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NY Times: "Sorry, Vegans: Brussels Sprouts Like to Live, Too"

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VALIS

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Thought it would make a good debate topic.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/22/science/22angi.html?_r=2&8dpc

I stopped eating pork about eight years ago, after a scientist happened to mention that the animal whose teeth most closely resemble our own is the pig. Unable to shake the image of a perky little pig flashing me a brilliant George Clooney smile, I decided it was easier to forgo the Christmas ham. A couple of years later, I gave up on all mammalian meat, period. I still eat fish and poultry, however and pour eggnog in my coffee. My dietary decisions are arbitrary and inconsistent, and when friends ask why I’m willing to try the duck but not the lamb, I don’t have a good answer. Food choices are often like that: difficult to articulate yet strongly held. And lately, debates over food choices have flared with particular vehemence.

In his new book, “Eating Animals,” the novelist Jonathan Safran Foer describes his gradual transformation from omnivorous, oblivious slacker who “waffled among any number of diets” to “committed vegetarian.” Last month, Gary Steiner, a philosopher at Bucknell University, argued on the Op-Ed page of The New York Times that people should strive to be “strict ethical vegans” like himself, avoiding all products derived from animals, including wool and silk. Killing animals for human food and finery is nothing less than “outright murder,” he said, Isaac Bashevis Singer’s “eternal Treblinka.”

But before we cede the entire moral penthouse to “committed vegetarians” and “strong ethical vegans,” we might consider that plants no more aspire to being stir-fried in a wok than a hog aspires to being peppercorn-studded in my Christmas clay pot. This is not meant as a trite argument or a chuckled aside. Plants are lively and seek to keep it that way. The more that scientists learn about the complexity of plants — their keen sensitivity to the environment, the speed with which they react to changes in the environment, and the extraordinary number of tricks that plants will rally to fight off attackers and solicit help from afar — the more impressed researchers become, and the less easily we can dismiss plants as so much fiberfill backdrop, passive sunlight collectors on which deer, antelope and vegans can conveniently graze. It’s time for a green revolution, a reseeding of our stubborn animal minds.

When plant biologists speak of their subjects, they use active verbs and vivid images. Plants “forage” for resources like light and soil nutrients and “anticipate” rough spots and opportunities. By analyzing the ratio of red light and far red light falling on their leaves, for example, they can sense the presence of other chlorophyllated competitors nearby and try to grow the other way. Their roots ride the underground “rhizosphere” and engage in cross-cultural and microbial trade.

“Plants are not static or silly,” said Monika Hilker of the Institute of Biology at the Free University of Berlin. “They respond to tactile cues, they recognize different wavelengths of light, they listen to chemical signals, they can even talk” through chemical signals. Touch, sight, hearing, speech. “These are sensory modalities and abilities we normally think of as only being in animals,” Dr. Hilker said.

Plants can’t run away from a threat but they can stand their ground. “They are very good at avoiding getting eaten,” said Linda Walling of the University of California, Riverside. “It’s an unusual situation where insects can overcome those defenses.” At the smallest nip to its leaves, specialized cells on the plant’s surface release chemicals to irritate the predator or sticky goo to entrap it. Genes in the plant’s DNA are activated to wage systemwide chemical warfare, the plant’s version of an immune response. We need terpenes, alkaloids, phenolics — let’s move.

“I’m amazed at how fast some of these things happen,” said Consuelo M. De Moraes of Pennsylvania State University. Dr. De Moraes and her colleagues did labeling experiments to clock a plant’s systemic response time and found that, in less than 20 minutes from the moment the caterpillar had begun feeding on its leaves, the plant had plucked carbon from the air and forged defensive compounds from scratch.

Just because we humans can’t hear them doesn’t mean plants don’t howl. Some of the compounds that plants generate in response to insect mastication — their feedback, you might say — are volatile chemicals that serve as cries for help. Such airborne alarm calls have been shown to attract both large predatory insects like dragon flies, which delight in caterpillar meat, and tiny parasitic insects, which can infect a caterpillar and destroy it from within.

Enemies of the plant’s enemies are not the only ones to tune into the emergency broadcast. “Some of these cues, some of these volatiles that are released when a focal plant is damaged,” said Richard Karban of the University of California, Davis, “cause other plants of the same species, or even of another species, to likewise become more resistant to herbivores.”

Yes, it’s best to nip trouble in the bud.

Dr. Hilker and her colleagues, as well as other research teams, have found that certain plants can sense when insect eggs have been deposited on their leaves and will act immediately to rid themselves of the incubating menace. They may sprout carpets of tumorlike neoplasms to knock the eggs off, or secrete ovicides to kill them, or sound the S O S. Reporting in The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Dr. Hilker and her coworkers determined that when a female cabbage butterfly lays her eggs on a brussels sprout plant and attaches her treasures to the leaves with tiny dabs of glue, the vigilant vegetable detects the presence of a simple additive in the glue, benzyl cyanide. Cued by the additive, the plant swiftly alters the chemistry of its leaf surface to beckon female parasitic wasps. Spying the anchored bounty, the female wasps in turn inject their eggs inside, the gestating wasps feed on the gestating butterflies, and the plant’s problem is solved.

