They're both archaic in their own ways, really. Both a bit stuck in the past with the references and the tropes as well. Mario regressed badly in terms of the range of movement and control given to the player, it actually feels quite sluggish at times. YL features the same problems that rare platformers started developing in the late nineties, I definitely admit I'm struggling to get through it.
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Mario 3D World is more "archaic" than Yooka-Laylee but nobody complained.
- Thread starter nkarafo
- Start date
This thread is bringing out some of the weirdest opinions I've ever seen
But those same critics gobble up the yearly Ubisoft collectathon style games though.
Double Donut
Member
Boom.
dead souls
Member
Yeah, if anything I'd say that Mario Sunshine is one of two bad gamea out of all the mainline Mario titles. SMB 2 Japan is the other.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
So, like, OP, you are saying that what should happened is that if say, 3D world got a 9 from some reviewers, then the score must be reduced to 8 or 7 by saying "this game is archaic!" before you're stop saying that it's unfair that Yooka-Laylee is being criticized for being archaic, yeah?
Blood Diamonds
Banned
what
dude the levels are designed around the fixed camera. It's not the same thing as having a shitty finicky camera that doesn't know what the hell it's trying to do.
dude the levels are designed around the fixed camera. It's not the same thing as having a shitty finicky camera that doesn't know what the hell it's trying to do.
The Real Abed
Perma-Junior
I haven't played or seen much footage of Yooka-Laylee yet, but Mario 3D World is my favorite Mario game in a long time.
I need a Switch sequel after Oddysee.. Odesyee... um... Odyssee.. uh the new Mario game comes out.
I need a Switch sequel after Oddysee.. Odesyee... um... Odyssee.. uh the new Mario game comes out.
The Real Abed
Perma-Junior
So are we not getting a Switch version?
Because that would be the dumbest thing ever.
This game was made to be at home on a Nintendo system. And not a dead one.
Poimandres
Member
Come on man, 3D World isn't flawless. The controls aren't perfect and neither is the camera, not even getting into issues with the difficulty curve etc. The camera clearly works better on a system like the 3DS. It's not terrible but it doesn't allow for the level of certainty you get in the 2D games.
That said, this sure is an interesting thread. People seen heavily invested in defending YL. Just accept that not all of the reviewers enjoyed the game that much. It's okay to love the game, but there are criticisms that don't seem unfounded.
Innovation isn't really the crux of the issue. There's a reason why the quite unique Mario Sunshine is often criticised while 3D World had great reviews.
Magicpaint
Member
I don't think this is any less weird an opinion than the other.
FreedomFighter
Member
People in here seriously saying Mario 3D World has bad controls.
Y'all either never played the game or are just making shit up.
Y'all either never played the game or are just making shit up.
It has a run button on a 3d Mario game. Maybe you like it but that was just ugh
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
D.Lo
Member
Nintendo is just flat out wrong in the chart.
At best it's a continuum, slowly morphing from full open world objective based levels of Mario 64 with 3D hub world to NSMB-style overworld plus straight courses. If they have to be broken out, 3D Land/World should be the ones on their own line, since they're NSMB made into belt scrollers.
royox
Member
It's a 3D Mario that plays as a 2D Mario. For me (warning: opinion incoming) the controls felt toned down, "heavy" and unprecise. Add the 8 Directions stuff, total lack of analogic controls and that a LOT of times the camera doesn't help to tell where you exactly are on the Z (deep) axis. I don't give it a pass just "because it's Mario and it has to be 10/10 at all cost".
As I said yesterday, I enjoyed it with friends in MP but FOR ME (warning: opinion incoming) it was a BAD single player Mario experience mostly because of the horrible controls and the "almost isometric" camera.
Everything gets even worse if I play it just AFTER playing Galaxy..or even 64.
