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"there may be a SM64-style Mario game coming for the Switch" -- is wishful thinking
- Thread starter nullset2
- Start date
Patrick Young
Member
I'll be very happy if there isn't a timer. The timer is a big contributor to making a Mario game linear.
One of the things I love about SM64 is how they extracted every last use out of the level design by sprinkling in their objectives wherever they could. Things like activating the five secrets in Tiny Huge Island, or grabbing the vanish cap and running right through Wet Dry World's downtown. It was borne out of necessity, but I think they nevertheless created something of real value with the SM64 format.
Having said that, the days of having seven main objectives are definitely over I'm sure (even though I personally wish they weren't).
So the question is, if Nintendo is taking any inspiration from SM64, what exactly do they have in store. To my mind the closer they get in every category, from the variety to the exploration to the actual course layout, the better off they'll be. But whatever they do I'd expect them to limit the amount of time spent covering the same ground.
I absolutely believe that it is possible to create a game that is similar to SM64 in terms of structure, freedom of movement, and having a free, open, nonlinear world whilst creating levels that are significantly more intricate than what Nintendo was able to accomplish in 1996.
Will it? Eh, who knows. When NSMB released in 2006 it felt like a return to form for a style of game that Nintendo hadn't developed in well over a decade and it became renormalized. So there's nothing to say that can't happen for the SM64-style Mario games. I don't believe any of the lead developers at Nintendo have conclusively said in interviews that they're never going back to a more nonlinear style of platformers. I will say that after SM3D World Idk where they'd go with that style of Mario games, because that felt like the culmination of everything the EAD Team had been doing since Galaxy 1 in some ways.
Will it? Eh, who knows. When NSMB released in 2006 it felt like a return to form for a style of game that Nintendo hadn't developed in well over a decade and it became renormalized. So there's nothing to say that can't happen for the SM64-style Mario games. I don't believe any of the lead developers at Nintendo have conclusively said in interviews that they're never going back to a more nonlinear style of platformers. I will say that after SM3D World Idk where they'd go with that style of Mario games, because that felt like the culmination of everything the EAD Team had been doing since Galaxy 1 in some ways.
Captain Europe
Member
Whatever they'll do, I have faith in EAD's talent, their Mario games have been great so far. I hope they find a happy medium between exploration and tight focussed, platforming. It does seem they are doing just that what with the camera style and Mario having the triple jump, the Mexican place looking more explorable, and the temple level having focussed platforming.
As long as they don't bring back the collect 8 red/blue/collect 100 coins objectives, that was shit tier padding.
If theres anything i hate more its how gradually worse they made controlling Mario.
Losing the slide in galaxy was bad enough, but then making the long jump worse and removing the triple jump? Sunshine has hands down the best movement mechanics.
But Galaxy isn't a collectathon. Your goal in the majority of levels is to follow a linear path to a goal. In Galaxy that goal is a star, in 3D World that goal is a flagpole. However in 3D World you do need to collect green stars in order to progress. Since the green stars aren't required for beating the individual levels and there are a ton of them then 3D World is clearly a collectathon by your standards, right?
It honestly feels like Nintendo will never trust players enough to allow for that freedom of depth in a 3D space. Or rather they never trusted players enough to begin with, but it kind of happened by virtue of SM64 being their first 3D platformer.
Uhhh. Breath of the Wild?
Depends, level wise maybe but contols/mechanics wise its closer to 64 and those are the things I didnt like in 3d world.
Liked:
Linear levels with very creative platforming that played like 2d mario in 3d.
Disliked:
2d mario formula meaning: time limit, health system depending on power ups and coins dont heal you (imo this is huge and I never see anyone mentioning, in previous 3d mario you nearly always die from falling, in 3d world you die a lot from enemies), also the game relied too much on preserving a power up to the end (for green stars and stamps), one hit and it was gone restart the level and try again.
3D World requires you collect things to progress through occasional gates too if this is the route we're going down.
I meant strictly in terms of a 3D Mario. Every followup to SM64 has in some way simplified or reduced the complexity, or rather flexibility, of how you control Mario.
For me personally, I've been fine with it because they still always control extremely well, but for people yearning for something akin to the way SM64 played I feel like it's a lost cause. I'd love to be wrong about that in the future though.
Did you actually play Mario 64? It's all about obstacle courses. Even in worlds with several stars and objectives, the paths become obstacle courses. Luckily, since it's platforming we want from a Mario game.
Captain Europe
Member
The health system wasn't all that different really, when your health is full in 3D World you get three hits, just like in Galaxy. You just visually shrink, but other than that it makes no difference. Coins healing you also make the games easier, which isn't a good thing IMO.
I swear, sometimes it seems as if people think SM64 was The Elder Scrolls: Super Mario Edition. Even within SM64, there are a lot of obstacle courses.
Patrick Young
Member
I was fine with the levels of 3D World. What I dislike was being unable to run instantly, the timer and digital movement. All were things that Super Mario 64 did well.
Cheeseman Battitude
Member
Nintendo has put a lot of effort into Zelda's open world, so would they do an open world Mario? Or at least a hub area that's so big it has tons of stuff to do in its own right, like areas to practice the controls, earn coins etc.