Here’s the lurid Edgar Allan Poetry of it: that benzyl cyanide tip-off had been donated to the female butterfly by the male during mating. “It’s an anti-aphrodisiac pheromone, so that the female wouldn’t mate anymore,” Dr. Hilker said. “The male is trying to ensure his paternity, but he ends up endangering his own offspring.”

Plants eavesdrop on one another benignly and malignly. As they described in Science and other journals, Dr. De Moraes and her colleagues have discovered that seedlings of the dodder plant, a parasitic weed related to morning glory, can detect volatile chemicals released by potential host plants like the tomato. The young dodder then grows inexorably toward the host, until it can encircle the victim’s stem and begin sucking the life phloem right out of it. The parasite can even distinguish between the scents of healthier and weaker tomato plants and then head for the hale one.

“Even if you have quite a bit of knowledge about plants,” Dr. De Moraes said, “it’s still surprising to see how sophisticated they can be.”

It’s a small daily tragedy that we animals must kill to stay alive. Plants are the ethical autotrophs here, the ones that wrest their meals from the sun. Don’t expect them to boast: they’re too busy fighting to survive.
 
attract both large predatory insects like dragon flies, which delight in caterpillar meat, and tiny parasitic insects, which can infect a caterpillar and destroy it from within.
thats pretty bad ass
 
Hah, suck it vegans and vegetarians. Plants feel pain too!
 
2cn6ooz.gif
 
I was reading somewhere that when harvesting grain / corn and such, tons of little animals get killed in the process by the bid machines that do the harvesting. We're talking rabbits and other critters like that.

I understand scale and all that. I also understand that by eating meat the whole purpose is killing a cow while the rabbits death is accidental and not planned. I still find the whole not eating meat because an animal died thing to be rather silly at best. IMO of course. I'll eat Baby cow and not even blink. :D
 
So basically, it looks like the only thing that you can eat and not feel sorry about is eggs. Eggs don't feel pain because they're not alive in and of themselves.
 
T Dawg said:
So basically, it looks like the only thing that you can eat and not feel sorry about is eggs. Eggs don't feel pain because they're not alive in and of themselves.

Eggs can come from poorly treated chickens. Eat nothing.
 
T Dawg said:
So basically, it looks like the only thing that you can eat and not feel sorry about is eggs. Eggs don't feel pain because they're not alive in and of themselves.
You're eating a chicken's period though.

speculawyer said:
Yes, evolution is amazing.

But, no, plants don't have a nervous system & brain. They are not sentient.

This article is stupid.
Yeah, it's glorified stimulus-response. Even single celled organisms do it.
 
T Dawg said:
So basically, it looks like the only thing that you can eat and not feel sorry about is eggs. Eggs don't feel pain because they're not alive in and of themselves.

You're supporting forced chicken abortions! Life begins at conception!
 
pizzaguysrevenge said:
It's easier to just eat everything.

Maybe, but being a vegetarian has really help me with my menu reading times. I'm no longer the asshole who keeps shooing the waitress away because I still don't know what I want!

Unless it's a vegan restaurant.
 
There's nothing strictly unethical about eating a chickens period.

Saying 'but the chicken might have been treated poorly' doesn't work as a reason not to eat eggs. If you eat the egg of a well treated chicken, there is nothing at all wrong with that. You're hurting no-one. The chicken doesn't care because it doesn't have that level of concious thought.
 
When I was a boy, we ate frog. And when there was no frog, we ate crawdads. And when there was no crawdads to be found, we ate sand.
 
T Dawg said:
There's nothing strictly unethical about eating a chickens period.

Saying 'but the chicken might have been treated poorly' doesn't work as a reason not to eat eggs. If you eat the egg of a well treated chicken, there is nothing at all wrong with that. You're hurting no-one. The chicken doesn't care because it doesn't have that level of concious thought.

ITT we discuss philosophy of mind. Let's define personhood! YAY!
 
I stopped eating pork about eight years ago, after a scientist happened to mention that the animal whose teeth most closely resemble our own is the pig. Unable to shake the image of a perky little pig flashing me a brilliant George Clooney smile, I decided it was easier to forgo the Christmas ham.
:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
What is wrong with you?
 
BFG: I can hear plants and trees.

SOPHIE: Do they talk?

BFG: They is not exactly talking. But they is making noises. For instance, if I come along and I is picking a lovely flower, if I is twisting the stem of the flower till it breaks, then the plant is screaming. I can hear it screaming, very clear.

SOPHIE: How awful!

BFG: It is the same with trees as with flowers. If I is chopping an axe into the trunk of a big tree, I is hearing a terrible sound coming from inside the heart of the tree.

SOPHIE: What sort of sound?

BFG: A soft moaning sound. It is like the sound an old man is making when he is dying slowly.

SOPHIE: (skeptically again) Is that really true?

BFG: (offended again) You think I is swizzfiggling you?

SOPHIE: It is rather hard to believe!

