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Wow, the explanation for Quiet's "lack of clothes" is ridiculous

You know, I'd never seen Paz as being sexualised in TPP because, well, she was in an infirmary. I don't know, I think my reaction during every interaction with Paz was "what?" and the sexual nature, if any, never really crossed my mind.

As for Quiet, the reasoning for her clothing is ridiculous and her appearance could be so much more, but her character turns out to be the most interesting, her story the most emotional. I think her arc brought more to the game than any other character.
 

Blobbers

Member
A lot of things throughout the entire franchise have ridiculous explanations. The "ashamed of your words and deeds" comment is funny though
 

Painguy

Member
Nah, woman can't be naked in game, is bad, let's rioooooottttttt....

This is more sexist than make a character naked, come on people, we play a game whit a full nude guy...

maxresdefault.jpg


Let's all get naked, and have some funnnnnnn...

Naked-Raiden-Cartwheel-MGS2.jpg


Weeeeyyyyyyyyy....

MGS is all about this, FUN, god, people who can't see fun in other naked people, based on gender, has problems...

The cloth of a character, don't define it...Just like a REAL person, think about that...

Love to u all! =*

This right here
 
I love me a nude raiden ,who doesnt, but quiet was criiiiiiiinge. I love me some badass women like bayonetta and eva but Quiet wasnt justified and came off as I said, cringe. Eva tried to seduce snake, raidens clothes and ammo were taken from him, the boss was showing her scar, MGS4 doesnt actually exist and the BB corps never happened, meryl was being spied on in only one instance of the game rather than every loading screen
 
Why do i bother.

The rebuttal was the same old flimsy justification that we always get, awfully tired of entertaining it at this point.
You're tired ? you haven't even tried yet ?!!!
Again, everything to do with Paz is undermined by the pointless sexualization, these are grown as men who made a career off of art, they could have come up with a shit ton of different alternatives for her character design and achieved the same goal with the benefit of not pandering to men specifically.
You can't just scream "sexualisation" and say it's undermined when you don't even take into account the context , reality doesn't work that way.
Her clothing is determined by the location of the scene and is tied to the context , as i've argued above ..it make sense in context .. You're still refusing to even touch that subject
The franchise itself has handled these things better in the past yet they've been steadily devolving and now we have waifu posters of rape victims, think about that for a second. Kojima has done better, but has devolved into making waifu posters of a gang rape victim.
All you're seeing is paz as a rape victim when paz is more than that. You're basicly ignoring her backstory , her relationship to the militaire sans frontière , with snake and only focusing on 1 event , she was raped.
Even if you've never played the other games that stuff is more than obvious. In those scenes , she's talking about chico , about the fauna , about the crew , about snake , about the experience she lived , but you keep coming back to the rape , ignoring all the context. What a flawed argumentation.
It's ignoring the plot of peace walker , it's ignoring the plot of TPP , it's even ignoring the tapes in the game.
For you all that matters is that she's a rape victim .. no that's not all . you can't just reduce a character to a single event for your flawed argument.
I mean you're defending pedobait and gross misogyny, (Pax's entire story involvement in MGSV as a whole amounted to being a torture and rape victim who later gets literally objectified), as some deep nuanced example of characterization.
Pedobait ??At the earliest she's a teennager in the timeline , she was shown multiple times to have aged since then How the heck are you going with that pedo argument ?

Misogyny ? You're even ignoring the geolocalisation of the scene now . You're ignoring her behavior in the scene ?
You're rejecting 95% of the character and it's US ? it's me that is doing gross mesogyny ?
I say, SO WHAT, "the series undermined it's own themes with pointless pandering to dick before so obviously that's just the way it is, regardless of context, or the troubling increasingly misogynistic nature as the series injected more and more mature themes instead of remaining a pulpy video game. It's almost like it's not 2008 anymore so gamers as a whole expect more. Especially gamers who're women.

Me : "context matters and the franchise legacy is important reguarding how it uses some themes and imagery"
Ce : " So What "

Ok then

Why do i bother ?
"it's pointless , it's undermined, it's sexist" yet you still can't refute any claim based on the context , facts linked to the story or the background on the characters , or anything linked to other tropes of the genre introduced in the franchise.

Have fun in your little crusade, what a freaking waste of time.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
You're tired ? you haven't even tried yet ?!!!
You think you're the first person who tried to defend the shit in this game?

You can't just scream "sexualisation" and say it's undermined when you don't even take into account the context , reality doesn't work that way.
How many times do I have to repeat the following:

they could have come up with a shit ton of different alternatives for her character design and achieved the same goal with the benefit of not pandering to men specifically.

Her clothing is determined by the location of the scene and is tied to the context , as i've argued above ..it make sense in context .. You're still refusing to even touch that subject
Yea, just like how Quiet's outfit could be described as a halloween version of a sniper, Paz is basically the halloween version of a nurse, wait, she's actually worse.

All you're seeing is paz as a rape victim when paz is more than that. You're basicly ignoring her backstory , her relationship to the militaire sans frontière , with snake and only focusing on 1 event , she was raped.
She was gang raped and tortured, that was the extent of her characterization in MGSV, her themes are constantly undermined the very second we meet her since the player is immediately given an option to look through her clothing.

Even if you've never played the other games that stuff is more than obvious. In those scenes , she's talking about chico , about the fauna , about the crew , about snake , about the experience she lived , but you keep coming back to the rape , ignoring all the context. What a flawed argumentation.
It's almost like including rape for the sake of maturity and then trying to inject some lightheartedness into that sort of subject matter is a horrible horrible idea.

It's ignoring the plot of peace walker , it's ignoring the plot of TPP , it's even ignoring the tapes in the game.
For you all that matters is that she's a rape victim .. no that's not all . you can't just reduce a character to a single event for your flawed argument.
It's the CRUX of the issue.

