darkwing-buck
Member
Chloe>Lara. That said I did enjoy both of the latest TR games.
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Modern Lara Croft is such a dull protagonist
- Thread starter SeeNoWeevil
- Start date
I don't recall Lara Croft having ever been defined by anything more than her tits.
They took away the tits and thought that fixed the character. They forgot that she still needed a personality. She isn't a strong female character just because she isn't sexualized.
TBH, I found the tortute porn in TR13 far more disturbing than her old bimbo design. Big boobs is not cool but excessive violence against women is okay?
They took away the tits and thought that fixed the character. They forgot that she still needed a personality. She isn't a strong female character just because she isn't sexualized.
TBH, I found the tortute porn in TR13 far more disturbing than her old bimbo design. Big boobs is not cool but excessive violence against women is okay?
GhostOfSparta305
Banned
Better than the zero characterisation we saw in the previous games. She could be better written for sure, but I don't understand the complaints about how she's not bad ass enough. We have enough of those characters already. I don't have an issue with Lara being more empathetic or vulnerable than your average vg protagonist, the problem is the gameplay tells a different story.
Oh, yeah, I definitely had a blast playing TR13. I never really liked the older games, try as I might.
Haven't played RotTR yet but I definitely will. I haven't read anything about the story so I don't know if her character has improved.
J_ToSaveTheDay
Member
Was not a fan of classical Lara either, but can't disagree that new Lara isn't really selling me on the protagonist of the franchise. I like both TR2013 and RotTR a lot, but it hasn't been for characterization or story reasons, really.
Vlaphor
Member
That is not true. Granted, they were always front and center, since they'd be the easiest things to sell on a magazine cover or such, but in the actual games themselves, Lara Croft is a fun character. A video game protagonist who actually enjoys what they did, and this was a big deal, especially in the angsty 90's. Their one big screwup was when they tried to reverse this with Angel of Darkness, but that (alongside the crappy, glitchy gameplay) turned people off Lara Croft. That's why the reboot fixed this by making her enjoy her work again.
Chloe feels like what Lara should be. She is a well-rounded female character, confident and adventurous, playful and sexy. She can be all those things and not be bland, weak or objectified.
i honestly am kinda confused when i hear this kind of thing. I played the TR trilogy on PS1 and Crystal dynamics reboot trilogy, and i never once saw anything to Lara besides being a sassy british treasure hunter with skin deep sex appeal and botox lips
The modern lara may not be anything special, but the reverence i hear about classic lara i never will get, as if she was somehow significantly superior.
The modern lara may not be anything special, but the reverence i hear about classic lara i never will get, as if she was somehow significantly superior.
Vlaphor
Member
...and yet that is infinitely better than what we have right now. I'll take the sassy British sex symbol who's having fun with what she's doing rather than the petulant child who whines about and hates everything.
We aren't saying that classic Lara Croft is some amazingly well written character. She's a collection of tropes, but ones that are well done and enjoyable. We (or at least I) are saying that the Lara from ROTR is an absolute garbage character who drags down the game more than anything else.
I dunno. People have messed with the newest reboot so much for so many reasons(many having to do with wanting to go back to the days of tank controls) that it feels like a lot of the complaints are overblown just because this version of TR is not the same as the previous.
I get that modern Lara is more divisive and many of those criticisms i feel are warranted, but she's also much younger than classic lara, and not supposed to be a self assured fully established character in the same way.
RoboticWater
Banned
I thought the older one was at least a bit more fun (maybe I'm remembering incorrectly). Current Croft is just breathy and melodramatic the whole time. Regardless of whether or not Lara always sucked, I would hope that the actively developing series would attempt to improve the character better over her present incarnation.
If you're going to give us a super serious character, then we'll need a narrative context that actually supports that. We'll also probably need more subdued, survival-horror-esque combat as well so the character isn't flip-flopping between relatively down to earth acrobatic archeologist and super hero serial murderer. I'd much prefer those changes because the action hero type is a well-trodden trope that doesn't easily engender unique design.
Barring story and gameplay changes though, it's probably easier to just make Lara a quippy action hero. At least then, there would be internal consistency.
Vlaphor
Member
It's not about being a self-assured or fully established character, it's about being a character period. Lara in ROTR has no character arc, she leaves the game the same person going in. She has no personality to speak of, she just complains and whines about everything. I'm sure a good chunk the problems have to do with the VA herself, who turns in an entirely dour performance that is at least consistent with the script she was given, but is still a performance without life or energy (unless she's complaining).