I'd like to see a Super Mario game that is a mix between both styles, the more open worlds and the obstacle-focused linear ones. Someone had a similar idea in some earlier thread but I can't find it right now. Basically in the open levels you can find paths that lead to other open levels or to a star but these paths are obstacle-filled levels on their own. A bit like the first Jak and Daxter if there were some linear levels inbetween (with warps or something similar to get to the unlocked open worlds faster of course). It certainly would be an interesting idea.
But I digress, a weakpoint of the level design for me in Super Mario 64 was that at least some levels required you to redo some platforming sections again. The worst offender is Tick Tock Clock, where most stars aside from the red coins one are just laid out on a fairly linear level that you have to scale every time from the start. I am actually also working on a Sm64 mod and while I'm certainly not a professional level designer something that I always tried to do was to avoid this - the path to the challenge which gives you the star should be quick with barely any backtracking, but getting the star should still be a challenge. Granted, I didn't always do that well (I'm an amateur after all and still learning) but I consider that one a very important aspect of open world design. Banjo-Kazooie and Jak and Daxter did that better (no surprise here, SM64 was the first of its kind and of course firsts always have their rough edges) and if the next Mario is indeed more open I'd like to see that aspect strengthened.
But I digress, a weakpoint of the level design for me in Super Mario 64 was that at least some levels required you to redo some platforming sections again. The worst offender is Tick Tock Clock, where most stars aside from the red coins one are just laid out on a fairly linear level that you have to scale every time from the start. I am actually also working on a Sm64 mod and while I'm certainly not a professional level designer something that I always tried to do was to avoid this - the path to the challenge which gives you the star should be quick with barely any backtracking, but getting the star should still be a challenge. Granted, I didn't always do that well (I'm an amateur after all and still learning) but I consider that one a very important aspect of open world design. Banjo-Kazooie and Jak and Daxter did that better (no surprise here, SM64 was the first of its kind and of course firsts always have their rough edges) and if the next Mario is indeed more open I'd like to see that aspect strengthened.
I'm glad this thread exists because for the life of me I, someone who actually didn't play 64 but has seen videos and I guess I sort of did play it since I had the DS version, didn't know what the deal was with 64 vs Galaxy or 3D world. This thread's really helped me understand the differences.
Tbh. I don't even know what I want.
I know I want a more cohesive game world, a la Super Mario Brothers 3 (to a lesser extent), Super Mario World, Mario 64, (I imagine, haven't played) Super Mario Sunshine, and (to a lesser extent) Galaxy 1.
Mario has moved towards a semblance of a World Map, which is good since the days of the flowchart level select screen were dark days indeed in this regard, but it leaves me unsatisfied. I want unique, cohesive world and art design in Mario again.
But, I also might like the 3D World/Galaxy 2 style of level better at the end of the day. So I want a hub, I want some more freedom, but I also want tighter platforming. Basically, I want SMW+Galaxy 1+2 combined in some way.
I know I want a more cohesive game world, a la Super Mario Brothers 3 (to a lesser extent), Super Mario World, Mario 64, (I imagine, haven't played) Super Mario Sunshine, and (to a lesser extent) Galaxy 1.
Mario has moved towards a semblance of a World Map, which is good since the days of the flowchart level select screen were dark days indeed in this regard, but it leaves me unsatisfied. I want unique, cohesive world and art design in Mario again.
But, I also might like the 3D World/Galaxy 2 style of level better at the end of the day. So I want a hub, I want some more freedom, but I also want tighter platforming. Basically, I want SMW+Galaxy 1+2 combined in some way.
Schopenhauerian
Member
Good range of opinion in this thread! So I'm actually curious what folks here think of the new triple jump, as it appeared in the Switch preview video.
Some of the previous discussion on it, from earlier threads:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=221073840&postcount=865
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=221029296&postcount=189
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=221135550&postcount=454
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=221178555&postcount=460
jabberwocker
Banned
Did the op not see the switch preview? lol
Did you actually play Mario 64? It's all about obstacle courses. Even in worlds with several stars and objectives, the paths become obstacle courses. Luckily, since it's platforming we want from a Mario game.
Kind of a late reply but you know, the Bowser levels have been mentioned as being vestigial remains of previous betas of SM64 where they thought that making mario work in 3D with linear level design would work better. And yes, effectively, these levels are precursors to Mario 3D world et. al. So they are kind of a special case to consider.
The first screenshot you're posting from whomp's fortress is a part of a level which can be safely ignored if you take alternate paths at the beginning. So, I get you when you say that there's linear-ish parts in SM64 but it's not the meat of the games. The hub world and the open expanses were.
GabeTheGrouch76
Member
Returned to bump this thread with an important message:
lol
GregLombardi
Member
dat bump
TheDinoman
Member
"Wishful thinking", indeed.
Ocarina_117
Banned
Damn.
b00_thegh0st
Member
The walking thread
Gamecube boxes in Japan were much smaller than in NA.
EndlessFloydian
Member
Japan GCN cases were small.
Really!? You learn something new every day. Crazy!
We've seen it. The levels are sandbox ala Mario 64.