Pedobait ??At the earliest she's a teennager in the timeline , she was shown multiple times to have aged since then How the heck are you going with that pedo argument ?
Like the character in the NG creator's last game she's a character who's technically older but perpetually looks like a teenager, ffs the first time we see her she's pretending to be a school girl. She was the final boss and he came up with a multiple plot reasons to not only have her in her underwear but in this case in a completely ridiculous hospital garb, ffs they couldn't even give her pants, pray tell how the lack of pants is oh so important to the player seeing her scar.

Misogyny ? You're even ignoring the geolocalisation of the scene now . You're ignoring her behavior in the scene ?
You're rejecting 95% of the character and it's US ? it's me that is doing gross mesogyny ?
Yes, he game is incredibly misogynistic, Paz included, her entire plot line revolves around a bomb being shoved into her vagina.

Me : "context matters and the franchise legacy is important reguarding how it uses some themes and imagery"
Everyone else:We shouldn't expect this level of juvenile treatment when it comes to female characters, it's 2015, we should expect better from creators when it comes to representation, when we defend this tripe, that's how the status quo is maintained, and gaming is worse off, which leads to an incredibly offputting audience that tries to make it into a boys club, hence things like GG."

YOU:B-b-b-but the serie's legacy!1!"
 
Kojima's work is becoming increasingly misogynistic with the way he handles women... There are some hints of good representation but they're becoming increasingly rare...

...these are grown as men who made a career off of art, they could have come up with a shit ton of different alternatives for her character design and achieved the same goal... The franchise itself has handled these things better in the past yet they've been steadily devolving...

I've played MGS1, MGS2, and Ground Zeroes to completion, but only a few hours in each of the other games. Loved MGS1 and MGS2, but I have mixed feelings about Ground Zeroes.

Encountered some seriously problematic material when I played through GZ. I'd seen/read elsewhere about some of the sketchy stuff in Peace Walker and MGS5, and now reading through this thread, have to agree with Eden.

Kojima's depiction of women is particularly disappointing given that he is capable of thematic maturity and complexity in other respects, as Steven Poole has written. Though even Poole lets Kojima off the hook too easy at various points in his piece ("...adolescent fixation..."), IMO:
https://thepointmag.com/2015/criticism/metal-gear-solid-v

...Yet while Kojima’s games are berserk in many ways, they are not the standard kind of first-person shooter in which thousands of indistinguishable enemy grunts (always Middle Eastern or Russian) die at the point of the player’s phallic rifle... In their dynamic procedure as well as their scripted rhetoric, Kojima’s games are stealthily anti-war war games. In contrast to the fairground bullet-shower of the billion-grossing Call of Duty series (the equivalent in war-themed video games of Michael Bay movies)... The player may thus feel dirty and guilty for doing what is mere routine in other games. As well as in other art forms: MGSV’s emphasis on fanatical caution and planning, as well as the humane neutralizing of enemies, works too as an implicit rebuke to gung-ho war movies—in particular, in this case, the Afghanistan-set Rambo III (1988), whose hero deals very differently with the Soviet occupation...

MGSV: Ground Zeroes (2013) saw the hero tasked with rescuing prisoners from a CIA “black site” prison in Cuba... visually the camp was obviously Guantánamo: the prisoners were dressed in orange jumpsuits, some with hoods over their heads and the victims of torture... at one moment, the games will clownishly revel in the clichés of the form; the next moment they will deconstruct those very clichés and force the player to confront real suffering... The games evince a cherishable silliness, but also a frankly infantile humor. They contain an unusual amount of diarrhea-based gags, and an occasional adolescent fixation on breasts. (The impractically skimpy costume of a woman character in MGSV is narratively—if not convincingly—justified by the invocation of an obscure disease that means she can breathe only through exposed skin.) This wild inconsistency of tone may understandably be taken by some to weaken the impact of Kojima’s treatment of serious themes...

What Metal Gear Solid is satirizing in particular—almost uniquely for high-budget blockbuster products in this medium, or for that matter in cinema and TV—is so omnipresent in most modern fiction that it almost escapes notice. It is what I have called national-security ideology. Its key tenets are familiar: the enemy is fanatical and unreasonable, while Western government operatives are empathetic heroes; killing civilians with drones is just regrettable “collateral damage” in a righteous mission against the irrational fanatics (as in season three of the TV series Homeland); and torture always works to elicit time-critical information, as in Zero Dark Thirty (2012), Homeland, and of course 24... In the newest game the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan is explained to the player in ways that make the parallels with the later American adventure there inescapable. Briefings on (virtual) audiocassette explain that the army of the USSR has invaded in order to counteract “the spread of Islamic revivalism,” and that “Afghanistan has become the Soviet Union’s Vietnam.” Knowing nods to the present day are littered subtly everywhere: in the TV-style opening cast list for the game’s “episodes,” there is a credit for “Enemy Combatants”: a phrase familiar from the Bush-Cheney government’s rhetorical creativity in attempting to avoid acknowledging any “prisoners of war” to whom duties of care would be owed under the Geneva Conventions. Here, the “Enemy Combatants” are the Soviet soldiers, but the casting note works to plant a seed of ambivalence in the player’s attitude towards them...