At the end of the day, I was able to beat the game, since I did enjoy the gameplay...but I recently had a chance to purchase the season pass really cheap and passed up on it since I wanted nothing else to do with that character.
Fahzgoolin
Banned
plasmawave
Banned
She has no character, that's the problem.
George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
Doesn't help that the voice acting sucks and Luddington can't do a convincing accent to save her life.
Backlogger
Member
Loved TR 2013 and RotTR
Don't think the stories were as bad as most think
Don't think the stories were as bad as most think
old manatee
Banned
This analogy would make sense if McClain/Willis doesn't act how he does. In 4 he is past weary bad dad and has become gleeful in doing what he does best. He delights in running over his opponents and then launching his car at a helicopter, because he's John fucking McClain. Pretty sure he even said something similar to Oliphant, the villain. In 5, the movie is about his son living in the shadow of such a man.
NuLaura is an amalgam of "hero" clichés served cold.
Is Barney hide & seek the only other "action adventure" game that exists on Earth A?
Moon Presence
Member
To be honest, the original Lara didn't had much going on for her anyways, the voice acting was better and that's it. But yeah, two games in and they don't even bother. She's the definition of a lifeless character.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
Is she still the Laura that is supposedly growing into the Laura that is in the ps1 games? Or is she already there?
SolidChamp
Banned
Having just finished Rise of the Tomb Raider, I feel like the narrative and characterizations were SORELY lacking this time around.
I LOVED TR 2013, and I felt that story worked far better and Lara's motivations made far more sense as someone who is forced into an impossible situation and must fight to survive and to save her friend. Someone brought up Sam as a good example of Lara's source of determination. Yamatai was a far more interesting locale, as well.
I didn't really come to find Luddington's performance problematic until playing through Rise. Her breathy, desperate delivery in the first one made sense. Here it's one-note, overwrought, and played out.
Rise was, on the whole, sort of disappointing. It threw a lot of cool gameplay mechanics at the action adventure genre and it blends them together quite well; it's a fun game to play, but not to follow for narrative thrust or impact. So, after a while, it becomes a bit of a slog.
Uncharted 4 holds the gene crown this year.
I LOVED TR 2013, and I felt that story worked far better and Lara's motivations made far more sense as someone who is forced into an impossible situation and must fight to survive and to save her friend. Someone brought up Sam as a good example of Lara's source of determination. Yamatai was a far more interesting locale, as well.
I didn't really come to find Luddington's performance problematic until playing through Rise. Her breathy, desperate delivery in the first one made sense. Here it's one-note, overwrought, and played out.
Rise was, on the whole, sort of disappointing. It threw a lot of cool gameplay mechanics at the action adventure genre and it blends them together quite well; it's a fun game to play, but not to follow for narrative thrust or impact. So, after a while, it becomes a bit of a slog.
Uncharted 4 holds the gene crown this year.
Isn't she British? I don't really understand why she'd have to use an accent to portray someone from her own country.
Anyway, I think the problem (as stated by others) is that the stories are mediocre even when compared to its peers in the genre and the characters fall flat pretty hard. One of Uncharted's strengths is that people love those characters, folks were overjoyed at seeing Chloe in that new Uncharted footage. A lot of other franchises are beloved for their casts as much as their gameplay or premise.
As it stands now, TR2013 and ROTTR look, play, and sound great but they desperately need to improve their characters and storytelling. Or just jettison those and return Lara to a fun, but one-dimensional archetype like she was in the past.
DanielJr82
Member
Still a better personality than Lightning (FFXIII) and Rey (Star Wars). Meh, it's still just a bunch of female characters written by dudes, methinks.
George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
She is but has some strong American influence on her real accent that she instead sounds like an American trying to do an English accent.
Well, current Lara is written by a woman.
matrix-cat
Member
Keeley Hawes Lara was never a super deep character, but she was bright and likable, and gave off a sense that she was out there doing what she wanted to in life. Finding ancient treasures was her passion; she'd let out these delightful "Oooh" noises whenever she found something shiny. Those games never went for any spectacular emotional highs, but I still remember the bit at the end of Legend where she just fucking loses it and starts firing her gun for added emphasis as she's threatening the villain. "WHERE *BLAM* IS *BLAM* MY *BLAM* MOTHER?"
Luddington Lara is just in "I've got to..." mode 24/7. She recites every line in the same flat, breathless tone. Seriously, even the flavour text when you pick up a collectible; she sounds the same whether she's reading a paragraph about an ancient Greek urn or talking about how she's got to find shelter for the night. There's no hint of levity, or any kind of personality beyond the general goal of finding treasure that will prove her Dad wasn't nuts (not because she wants to find treasure). I feel like the writers aimed for 'driven' but missed and hit 'robotic'.