I've never understood the "true" 3D Mario arguments. I can enjoy the 64/Sunshine style of games as well as the Galaxy series. What I cannot enjoy, is a game like 3D World with slow, constrained movement and lack of athletic platforming abilities. Gameplay is what makes Mario games fun to me, and 3D World was a huge step back in that area.
I might be one of the 3 people on GAF who didn't like SM3DW, but it is polished. Got to the end, but never beat it. Felt like a slog the whole way. Never liked the awkward camera. But Yooka-Laylee looks weak for a whole other set of reasons. lack of polish looks to be one of them.
royox
Member
But can this unpolishness be patched or it's a total unrepairable mess?
Z..
Member
It's a 3D game set to the rules of the old 2D games and the levels are (fantastically well) designed around that feature. You don't like it? Fair enough. Doesn't make it bad in any way.
I really didn't enjoy it much though. Liked the personality (love Conker) but the uninteresting level design and average floaty gameplay didn't do it for me. Also, don't you mean fourth game in the series?
I wouldn't say 3D World was archaic. In my opinion the collectathon style gameplay and level design emerged from the difficulty of creating a platformer in 3D due to the technology not being up to the task and the problems created for players by the addition of depth. Early 3D platformers became more adventure games than platformers with tasks revolving more around running around and collecting stuff than making tricky jumps. Over time Nintendo has been slowly moving 3D Mario in the direction of fully realizing platforming in 3D space, and 3D Land and 3D World were the purest realization of what they've been building towards.
Also, 3D World is an absolute juggernaut of content compared to previous Mario games.
Also, 3D World is an absolute juggernaut of content compared to previous Mario games.
Good job spreading misinformation.
Of course we are getting a Switch version. NewGame probably didnt change his Wii U pledge in time and he was auto converted to Steam.
Son.Ralph.Funk
Member
There is nothing "archaic" about Super Mario 3D World.
Some brands are hardly criticized, and if actually good, the bad things became invisible...
New brands are easier to criticize, people won't complain too much if you throw shit at them.
If a very bad mario game will come out, it will have at least an 80% as a vote... (New Super Mario Bros. 2 is an example it got 78 on metacritic, but it's really disappointing in my hopinion, any other brand would have got a 70 on the best.)
That said I didnt' played Yooka Laylee, so maybe the complains are correct true... :\
New brands are easier to criticize, people won't complain too much if you throw shit at them.
If a very bad mario game will come out, it will have at least an 80% as a vote... (New Super Mario Bros. 2 is an example it got 78 on metacritic, but it's really disappointing in my hopinion, any other brand would have got a 70 on the best.)
That said I didnt' played Yooka Laylee, so maybe the complains are correct true... :\
I think this calculator's broken.
I'm not sure what that graph refer to (can't read japanese) however I'm sure Galaxy began a progressive simplification process which culminated in the 3D Land/World games.
It splits the 3D Mario games up into "linear course style" and "sandbox-style" games.
Galaxy is kind of in the middle though, I guess...
How about we not listen to people that include the guy who said that the Koopa kids aren't actually Bowser's kids, and that Toad is asexual.
TheRedSnifit
Member
You don't get to pull the "It's just, like, my opinion, maaaaaan" card after you claim reviewers would have given it a 5 or a 6 if "it didn't have the Mario name." The latter isn't simply an opinion, it's a claim that the game is of objectively low quality.
dampflokfreund
Banned
Hate those types of comments. Just respect other people's opinions and stop implying they never played the game. Because, mostly that isn't true at all, and these people just have a different opinion than you, even if these opinions sound horrible to you.
I'm still in the camp of the no true 3D Mario people. I enjoyed it, but certainly far, far less than the other 3D Mario games, so I'm happy they go back to the more open formular with NPCs and stuff found in the old games.
Seriously, why would the Galaxy games be in the same grouping as the "3D" games?
Yes, SMG might be a bit more focused and linear than SM64, and SMS, but it still uses the same repeating level multiple times gameplay mechanic. That alone makes it closer to those two games than the 3D ones.
