7S.jpg


Now, this could mean that you gain Mirage by "cleansing" or "liberating" them from the pseudo Cult of Gaea that have them under their control or from some form of contamination (maybe provoked by the negative emotions of the real world).
 

L Thammy

Member
Looking at the trailers again I noticed that Abel(?) and that big guy have this weird triangle chains(?) around them:

...

I think that they could be some kind of shackles or restrains that make them work against the Mirage Masters or maybe a symbol of corruption(?) because in the very first trailer we can se Aoki kind of purifying one Mirage that I assume is Chrom:

...

Now, this could mean that you gain Mirage by "cleansing" or "liberating" them from the pseudo Cult of Gaea that have them under their control or from some form of contamination (maybe provoked by the negative emotions of the real world).

Really interesting find.

There's always the possibility that it's just a visual motif with no real significance. Regular enemies appear in cultist form outside of battle, and it looks like they have some triangles around them. But the ones you posted seem to be the only ones that have them during battle. None of the regular enemies do, nor do Gangrel or Aversa. So I do think it's something notable.

If these characters are significant, I think it's possible that some Mirages or party members might be unlocked by beating them. They might just be important NPCs though. Like, maybe you'd have some "episodes" centering around a certain NPC. I haven't played Persona myself, does it work like that?

What I'm really wondering is how chained and unchained Mirages are different. Gangrel's a boss, so he's presumably important too. Why doesn't he have chains? I think the implication is that only Mirages with the chains can be purified. Moreover, I think it's possible that there are two kinds of Mirages. Besides the pure Mirages, I think humans can be maliciously transformed into them. You have the chains around Tsubasa's sister, so I think that's what happened to her. And the giant armour has a human head on top of his helmet, so I think he's been transformed from a human as well.

Following from this line of thought. If the human-turned Mirages appear with the chains on them, what does it mean if Abel and Chrom have also appeared with the chains? Were they originally humans that were transformed into Mirages as well? It makes sense. Even visually, a lot of the enemy Mirages appear to the monsters or robots, whereas the Fire Emblem characters look more like cyborgs or ghouls. Could it be possible that the Fire Emblem world was already destroyed by the Mirages?

I think there was an interview or something that said that the Shin Megami Tensei influence would be seen later, or somthing like that. I think it's possible that there's a third world, perhaps one that successfully invaded the Fire Emblem world and invades the real world later in the game.

EDIT:

Another image of the giant armour. You can see how it (probably) used to be human.

 

L Thammy

Member
Well, there's another relevant detail in that interview.

According to the developers, if a character is a villain in the Fire Emblem game it’s from, it will also be a villain in Genei Ibun Roku #FE (which will certainly paves the way for interesting turn of events during the main story).

But Abel appears to be a villain here. I think it's related to what you said before, and he becomes a hero again when his chains are broken.




Going to post some stuff from GameFAQs. It's based on the first trailer, so it might be slightly outdated, but hey. This person was posting this in the N64DD board for some reason.

 

Jiraiza

Member
Absolutely love the entertainment industry motif Atlus is going with for this series. Was there information on what the MC wants to be?
 

Aostia

El Capitan Todd
sorry for the bump, but I can't find a more recent topic nor I am sure if these are indeed new and thread worthy:

img_toma.png

img_chrom.jpg

img_sheeda.jpg



lovely artworks I didn't see before.
 

maxcriden

Member
Was this new "greeting card" infodump posted? :)

Here is my late-summer greeting card.

I’m meeting you for the first time. I’m Fumitaka Yano, and I work as an art director at Atlus.

This time I’m going to discuss things that are related to art.

Nintendo and Atlus are developing #FE together. Also everything isn’t done in-house, as many people are cooperating on the project.

TONS more @ the link, incl. art (I think it's the art Aostia posted above):

http://nintendoeverything.com/genei-ibun-roku-fe-staff-on-the-mirage-designs/
 
Was this new "greeting card" infodump posted? :)



TONS more @ the link, incl. art (I think it's the art Aostia posted above):

http://nintendoeverything.com/genei-ibun-roku-fe-staff-on-the-mirage-designs/

Looks like he got promoted. His previous works were on The Last Remnant, Final Fantasy XIII and Shin Megami Tensei IV as a character modeler. This will be his first work as Art Director. Makes me wonder if he's taken over from Kazuma Kaneko...I sure as hell hope not, since this game has a crap art style.
 

FluxWaveZ

Member
Looks like he got promoted. His previous works were on The Last Remnant, Final Fantasy XIII and Shin Megami Tensei IV as a character modeler. This will be his first work as Art Director. Makes me wonder if he's taken over from Kazuma Kaneko...I sure as hell hope not, since this game has a crap art style.

Kaneko was never involved with this project anyways. Team Maniax is doing something else.
 
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