And she clearly pronounces the 't' in 'mortar & pestle', which is just... I mean, come on, do an extra take in the voiceover booth.
Luddington Lara is just in "I've got to..." mode 24/7. She recites every line in the same flat, breathless tone. Seriously, even the flavour text when you pick up a collectible; she sounds the same whether she's reading a paragraph about an ancient Greek urn or talking about how she's got to find shelter for the night. There's no hint of levity, or any kind of personality beyond the general goal of finding treasure that will prove her Dad wasn't nuts (not because she wants to find treasure). I feel like the writers aimed for 'driven' but missed and hit 'robotic'.
And she clearly pronounces the 't' in 'mortar & pestle', which is just... I mean, come on, do an extra take in the voiceover booth.
Completely agree. I don't know why people shit on Lara. I like how she is portrayed. I do agree that the surrounding characters would use some better lines but Lara herself does a great job. I'm hoping that she gets to play Lara herself in the movie.Connor isn't even solemn, he's just around people who treat him like shit, marginalize and use him, and don't respect his culture, they had an entire side quest dedicated to showing his character around people who don't do that.
The writing isn't even terrible, her progression as a fearful college student interested in archaelogy who's forced to survive and fight for her life
to determined woman who actively seeks adventure, doesn't take shit from anybody and is genuinely interested in learning the world's secrets makes complete sense.
just based on her body language, tone, and expressions alone.
That role is already taken by Alicia Vikander. I don't know how good she'll be, but rolling the dice is almost guaranteed to be better than Ludington.
You didn't enjoy exploring the lumber mill?
Unknown Soldier
Member
I don't think anyone ever thought Lara Croft was that interesting a character to begin with.
Without Harrison Ford's charisma, the Indiana Jones archetype isn't that easy to pull off. That's one thing Nolan North nailed when portraying Nathan Drake.
Without Harrison Ford's charisma, the Indiana Jones archetype isn't that easy to pull off. That's one thing Nolan North nailed when portraying Nathan Drake.
Demoskinos
Member
Chloe is such a throw away character. She doesn't matter to the story at all and could be replaced by literally anyone. Especially since they dumped the tease in Uncharted 3 of Drake falling for her.
I just want classic Tomb Raider back focused on ruins, exploration, and puzzles.
Right now it's just a bad copy of Uncharted and it's sad because I really love the franchise and this reboot is not working for me.
I don't care about catchy dialogue every 10 steps or fighting soldiers in every room. I just want to get lost inside immense ruins with a lot of traps and puzzles to uncover, enigmatic stories to find and no one else but me in there to help.
Right now it's just a bad copy of Uncharted and it's sad because I really love the franchise and this reboot is not working for me.
I don't care about catchy dialogue every 10 steps or fighting soldiers in every room. I just want to get lost inside immense ruins with a lot of traps and puzzles to uncover, enigmatic stories to find and no one else but me in there to help.
The reboot was one of the dullest games I've ever played. Had no desire to get anything else in that series.
The character, the mechanics, the story, it's like they went out to make everything as mediocre as possible. No way could they have managed it otherwise, those games are without even a tinge of excitement. Bland to the max.
The character, the mechanics, the story, it's like they went out to make everything as mediocre as possible. No way could they have managed it otherwise, those games are without even a tinge of excitement. Bland to the max.
NinjaBoiX
Member
I can appreciate what you're saying about the poor characterisation but let's not pretend they ruined the character, she's always been a rich, paper-thin toff who likes to collect old stuff but she used to have pointier tits and her face didn't move.
Not sure I understand, if a character isn't central to the plot they can't be well written? I mean you could probably replace nuLara with a cardboard cut out and the only thing that would change is the cut out might be more charismatic. So I don't really see that as much of a defends for Lara.
She does sound like every word is an effort, I assumed it was down to her poshness but I guess not.
Keeley is a really good actress but her voice is a bit to mature for a teen Lara. I think she did the Temple of Osiris though.
jonnyp
Member
Completely agree. Not helped by Luddington's mediocre voice acting either.
Valkyri von Thanatos
Member
A rich toff who likes to collect old stuff is a pretty different character than what we have now.
Not that one is inherently better than the other.
The plot of the old games was very thin, that's true. But it was also auxillary, with barely any cutscenes, just enough to establish context - unlike the reboots, where the story is very prominent. With that much focus on it, i'd like it to be better.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
People actually considers Uncharted Chloe's as "well written"?