Yes, SMG might be a bit more focused and linear than SM64, and SMS, but it still uses the same repeating level multiple times gameplay mechanic. That alone makes it closer to those two games than the 3D ones.
Holy shit, I thought that was just jump cuts from different sequences of the game. That's horrible.
It doesn't actually reuse the levels, though. Each mission loads a completely different linear level that at most will share a starting point. The gameplay and level design is more like 3D World, while the level select is like 64. Much like how SMW looks like SMW in Mario Maker but has NSMBU physics
D.Lo
Member
Plus analogue movement, camera control, Stars as objectives instead of flagpoles...
Galaxy 1 even has a fully 3D hub world. And Sunshine had the no-fludd levels which were linear.
The chart is just pure nonsense. The Galaxies are slightly more like the NSMB/3D games than 64/Sunshine, but are much closer to 64/Sunshine than they are to 3D Land/World.
Flat out wrong. SOME stars do this, others do not. Mario 64 and Sunshine do it sometimes as well. In the majority of levels in Galaxy 1 you can get a star that wasn't the 'assigned' one at the start, Galaxy 2 has less of that but is still true in many cases.It doesn't actually reuse the levels, though. Each mission loads a completely different linear level that at most will share a starting point. The gameplay and level design is more like 3D World, while the level select is like 64. Much like how SMW looks like SMW in Mario Maker but has NSMBU physics
No, most levels are linear, and some have a hidden star that usually involves a hungry luma and amounts to a fork in the path. You have to choose the correct mission to reach the path to the hidden star.
Sunshine also had it where stars were exclusive to missions due to changes in world layouts, but the big difference is in level design. No matter what Sunshine's levels were big open affairs. The vast majority of Galaxy's levels are linear, and the most open levels in the game are pretty small.
Schopenhauerian
Member
Yeah, thats where the chart is coming from. Starting with Galaxy, folks at Nintendo were consciously aiming for something more immediately accessible, something with a lower 'skill floor' (note that this is not the same thing as a lower 'skill ceiling'), by way of a reduction/elimination of the challenge of managing/directing the camera, as well as a (related) reduction/elimination of the game element of searching (i.e., exploration):
https://www.wired.com/2007/07/e3-interview-ni
Miyamoto: Weve kind of had this idea for a long time, that we wanted to, from the very beginning, have [Mario Galaxy] be something that everyone can play. And the core idea, actually, in terms of the gravity and running around on different spheres, were things that we were experimenting with back when we were working on Mario 128, and the 100 Marios demo, immediately after Mario 64. A lot of it was ideas that weve had for a long time. The main advantage of playing on globes or spheres rather than a big open 3D space is that the camera becomes less of an issue, to always see what youre doing. Its much easier for people who have a hard time with 3D space to navigate...
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-10-24-touring-the-world-with-miyamoto
"Super Mario 64 was a key turning point in the history of Super Mario," explains Miyamoto (before adding, with typical modesty: "It was a good game but we were not quite able to achieve something that was both fun and easy for both beginners and advanced players.") Miyamoto admits that the Super Mario Galaxy games, which tried to find a better balance for novice and expert, still skewed towards the latter kind of player. "But with Super Mario 3D Land we found the spirit of the original games which were easy for beginners [low skill floor] but allowed for advanced play [high skill ceiling]," he says, "all within the 3D environment."
http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/3ds/super-mario-3d-land/1/0
Koizumi: Early on [in the development of Super Mario 3D Land], we established the theme of making a 3D Super Mario game that would be close to 2D so that anyone could play. One big difference between 2D and 3D is the camera. We made adjustments as we went to the parallel-track camera we used in Super Mario Galaxy 2 so it would be easy to play.
Iwata: A parallel-track camera moves in parallel to Mario at a set distance Tezuka-san, you were in charge of 2D Super Mario games. The 3D Super Mario games have always been Miyamoto-san's sphere, while you were in a position slightly removed from them. What made you become actively involved this time?