In the past, the series has had as its satirical targets global conspiracy theories, terrorism scares, and modern military Keynesianism, according to which increased defense spending promotes economic growth—Metal Gear Solid 4 (2008) was all about “private military contractors” and the “war economy,” and had the player buy upgraded weapons from a cynically wisecracking arms dealer named Drebin. The hero of all the games, Snake, is always caught up in the madness of a war-obsessed world. Reluctantly, he must make more war to try to stop it... the film Zero Dark Thirty, for example, was predicated on the idea—promoted by insider “consultants” to the movie—that U.S. torture of prisoners resulted in actionable intelligence. (A canard that has been repeatedly refuted.) Some media critics considered this objectionable, yet the conversation was conducted respectfully. An art-film blockbuster can get things wrong, but it is still considered a serious contribution to such debates. A video game is not... Hideo Kojima’s games notoriously combine sharp reflections on contemporary political themes (The Phantom Pain concerns itself at length with issues of nuclear proliferation) with overscripted, didactic longueurs... Yet as a cultural figure Kojima may be... someone who first introduces a player or reader to the iniquities perpetrated in modern history by the “good” guys. In a still-young medium whose most successful products are deeply conservative, he insists that video games can and should convey critical arguments about international relations and jus in bello...
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
That reminds me, she lives in the desert for months before Venom gets to her, and apparently had no problems with subsistence in regards to food. IIRC she uses water for that purpose, so she's having to cross deserts or use those powers (that take up even more energy) of hiding herself for the sake of getting into the Russian Soldier bases and getting water from them.

The whole explanation would've been fine, albit dumb as hell, if this and another example (Code Talker) didn't fly in the face of that narrative.

Quiet's arc was one of the more impactful game narratives I've experienced. Her choice of clothing didn't bother me that much. She wasn't part of a military unit anymore, she could wear whatever she wanted to. I was more put off by the narrative explanation than that. I think the leering camera angles were more problematic than the outfit.

I guess the part that did bother me
was keeping her in jail the whole time, even after everyone began to trust her. And those same static animations she went through over and over were horrible, designed to make the player feel like Quiet was developing attraction for Big Boss, but so static that it the illusion was easily broken. If they had given her a room, I would've felt like Kojima respected her character enough to not keep her on display.

Speaking of the jail cell,
Big Boss was supposedly the leader, and yet he didn't stop his men from writing all that abusive stuff about Quiet? I mean, I guess if you want to go meta you can say that since you were the fake Boss you never had any real control, but from a gameplay and immersion perspective the world-building and agency your character had on Mother Base felt hollow. Also weird was that by the time of the Quiet interrogation scene, there was already something between her and Boss, but he let them torture her anyway, just standing there watching. By comparison, Quiet had much more agency than Big Boss. She could leave the cell when she wanted, she could even leave the game when she wanted. But Big Boss is stuck in that world.

Anyway, there's definitely a problematic aspect to how Kojima treated Quiet, and yet despite that her presence in the game was the most impactful. The last mission and
her exit
definitely affected me.

I think the signs were written around the time she was first brought to Mother Base and Venom never did anything to remove them. Plus some folks still distrusted her (Miller, notable) to where telling the men to take them down probably wouldn't have helped with morale.

As for the interrogation: Well, she's being interrogated. I mean he could've stopped it, sure. But if they wanted information, how else would they have gotten it if they didn't "break" her?
 

Even after Miller changed his mind
about Quiet, the graffiti was still there, and she was still in jail. I always found the leadership dynamic odd anyway. Miller was in charge of the base, but Big Boss was supposedly in charge of the men. Yet he couldn't even order them to stay in line? Didn't vouch for Quiet even after going on dozens of missions and developing a bond?

Which brings me to the interrogation.
As far as I can remember that was all Miller's idea. Big Boss already had a bond with her, and supposedly romantic feelings, yet he said nothing to stop it. It seems at odds with their character development. I was practically screaming at my own character to do something, but nope.

p.s. I'm using spoilers because the OP hasn't finished the game or Quiet's arc. You might want to also.
 
I've played MGS1, MGS2, and Ground Zeroes to completion, but only a few hours in each of the other games. Loved MGS1 and MGS2, but I have mixed feelings about Ground Zeroes.

Encountered some seriously problematic material when I played through GZ. I'd seen/read elsewhere about some of the sketchy stuff in Peace Walker and MGS5, and now reading through this thread, have to agree with Eden.

Kojima's depiction of women is particularly disappointing given that he is capable of thematic maturity and complexity in other respects, as Steven Poole has written. Though even Poole lets Kojima off the hook too easy at various points in his piece ("...adolescent fixation..."), IMO:
Eden is basicly Taking an event happenning in one game (Ground zeroes) and ignoring stuff happenning in 2 other games ( Peace walker , TPP ) as basis of his argument.
I can debate about Kojima choice of themes in GZ but that's an issue much different than TPP.

if you don't have the whole story or take it into account , you're not seeing things properly.

That article is something i could comment on , because the argument on the treatment of characters across all the games is intresting since it's something i'm trying to tell eden , to look at the rest of the franchise when you're talking about a character since TPP is the end of the journey for us the player.
 

Limality

Banned
As for Quiet, the reasoning for her clothing is ridiculous and her appearance could be so much more, but her character turns out to be the most interesting, her story the most emotional. I think her arc brought more to the game than any other character.

This. Quiet is a really interesting character and yet people can't look beyond what she's wearing (or not wearing)...
 
This. Quiet is a really interesting character and yet people can't look beyond what she's wearing (or not wearing)...

Is not only what she's wearing, is how she acts and is presented to the player. It really undermines her character and story arc, to a point it loses almost all significance.
 

Forkball

Member
Nah, woman can't be naked in game, is bad, let's rioooooottttttt....

This is more sexist than make a character naked, come on people, we play a game whit a full nude guy...

maxresdefault.jpg


Let's all get naked, and have some funnnnnnn...

Naked-Raiden-Cartwheel-MGS2.jpg


Weeeeyyyyyyyyy....

MGS is all about this, FUN, god, people who can't see fun in other naked people, based on gender, has problems...

The cloth of a character, don't define it...Just like a REAL person, think about that...