Huh...
Huh...
Judging by both of the rebooted TR games, she is an awful writer. The characters are boring, the narrative is weak, and the whole atmosphere is just dreary, rather than exciting. The first one in particular feels like the script was knocked out over one weekend. It's the very example of how video game writing is mostly on a par, at best, to DTV movies. I liked her dad's stuff, though.
Vikander seems a bit miscast to me, just because she's the current "hot" actress (I mean talent, not looks...) on the back of Ex Machina. Would have liked to see Emily Blunt in the role.
Drillary Clinton
Banned
The rebooted series is just flat out not good. Lara having about as much charisma as a block of wood is one of the issues.
Emulated Hype
Member
Old Lara was a sociopathic asshole who did things for the thrill and prestige. That was the extent of her characterization and insofar as her modern iteration is concerned it made for a more compelling character.
As it stands right now, we don't have any reason to give a shit as to why she's on a globe-trotting adventure. More-so because she's spending a good chunk of time whining about things. At least if she were irreverent about the adventure it'd feel less painfully awkward for the player than sitting through ham-fisted emotional scenes. I mean did anybody honestly care about that kid who "sacrificed" himself over some random tools in the first game?
Make Lara a stone-cold bitch, dump the side-kicks and I might actually start caring about the character again.
As it stands right now, we don't have any reason to give a shit as to why she's on a globe-trotting adventure. More-so because she's spending a good chunk of time whining about things. At least if she were irreverent about the adventure it'd feel less painfully awkward for the player than sitting through ham-fisted emotional scenes. I mean did anybody honestly care about that kid who "sacrificed" himself over some random tools in the first game?
Make Lara a stone-cold bitch, dump the side-kicks and I might actually start caring about the character again.
For the record, I rather enjoyed the Legend-Trilogy Lara, even though the mommy-issues plot drove me up the wall. Melodrama Lara needs to go.
Schopenhauerian
Member
It would be nice if Lara's adventures were (in greater measure) initiated and sustained by her own curiosity, ambition, wit, insight, ingenuity, empathy, sophistication, intelligence:
http://www.tombraiderchronicles.com/lara/old_bio.html
CORE DESIGN BIO: "...He remembered Lara from his lecture - her incessant yet insightful questions had made quite an impression upon him... Her Himalayan odyssey was both miraculous and enlightening, as the young woman not only survived, but gained a perspective on herself and the world that made her past appear shallow and naive. Out of the darkness of her ordeal, she saw her future reflected in a different light. She felt profoundly that there was more for her in this life than the coddled existence that had become her numbing habit. She realized that she was only truly alive when she was travelling alone. Over the eight following years she acquired an intimate knowledge of ancient civilizations across the globe. Her family soon disowned their prodigal daughter, hoping she would wed The Earl of Farrington. She turned to writing to fund her trips. Famed for discovering several ancient sites of profound archaeological interest and gaining some notoriety for having slain an actual Bigfoot in North America, she made a name for herself by publishing travel books & detailed journals of her exploits. Lara Croft became the seeker of truths, both large and small, and in that pursuit she continues to this day."
http://www.tombraiderchronicles.com/lara/info.htmlCRYSTAL DYNAMICS BIO: "...At the age of nine she survived a plane crash in the Himalayas that took the life of her mother. In perhaps the first story of her prodigious indomitability, she somehow survived a solo ten-day trek across the Himalayan mountains, one of the most hostile environments on the planet. The story goes that when she arrived in Katmandu she went to the nearest bar and made a polite telephone call to her father asking if it would be convenient for him to come and pick her up. For six years following the plane crash, Lara rarely left her father's side, traveling around the world from one archeological dig site to another. During this period she was ostensibly given a standard education from private tutors, but it would probably be more accurate to say she was her father's full time apprentice..."
We'd like our heroic characters to exhibit curiosity, ambition, wit, insight, ingenuity, empathy, sophistication, intelligence... A given character may exhibit these virtues when under 'genuine' duress (in a 'well-written' dramatic scenario), or alternatively in the context of lighter challenges (as in the case of an Indiana Jones/superhero-style pulp/adventure scenario): either way, they're likely to be pretty charismatic, maybe even admirable, if in fact they exhibit these virtues in some way. That said, it's perhaps fair to say that some folks have had genuine difficulty in seeing the 'virtue' in new Lara:
Same. Best thing about classic Lara is there isn't much effort spent on characterisation and your just left to explore those fantasticly designed levels with little interruption. As someone said earlier in the thread, the levels where the best character in early TR.