Tezuka: I never said much with regard to the 3D Super Mario games so far, but I sensed there were a lot of 2D Super Mario elements in this game, so I had things to say. I was like, "Let me chime in!" (laughs)
Koizumi: Well I thought, "At last, we motivated him!" (laughs) This time [with 3D Land], we were putting aside the game element we carried on since Super Mario 64 of searching [i.e., exploration] and were trying to reconstruct the game with the original Super Mario elements. I think perhaps that is why Tezuka-san couldn't help but feel as if it flowed like a 2D Super Mario game...
Iwata: A parallel-track camera moves in parallel to Mario at a set distance Tezuka-san, you were in charge of 2D Super Mario games. The 3D Super Mario games have always been Miyamoto-san's sphere, while you were in a position slightly removed from them. What made you become actively involved this time?
Tezuka: I never said much with regard to the 3D Super Mario games so far, but I sensed there were a lot of 2D Super Mario elements in this game, so I had things to say. I was like, "Let me chime in!" (laughs)
Koizumi: Well I thought, "At last, we motivated him!" (laughs) This time [with 3D Land], we were putting aside the game element we carried on since Super Mario 64 of searching [i.e., exploration] and were trying to reconstruct the game with the original Super Mario elements. I think perhaps that is why Tezuka-san couldn't help but feel as if it flowed like a 2D Super Mario game...
True, 3D World is very mediocre.
3D World actually brought 2D Mario into 3D realm with tons of unique stage settings, from normal horizontal moving stage into Vertical focus. Some even played with 2D perspective and it had a huge number of difference focus every world.
While Y-L is still literally the same as the old Banjo. It still had both the pro and cons of old Banjo series where the platforming part is easy and the camera still screw around when they are doing things. When we already had galaxy and 64 teaching how 3D camera should work, they should upgrade that rather than just copy paste the whole old game design.
3D World definitely has many archaic design elements, however it does that archaic stuff to perfection. That's why people who just wanted a great game love it, and why people who wanted Mario to innovate and push the boundaries, like it always did, are unhappy about it.
Honestly, I stand in the middle: I very much appreciate the game, but it's not what I was looking for in 3D Mario, and I wouldn't rank it among my favourites.
Honestly, I stand in the middle: I very much appreciate the game, but it's not what I was looking for in 3D Mario, and I wouldn't rank it among my favourites.
Randomizer
Member
Lol at all the salty 'Nintendo gets higher scores based on their name' people. The 3D Mario series has consistently been at the top of the 3D platforming genre from its very inception. Controls, mechanics, design and polish wise nobody compares. Some games have gotten close (B&K, Crash 2) but it's barely even a competition, considering how far Nintendo blows everyone out of the water.
Whilst 3D World may seem like a regression, it was a deliberate design decision to make simpler easy to understand controls for accessibility purposes. The mechanics may be limited in the amount of actions you can preform but they still allow for a lot of depth and high end speedrun play, especially when using moves such as the cat suit lunge attack etc. IMO the game actually has the most true platforming in a 3D game. In most other 3D platformers actual platforming took a back seat to large open areas. Whilst I do believe it is the closest in capturing the essence of the genre it is far from my favourite, Super Mario 64 and the Galaxy games hold that crown.
Whilst 3D World may seem like a regression, it was a deliberate design decision to make simpler easy to understand controls for accessibility purposes. The mechanics may be limited in the amount of actions you can preform but they still allow for a lot of depth and high end speedrun play, especially when using moves such as the cat suit lunge attack etc. IMO the game actually has the most true platforming in a 3D game. In most other 3D platformers actual platforming took a back seat to large open areas. Whilst I do believe it is the closest in capturing the essence of the genre it is far from my favourite, Super Mario 64 and the Galaxy games hold that crown.