Love to u all! =*

Raiden's naked moment was obviously supposed to be strange and comedic, while Quiet's lack of clothing is for sex appeal. There is a big difference in how they are portrayed and the context of both. I love MGSV but let's not pretend Quiet was anything more than some sex appeal in the sausage fest that is Mother Base.
 

PtM

Banned
I was very curious about how Kojima would make us ashamed of our words and deeds. I thought he was going to pull it off.

He didn't though. I wasn't ashamed at all. Quiet is incredibly useful in the game, but as a character she is totally awkward in every sense.
Maybe it was a typo. You're probably meant to be ashamed of his words & deeds.
 

DevilDog

Member
Haha, Kojima reminds me of a kid I used to know in school, where he would direct a play and he would "write" the role of a girl he was in love with to be in love with him, the protagonist, just to hang around with him and get her to kiss him.

ASK HER OUT ALREADY KOJIMA
 

PtM

Banned
Eden is basicly Taking an event happenning in one game (Ground zeroes) and ignoring stuff happenning in 2 other games ( Peace walker , TPP ) as basis of his argument.
I can debate about Kojima choice of themes in GZ but that's an issue much different than TPP.

if you don't have the whole story or take it into account , you're not seeing things properly.

That article is something i could comment on , because the argument on the treatment of characters across all the games is intresting since it's something i'm trying to tell eden , to look at the rest of the franchise when you're talking about a character since TPP is the end of the journey for us the player.
If you have to take tangential information into account for something, that's a flaw.
If the authorial treatment of Paz is in theme with the series, that's not alleviating.
 

horkrux

Member
She was gang raped and tortured, that was the extent of her characterization in MGSV, her themes are constantly undermined the very second we meet her since the player is immediately given an option to look through her clothing.

That's just wrong. Her characterization extends to the conversations with Chico he caught on tape (which were less than friendly iirc). She then throws herself from the helicopter when she could have just stayed inside, seeing that she used to be one of the main villains in PW.

Not going to defend Quiet though. Every bit of good faith you might have had towards Kojima regarding this character with her burned lungs is destroyed the minute you see her stretching her butt into your face on the helicopter. But all that happens within the same game. You could look through Paz' clothing in PW, yes, but GZ set out to capture a different tone. If that was somehow an impossibility, then I guess making a more serious game is also undermined by previous characters in the series fighting with electricity and bees.
 
I remember reading that Kojima originally wanted to depict t the Beauty & Beast Unit form MGS4 as nude once you defeated them before you execute them.

Apparently his team talked him out of it and we got the sneaking suits instead.
 

Servbot24

Banned
Quiet's design is really great purely from a shape design sense.

It's completely absurd and absolutely unnecessary in terms of actually being in a video game.

Also, lol at people sincerely trying to use the "the developers invented a scenario in which Quiet had to get naked in order to survive! see, it all makes sense in context!" argument.
 

RM8

Member
Guys, guys, it's a game so it's okay if we only get cringey pandering characters! - I'll never understand this argument.
 

DevilFox

Member
He wanted to see Joosten in a bikini. He wanted to sell merchandise. He wanted to sell MGSV through cosplays (and oh boy he did it). He even blatantly lied about it. That's all there is to understand, nothing more than a arrogant man's whim with way too much decisional power and a lust for rev ehm fanservice, the bad one. If any other developer tried to do something like this, I know for sure that journalists would've called out the bs. But it's Kojima, it's MGS, so we get a mostly silent reaction.
At the end of the day, Quiet's design is nothing more than a marketing decision and I don't know if I could elaborate a worst criticism to a director / writer / designer / whatever that's considered an artist. It really speaks a lot for the industry.

it worked for me, it's just a video game, stop trying to justify everything with common sense, it's about fun sometimes.

That's a sad argument. First, being a videogame doesn't allow you to do whatever you want and be excused for it. It's about time we make some steps forward, actually.
Second, could you please point me at the funny stuff please? Bayonetta's "no one said you could touch!" is somehow a funny line, given the character, its design, the context.. but Quiet's dance in the rain or the "look at how hot I am please" set of animations in the helicopter? Hell no, that's low-key fan service.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Guys, guys, it's a game so it's okay if we only get cringey pandering characters! - I'll never understand this argument.
It's basically stockholm syndrome in the context of this medium, a self defeating argument that wants the status quo to be maintained instead of making things better, particularly when it involves the sexualization of women. As if shit representation of women is inherent in this medium. Basically, it's like every argument used in this card:
CfdlO3E.png
 

DevilDog

Member
Guys, guys, it's a game so it's okay if we only get cringey pandering characters! - I'll never understand this argument.

I think it's more about that it's an extreme case of a very unimportant matter.

I'd rather see all this effort go into demanding studios deliver better writing. That should solve both issues.
 

HYDE

Banned
Nah, woman can't be naked in game, is bad, let's rioooooottttttt....

This is more sexist than make a character naked, come on people, we play a game whit a full nude guy...

maxresdefault.jpg


Let's all get naked, and have some funnnnnnn...

Naked-Raiden-Cartwheel-MGS2.jpg


Weeeeyyyyyyyyy....

MGS is all about this, FUN, god, people who can't see fun in other naked people, based on gender, has problems...

The cloth of a character, don't define it...Just like a REAL person, think about that...

Love to u all! =*

Thank you for posting this...I was about to say what about MGS2 and Raiden!?
 
If you have to take tangential information into account for something, that's a flaw.
If the authorial treatment of Paz is in theme with the series, that's not alleviating.

No , it's not tangential information. Sequels are not limited to the informations within their game.
TPP is the sequel to ground zeroes witch is the sequel to peace walker.