BFG.
 
T Dawg said:
There's nothing strictly unethical about eating a chickens period.

Saying 'but the chicken might have been treated poorly' doesn't work as a reason not to eat eggs. If you eat the egg of a well treated chicken, there is nothing at all wrong with that. You're hurting no-one. The chicken doesn't care because it doesn't have that level of concious thought.

It works just fine if that's where you get your eggs.
 
gerg said:
ITT we discuss philosophy of mind. Let's define personhood! YAY!


Brussel sprouts have more 'life' in them than an egg. An egg is a collection of cells, not an organism in it's own right.


Speaking of, why the fuck don't some vegans drink milk or have dairy products? Drinking a cows milk doesn't hurt the cow - so is it the practise of milk farms they don't like? Would they drink milk if they milked the cow itself or they lived on an old school dairy farm like the one in Inglourious Basterds?
 
Freedom = $1.05 said:
Maybe, but being a vegetarian has really help me with my menu reading times. I'm no longer the asshole who keeps shooing the waitress away because I still don't know what I want!

Unless it's a vegan restaurant.
Now you're the guy who askes the waitress "Is the soup made with chicken stock?"

Jerk.

:lol
 
T Dawg said:
Brussel sprouts have more 'life' in them than an egg. An egg is a collection of cells, not an organism in it's own right.

I wasn't debating that.

However, neither did the whole of your post concern (or seem to concern) the ethical nature of eating eggs.

But don't worry. If you couldn't tell from the sarcastic nature of my original post, discussing philosophy of mind again isn't what I most feel like doing at the moment. :lol Although that's no reason for me to jump on you, so sorry.

Geek said:
This is why there's another level, Fruitarianism.

But all vegetables (and some nuts, iirc) are fruit... o_O
 
monchi-kun said:
or worse...they can become magicians and turn you into one of them

forteggplants.gif
I believe the preferred magical occupation for eggplants is Wizard. An Eggplant Magician, how absurd. :D
 
T Dawg said:
Speaking of, why the fuck don't some vegans drink milk or have dairy products? Drinking a cows milk doesn't hurt the cow - so is it the practise of milk farms they don't like? Would they drink milk if they milked the cow itself or they lived on an old school dairy farm like the one in Inglourious Basterds?
Generally, it's the conditions in which livestock are often forced to endure that many vegans have a problem with, the main reason why dairy is off the list. Same with eggs, which aren't "alive."

In some cases, it's simply a belief that animals shouldn't be used for such purposes, whether it's cows pumped for milk, lambs sheered for their wool, bees farmed for honey, or wildlife used for entertainment in circuses.

gerg said:
But all vegetables (and some nuts, iirc) are fruit... o_O
How do you figure?
 
danielijohnson said:
Now you're the guy who askes the waitress "Is the soup made with chicken stock?"

Jerk.

:lol

You would've loved to have seen my mother's face when I gave back half a dozen vegetable soup cans she bought me. She couldn't wrap her head around the the fact that it had beef stock in it :lol
 
This article is stupid because it conflates "urge to survive"--which all living organisms have and "sentience"--which only higher order organisms have. When deciding our diet, there's clearly a continuum from "don't give a fuck" to "would not eat because the implications scare me" and it's pretty clear that wherever you draw the line, plants are going to fall on the left side.

Fenderputty said:
I was reading somewhere that when harvesting grain / corn and such, tons of little animals get killed in the process by the bid machines that do the harvesting. We're talking rabbits and other critters like that.

This is sort of silly because anyone--literally anyone--who is a vegetarian or vegan prefers small machinery family farming to factory farming. The reason bazillions of gophers get killed during farm harvesting is because we use huge fucking machines to do it and we don't really make any effort to minimize collateral damage to small animals. At best, the argument is comparable to the idea that fisheries bycatch makes eating fish a greater moral ill than eating specifically farmed animals--it's not at all comparable to the overall idea of moral vegetarianism.


It's also odd that the author cites Eating Animals. It's an excellent book and a breezy read (Foer is a novelist by trade rather than a nonfiction writer) and actually focuses more on the moral ills of factory farming (the author concludes that factory chicken farming probably causes more suffering than other kinds of farming) rather than making a case for vegetarianism in general. Foer, as I understand it, is a vegetarian rather than a vegan. As this Goldberg interview points out, Foer also doesn't really have a problem with family farming or farming where animals are not treated cruelly. So it's strange to invoke him as a setup to demolish the idea that vegetarianism has a moral high ground; Foers morality seems pretty sensible to me, anyway.

FYI I am an omnivore who lives in a region whose economy was built on fishing. Also I'd like to extend a heartfelt congratulations to the OT on T Dawg finally losing thread posting privileges.
 
The way I look at it, is that plants are biological machines. Everything they do in response to something else, they do 100% of the time. It is a programmed system of responses. There is no will, no awareness. No more than a motion sensor that turns on an outdoor light is "alive." Stimulus, response.

So what if they're made of cells. Biology isn't special. I swallow a million of my own cells every single day. Omnomonm.
 
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