There is a thing called "character arc" across multiple games defining the treatment of the character You can't just ignore everything that happenned before and focus on just one tiny aspect and expect me to accept that conclusion. You have to take into account the whole character across all games.
Being a sequel is not a flaw when you're trying to be focused on the narrative. it's part of the package.
 
Raiden's naked moment was obviously supposed to be strange and comedic, while Quiet's lack of clothing is for sex appeal. There is a big difference in how they are portrayed and the context of both. I love MGSV but let's not pretend Quiet was anything more than some sex appeal in the sausage fest that is Mother Base.

Raiden was literally put in the series for female fans. We have Kojima, on record, LITERALLY saying Raiden's design and him being naked was purely fanservice and sex appeal. I can't believe years later we have people trying to state otherwise
 

Endo Punk

Member
Nothing in the franchise has irked me more than Quite. The games have a lot of perverse ideas that just come of silly or funny like the white room in MGS4, and sometimes it makes sense like Eva in MGS3. How Quite was portrayed and the explanation was just creepy, like Kojima thought its his last Metal Gear so lets go out with no fucks given.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Thank you for posting this...I was about to say what about MGS2 and Raiden!?
That argument has been debunked multiple times in this thread. Raiden in MGS2 is nothing like the following:
tumblr_nu35hzReej1t6xtc8o1_r2_400.gif

tumblr_nu8rif3TVQ1s6ub5do7_400.gif

7583c90eacd71cd7eed57420ac5843d0.gif

48e3d45f465ae61beb3acac7e4dbd07b.gif

8TRFcRd.gif

Sjc6NrE.gif

Shit doesn't stop at the torture scenes either, no let's keep focusing on boobehs during torture
zZ2Dg7s.gif

dK2YM7v.gif


make her top magically pop open during rape too while we're at it
umGDZXz.gif


She even has alternate colors silver and gold, she's literally a trophy that the player can choose to either bring to their base or kill. According to Kojima she's supposed to be the antithesis but honestly she's EVERYTHING wrong with representation of women in gaming rolled up into one character. This is a game about child soldiers and nukes in Africa with blood diamond imagery with the least amount of anime influence in terms of aesthetic and tone despite the typical shit like super powers via deus ex machina plot device and yet it's filled with the dreck. And people defend this sort of shit. B-b-b-but the plot is so good, yea, NO IT'S NOT. It's shit tier like the rest of the plot of the game.

She's an assassin sent to kill BB at the beginning of the game, not wearing a mask like literally EVERY other male soldier, including a dead guy who has a mask made of fire, gets her set on fire since she wants to kill the other patient, which conveniently only burns her lungs specifically, which get replaced by deus ex machinas called nanoma--I mean parasites. This means that she can't talk or else she'll kill BB, who she admires because she saved his ass when he almost got himself killed trying to take down a jet, after he didn't kill her because he's just a nice guy. So now she sits there in her cage with her top off and hums, because even tho she has no lungs her deus ex machinas can do anything the writer says they can so she can actually talk, despite not having the things specifically needed to talk. Buuuutttt, as the game goes on she doesn't write shit down, or use sign language even after becoming cooperative and going on missions with Venom Snake, at any point she could've chosen to give him very pertinent information but does not do so for absolutely no reason given, but hey, she'll shower and strip and dance in the rain. She literally only tells one dude why she's there. Incredibly gross sexualization is the tip of the iceberg for the nonsense that went into that character. She's just like, the epitome of everything wrong with women in games to the point that it's honestly astounding.
-_-
 
He wanted to see Joosten in a bikini. He wanted to sell merchandise. He wanted to sell MGSV through cosplays (and oh boy he did it). He even blatantly lied about it. That's all there is to understand, nothing more than a arrogant man's whim with way too much decisional power and a lust for rev ehm fanservice, the bad one. If any other developer tried to do something like this, I know for sure that journalists would've called out the bs. But it's Kojima, it's MGS, so we get a mostly silent reaction.
At the end of the day, Quiet's design is nothing more than a marketing decision and I don't know if I could elaborate a worst criticism to a director / writer / designer / whatever that's considered an artist. It really speaks a lot for the industry.

1. Kojima doesn't lie about it. He never lied about design choices.

https://twitter.com/HIDEO_KOJIMA_EN/status/375142332875558912
I've been ordering to Yoji to make the character more erotic, and he did it well. Recently I've been making characters this way. (cont)

https://twitter.com/HIDEO_KOJIMA_EN/status/375142795779923968
The initial target is to make u want to do cosplay or its figurine to sell well.

2. The bond type girls are in every MGS. As far as looks are concerned he has sexy women in revealing clothing. That does not reflect really how amazing/ deatly they are, it is just seemingly more of something he picked up off of his influences, which is cinema. MGS has always been a mix of influences you can relate to if you watched certain action films.

3. There is no need to criticize him because of his view, you either like it or not, but there are more factors to his characters other than just the looks.



Why do people keep on bringing up the "note" idea. It is a dumb idea and the game demonstrates why..... violently.

1. Not writing anything has nothing to do with men or women, but soldiers on a battlefield. How believable would a note be. What is the mental reasoning you are employing here that would make you believe, that on a mercenary base, where the other soldiers not only fear you but dislike you, that it is a good idea to mention that you are basically Typhoid Mary. Think it would be all smiles and a moment in cheers if she conveyed that in a note?



Lol

1. I Just addressed this

Yea... I guess you missed the entire chapter of the game y'know.... when he has to deal with his own soldiers that are infected. The soldiers he spent months fighting with and training....

But your right... because it is Quiet and post-its stating "Oh, btw, I am a walking biological Weapon of Mass Destruction!" are some times so dosh garn cute......


2. She was receiving sunlight if you notice when the guy was trying to strangle her the jumpsuit was opening, before the guy tried to even rape her she was being saved from suffocating by the act of him trying to suffocate her, not the attempted rape. That is the moment she chose to attack because the guy had his guard down.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Why do people keep on bringing up the "note" idea. It is a dumb idea and the game demonstrates why..... violently.
And who's to say that BB has to tell his men anything? She tells Code Talker the truth but no one else. It makes very little sense.
 

Javin98

Banned
Yes, the people you talk to absolutely matters. First of all, you shouldn't ever give those people the time of day, second of all, you honestly think I give a shit about GG and Voat types salty about the fact that hey, I committed the egregious sin of critiquing sexualization in gaming? Also, the gaming side diversity bingo card exists for a reason, this thread is yet another example where it can be used. When so many videos, articles, and podcasts have been made about why there's SO much wrong about Quiet I think at this point people need to stop trying to pass her off as some misunderstood character and call a spade a spade.
I apologize for taking so long to reply. I didn't see your edit until now.

Anyway, I don't refute your points about Quiet because even I'm not going to defend her outfit and erotic actions. Yes, I love the character (and I make no secret that I think Stefanie Joosten is pretty hot), but there's no defending the edginess of the character. However, beyond the outfit and erotic actions, I think her character development and arc was very well written. Mission 45 really hit me hard when I first played it. Furthermore, I'm not the kind who likes to stir controversy for no good reason. I just accept it's Kojima doing dumb and questionable shit like all his other games and move on. That's my stance. I have no issue with people who believe they can change something by posting on forums.

However, what you call ad hominem (I admit I was pretty harsh) is me calling you out for hypocrisy. You called this game out for having shit tier writing, yet Ubisoft games are generally known for shit tier writing. You called Nathan Drake for being the most generic white guy ever, yet Aiden Pearce is widely known for being an extremely generic white guy. Hell, even Jason Brody in FC3 is and he is one of the worst written characters in gaming. My problem is, you stir controversy for other games, but defend Ubisoft games for exactly what you criticize other games on.

Look, let me just be frank. You can PM the mods and tell them I've been shit posting about you many times, but first, can I request you lead a handful of people to this post and ask them if I'm right? Just look at this thread. As a whole, literally no one who has debated with you has ended up with any fruitful discussion. This extends further to your hypocrisy. As I said, you also have a massive ego and can never see other point of views. It's one thing to accept it, but it's also another thing to simply acknowledge a difference of opinions and move on.

Edit: I'd like to add that in a thread such as this, where the interpretation of characters are highly subjective based on point of view, there are no hard, cold facts. Everyone interprets a character's actions and appearance in their own way. You can criticize the female characters in MGS all you want, but it doesn't disprove what others think about them.
 
Nah, woman can't be naked in game, is bad, let's rioooooottttttt....

This is more sexist than make a character naked, come on people, we play a game whit a full nude guy...

maxresdefault.jpg


Let's all get naked, and have some funnnnnnn...

Naked-Raiden-Cartwheel-MGS2.jpg


Weeeeyyyyyyyyy....

MGS is all about this, FUN, god, people who can't see fun in other naked people, based on gender, has problems...

The cloth of a character, don't define it...Just like a REAL person, think about that...

Love to u all! =*


Nudity isn't sexist. What do you do with nudity can be. Basically, nudity for Raiden in the game is a comic relief. The funny angles to hid is genitalia, the fact that he's in cold and hiding his parts with his hands... the point is to make it a comic relief.

Nudity for Quiet is supposed to be sexy, or more like it's supposed to give the player nudity as a sexual component and not as a comic relief. Basically, MGS always treated nudity for men as a comic relief (Raiden, Johnny Sasaki) and as for women as a sexy component. Before, I had no problem with that. Why ? Because these were just slight moments and these characters had something beyond that.

Quiet ? Come on... she just exist to sell merchandises and to fulfill Kojima's pervert side.
 
Nudity isn't sexist. What do you do with nudity can be. Basically, nudity for Raiden in the game is a comic relief. The funny angles to hid is genitalia, the fact that he's in cold and hiding his parts with his hands... the point is to make it a comic relief.

Nudity for Quiet is supposed to be sexy, or more like it's supposed to give the player nudity as a sexual component and not as a comic relief. Basically, MGS always treated nudity for men as a comic relief (Raiden, Johnny Sasaki) and as for women as a sexy component. Before, I had no problem with that. Why ? Because these were just slight moments and these characters had something beyond that.

Quiet ? Come on... she just exist to sell merchandises and to fulfill Kojima's pervert side.

Raiden is female fanservice. Why people deny this is bizarre when it was explicitly stated. And your comment about it simply being "comic relief" is innacurate as well, unless you've NEVER read an ecchi Japanese manga. The vast majority of them are humorous and laden with sexual content. In fact, they oftentimes use humor as justification for that sexual content. The scene of a male character tripping, and accidentally groping a female, or flailing and accidentally pulling off her top? You wouldn't deny that that's for the sake of simply showing her without clothes, despite it being presented completely humorously. Raiden is the same exact thing. Fanservice doesn't always have to be "serious" or played straight
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I apologize for taking so long to reply. I didn't see your edit until now. Anyway, I don't refute your points about Quiet because even I'm not going to defend her outfit and erotic actions. Yes, I love the character (and I make no secret that I think Stefanie Joosten is pretty hot), but there's no defending the edginess of the character. However, beyond the outfit and erotic actions, I think her character development and arc was very well written. Mission 45 really hit me hard when I first played it. Furthermore, I'm not the kind who likes to stir controversy for no good reason. I just accept it's Kojima doing dumb and questionable shit like all his other games and move on. That's my stance. I have no issue with people who believe they can change something by posting on forums.
First of all, there's plenty of good reasons to criticize Wuiet not only as a character but as a concept, it's like she specifically designed to maintain the status quo of how poor respresentstoon of women is on gaming. And no, her arc isn't very well written at all, maybe relative to the rest of the game, which is general is laughably bad in that regard to the point that it created not one but several memes, (WHOOOOOOO). I'm not even sure how it could be described as an arc considering the second she's on your base is the second she starts taking orders from BB and becomes completely obedient except when she decides to do something like attack a soldier who has the deus ex machines virus. Literally all he has to do is out his hand on her shoulder.

However, what you call ad hominem (I admit I was pretty harsh) is me calling you out for hypocrisy. You called this game out for having shit tier writing, yet Ubisoft games are generally known for shit tier writing.
Except for the fact that they're not, especially not in comparison to MGSV. At the very least, they get dialogue and acting right.

You called Nathan Drake for being the most generic white guy ever, yet Aiden Pearce is widely known for being an extremely generic white guy.
Nathan Drake is the poster child for the cocky white brown haired due stereotype, at the very least WD1 acknowledges that Aiden is a bad person.


Hell, even Jason Brody in FC3 is and he is one of the worst written characters in gaming.
Literally a satire of white savior tropes. That flew over so many people's head for some reason.

My problem is, you stir controversy for other games, but defend Ubisoft games for exactly what you criticize other games on.
Except that I have criticized Uhisoft in the pay, maybe stop attempting to microanalyzer my posts or let's call it what it is, OBSESSING with my posts.

Look, let me just be frank. You can PM the mods and tell them I've been shit posting about you many times, but first, can I request you lead a handful of people to this post and ask them if I'm right? Just look at this thread. As a whole, literally no one who has debated with you has ended up with any fruitful discussion. This extends further to your hypocrisy. As I said, you also have a massive ego and can never see other point of views. It's one thing to accept it, but it's also another thing to simply acknowledge a difference of opinions and move on.

Edit: I'd like to add that in a thread such as this, where the interpretation of characters are highly subjective based on point of view, there are no hard, cold facts. Everyone interprets a character's actions and appearance in their own way. You can criticize the female characters in MGS all you want, but it doesn't disprove what others think about them.
Like I said, stop obsessing with my posts especially if you're not actually gonna refute any of the points and would rather bitch and moan about a person who doesn't give equal treatment to criticism, (as fucking if you do yet I'm the hypocrite lmfao your logic is terrible) and yes, people can choose to like misogynidtic poorly written dreck, but that doesn't mean that it's NOT poorly written misogynidtic dreck. That can be summed up in the following

Breathes through her skin.
 

Javin98

Banned
Okay, okay, calm down. Your tone and wording here is proving my point exactly. You know, what, I'm going to stop the ad hominem posts on you, I'm just going to straight up ignore your posts if that helps. Now, I'm not saying this to be a smart ass, I'm serious. The problem is, in this post I'm replying to, you're stating interpretations that I've only seen you hold, well, to be fair, a small minority, but you're saying others who hold a minority view should be disregarded because they are flat out wrong. Is that not hypocrisy?

In my earlier post, I tried to tone down the ad hominem to almost zero and rationally relate to you why many others have problems with your posts, but if you are going to counter with ad hominem, have it your way.

Tell you what, if I'm the only one who holds such negative opinions of you, I will admit I was wrong and openly apologize to you. I have no problems admitting I misinterpreted and misunderstood a person.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
In my earlier post, I tried to tone down the ad hominem to almost zero and rationally relate to you why many others have problems with your posts, but if you are going to counter with ad hominem, have it your way..
If you want to have a more mature discussion, the ad homimen bullshit should be set to zero, ALL THE TIME, not some of the time, not whenever you feel like it, but in general, be an adult. It's not that difficult to discuss things without resorting to ad hominem nonsense because "boohoo you don't criticize ubisoft games enough." Honestly, who gives a shit? Because I certainly don't. Me not criticizing Ubi games enough, (as if there's a prerequisite amount of required bitching and revisionist history about their games before one dares to post about other games), has nothing to do with the points being made, which are way more often than not, incredibly valid and backed up with many examples straight from the game.
 

Javin98

Banned
If you want to have a more mature discussion, the ad homimen bullshit should be set to zero, ALL THE TIME, not some of the time, not whenever you feel like it, but in general, be an adult. It's not that difficult to discuss things without resorting to ad hominem nonsense because "boohoo you don't criticize ubisoft games enough." Honestly, who gives a shit? Because I certainly don't. Me not criticizing Ubi games enough, (as if there's a prerequisite amount of required bitching and revisionist history about their games before one dares to post about other games), has nothing to do with the points being made, which are way more often than not, incredibly valid and backed up with many examples straight from the game.
You see, you blame others for calling you out on your Ubisoft favoritism, but the truth is, it's the root of the problems. Many people can't take your posts seriously because of the aforementioned hypocritical behavior. Now, don't take this as ad hominem, I'm stating what is the general opinion on this forum, forget the GG/VOAT peps for a minute. I mean, even the mods "granted" you a new tag. If it was really everyone else's fault, do you really think that would happen?

Also, unless it's written in stone, it's not facts. Interpretation of characters, their development and arcs are not limited to one view. You can view Aiden Pearce as a well written character and I'm cool with that. Just be aware that it is an extremely small minority. Similarly, you should acknowledge that many people view Quiet as a well written character and move on. That's all it is. Interpretations.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
You see, you blame others for calling you out on your
Skip

Also, unless it's written in stone, it's not facts. Interpretation of characters, their development and arcs are not limited to one view.
This logic would literally get you laughed out of any film critique/analysis class in university.

You can view Aiden Pearce as a well written character and I'm cool with that. Just be aware that it is an extremely small minority. Similarly, you should acknowledge that many people view Quiet as a well written character and move on. That's all it is. Interpretations.
When have I ever said that Aiden Piece was well written at any point in this thread? Also, many people view Quiet as a well written character doesn't mean "hey she's well written." It just means that people view a poorly written misogynistic character who's entire plot can be summed up in the phrase, she breaths through her skin, with the most thinly veiled transparent examples of sexism the industry's seen in awhile especially in the triple A space, as well written. Notice how I actually broke down the many ways in which her plot does not work, it doesn't work from the very first time she makes an appearance, mainly because the focus on her appearance contradicts her actions, why would someone who doesn't wanna be seen not wear a mask like EVERY other male soldier in the game? Why can she hum and talk if the things literally required to do so are apparently burnt to hell, (but not any other part of her body), hell, why is she even wearing clothing at all if she needs to breath through her skin yet doesn't care about modesty since she has animalistic/pornstar like behavior when it comes to showing off her body. None of these things work from a plot perspective and the faster we stop taking dreck as well written the more the medium can improve. Especially when they make claims like "she's the antithesis of women in gaming and you'll be ashamed of your words and deeds." Honestly it makes no sense that she doesn't infect BB given the incredibly close proximity and amount of words she speaks. But as a reminder, this is the shit people are saying is well written:
tumblr_nu35hzReej1t6xtc8o1_r2_400.gif

tumblr_nu8rif3TVQ1s6ub5do7_400.gif

7583c90eacd71cd7eed57420ac5843d0.gif

48e3d45f465ae61beb3acac7e4dbd07b.gif

8TRFcRd.gif

Sjc6NrE.gif

Shit doesn't stop at the torture scenes either, no let's keep focusing on boobehs during torture
zZ2Dg7s.gif

dK2YM7v.gif


make her top magically pop open during rape too while we're at it
umGDZXz.gif

Literally everything having to do with her plot is specifically designed to justify the above no matter how illogical, sexist, or at the very worst of times, misogynistic.
 

Javin98

Banned
Aiden Pearce was used as an example, Crossing Eden. Chill. And I'll repeat. I will not defend the crazy, ridiculous shit Quiet does or what she wears. I just found the character development and arc really well done, that's it. However, I won't whine about the ridiculous shit Quiet does on GAF or any other forum for the matter. Basically, I find it ridiculous, but I accept it. Please don't take the time and effort to convince me otherwise. Not a sarcastic note, BTW, I mean it, save your time and effort.

Okay, let's try this another way. Truth be told, I don't think the stories in MGS games are well written, but Kojima has a unique way of story telling, I'd say. Same goes for the characters in the games. So, to get this over with, I'm just going to say I don't think Quiet is a well written character. Her arc and development was very interesting and relatable to me. Now, I'm not moving goalposts, I'm changing my wording so hopefully you can see my point of view.

Edit: Before you come back with a snarky comment, "see" and not "accept".
 

sonicmj1

Member
Quiet's character motivations are pretty nonsensical. At the end of the game we're expected to simultaneously believe that she's a committed soldier who hated Snake to the point of harboring a deadly parasite in order to kill him at the time of her choosing, and that she also gladly fought alongside Snake and murdered her former comrades-in-arms on multiple missions over the course of months when she had the ability to escape or defeat her captors whenever she wished. Her quasi-romance with Snake can only be explained as either Stockholm Syndrome towards her torturers, or as ego-stroking wish fulfillment. Neither explanation gives her much real agency.

Somehow, she still gets the most emotional moment in the game, which is more an indictment of how weakly the rest of the cast is handled than anything else.

If Skullface wanted to use Quiet as a vector to spread the parasite, why send her out to have a sniper duel against Snake instead of, like, having her pretend to be a POW of some kind? Was it reasonable to think that Snake would recruit her?
 
Aiden Pearce was used as an example, Crossing Eden. Chill. And I'll repeat. I will not defend the crazy, ridiculous shit Quiet does or what she wears. I just found the character development and arc really well done, that's it. However, I won't whine about the ridiculous shit Quiet does on GAF or any other forum for the matter. Basically, I find it ridiculous, but I accept it. Please don't take the time and effort to convince me otherwise. Not a sarcastic note, BTW, I mean it, save your time and effort.

Okay, let's try this another way. Truth be told, I don't think the stories in MGS games are well written, but Kojima has a unique way of story telling, I'd say. Same goes for the characters in the games. So, to get this over with, I'm just going to say I don't think Quiet is a well written character. Her arc and development was very interesting and relatable to me. Now, I'm not moving goalposts, I'm changing my wording so hopefully you can see my point of view.

Edit: Before you come back with a snarky comment, "see" and not "accept".

The bolded is also why quiet is still a popular character among fans.
It's not like spamming gifs is going to change that
 

SomTervo

Member
Quiet's character motivations are pretty nonsensical. At the end of the game we're expected to simultaneously believe that she's a committed soldier who hated Snake to the point of harboring a deadly parasite in order to kill him at the time of her choosing, and that she also gladly fought alongside Snake and murdered her former comrades-in-arms on multiple missions over the course of months when she had the ability to escape or defeat her captors whenever she wished. Her quasi-romance with Snake can only be explained as either Stockholm Syndrome towards her torturers, or as ego-stroking wish fulfillment. Neither explanation gives her much real agency.

Somehow, she still gets the most emotional moment in the game, which is more an indictment of how weakly the rest of the cast is handled than anything else.

If Skullface wanted to use Quiet as a vector to spread the parasite, why send her out to have a sniper duel against Snake instead of, like, having her pretend to be a POW of some kind? Was it reasonable to think that Snake would recruit her?

There's meant to be a fairly clear moment where she swaps sides. I can't remember where it is though.
 
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