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Merely talking about racism isn't harmful. Why do people think that it is?

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N

Nephtis

Member
Deepwater said:
Paraphrasing James Baldwin, white people have trouble acknowledging their whiteness in the way that a black person being lynched has to look down at the entire crowd of angry white faces while a white individual in the crowd only has to look up at the one black person hanging from a tree.

Non whites have a better grasp of whiteness because we are forced to grapple with it everyday. White people aren't.
Click to expand...

Simply saying white people aren't capable of acknowledging their whiteness - or that they will have a hard time with it - sounds dismissive and makes it really hard for white people or anyone else to want to get on board with talking about it. To me it sounds condescending, and actually retracts from having an actual discussion. If you want to just talk about why white people are bad, then just say that - don't mask it with "let's have a discussion about race". In my mind, those are completely different things.

I'm not white, I'm Latino - and if someone, white or not wants to have a discussion about the difficulties of being a minority in this country I welcome it. I like to talk about experiences and discuss what can be done to improve race relations between all. White people aren't the only ones that are racist even if they are the overwhelming majority. Every race has some issue with the other.

Edit: I'm not talking about you specifically. It's just something I've noticed across the board (no pun intended).
 
G

GameAddict411

Member
Typical white Americans lack the education, or the knowledge of the history of the United States to be able to understand how systematic racism works. People usually cite how people of color are continuously being discriminated against in employment or opportunity, but the problem lies much deeper than that. A lot of white Americans reject the explanation of systematic racism because it implies that their life was easy, and they didn't do much to get where they are. Some see it as a threat to the supremacy of the white race, and their dominance over this country. Some also chose not to do anything because it simply doesn't affect them. All these people would rather treat these significant social issues as coincidences because it's easier to sleep at night knowing that they didn't do anything wrong by sitting by the side as a bystander. It's similar reasons why people voted for Trump in the election. They voted over fear mongering, ignorance, and pure hate.
 
I

Infinite

Member
Nephtis said:
Simply saying white people aren't capable of acknowledging their whiteness - or that they will have a hard time with it - sounds dismissive and makes it really hard for white people or anyone else to want to get on board with talking about it. To me it sounds condescending, and actually retracts from having an actual discussion. If you want to just talk about why white people are bad, then just say that - don't mask it with "let's have a discussion about race". In my mind, those are completely different things.

I'm not white, I'm Latino - and if someone, white or not wants to have a discussion about the difficulties of being a minority in this country I welcome it. I like to talk about experiences and discuss what can be done to improve race relations between all. White people aren't the only ones that are racist even if they are the overwhelming majority. Every race has some issue with the other.

Edit: I'm not talking about you specifically. It's just something I've noticed across the board (no pun intended).
Click to expand...

ugh I swear some of you just mash post reply without trying to understand what you're attempting to respond to. He's not saying that white people are the only ones that are capable of racism just that the construct of whiteness makes it possible so that the average white person will never have to be confronted with their race the same way a black person will which makes the bold true
 
D

Deepwater

Member
Nephtis said:
Simply saying white people aren't capable of acknowledging their whiteness - or that they will have a hard time with it - sounds dismissive and makes it really hard for white people or anyone else to want to get on board with talking about it. To me it sounds condescending, and actually retracts from having an actual discussion. If you want to just talk about why white people are bad, then just say that - don't mask it with "let's have a discussion about race". In my mind, those are completely different things.

I'm not white, I'm Latino - and if someone, white or not wants to have a discussion about the difficulties of being a minority in this country I welcome it. I like to talk about experiences and discuss what can be done to improve race relations between all. White people aren't the only ones that are racist even if they are the overwhelming majority. Every race has some issue with the other.

Edit: I'm not talking about you specifically. It's just something I've noticed across the board (no pun intended).
Click to expand...

I was responding to the idea that people have trouble accepting the idea that non whites have a better idea of how whiteness benefits white people than white people do.

I don't know what it's like being white. But I do know what it's like being non white in a majority white space. That alone tells me more about whiteness than your typical white person
 
I

Imm0rt4l

Member
The Artisan said:
also i think i mentioned in the splatoon thread that growing up, i used to think black people were the same as me; it wasn't until later how we are sociopolitically "different". so maybe to an extent, race itself is "social construct" as they call it?
Click to expand...
Well yeah, it's a social construct. Doesn't make it not real.
 
N

Nephtis

Member
Infinite said:
ugh I swear some of you just mash post reply without trying to understand what you're attempting to respond to. He's not saying that white people are the only ones that are capable of racism just that the construct of whiteness makes it possible so that the average white person will never have to be confronted with their race the same way a black person will.
Click to expand...

And what does a white person have to do with a latino being racist towards a black person and vice versa? or asian? etc. There's a lot more issues between people of all races where white people, or whiteness as you say, are not a factor. So why should they be focused upon every time? Why would a black person also have to be the focus as far as victims are concerned? As I said, I think saying "let's have a discussion about race / racism" and "white people don't know their racial privilege" (to paraphrase) are two different discussions.

Deepwater said:
I was responding to the idea that people have trouble accepting the idea that non whites have a better idea of how whiteness benefits white people than white people do.

I don't know what it's like being white. But I do know what it's like being non white in a majority white space. That alone tells me more about whiteness than your typical white person
Click to expand...

I mean, I think I see where you come from, and I hope you see where I'm coming from too.
 
highrider

highrider

Banned
It doesn't make me uncomfortable. As a white dude I tend to just listen and observe. I do confront it at times, my children are mixed, their mom is black, so if it's overt I confront it. Whites have represented themselves negatively and positively ad infinitum. The only way you can really impact racism and bigotry is through action, and even then it's neglegable.

I'm kind of fortunate to have grown up in the DC area. It's here, but not something you encounter much. If it helps people to discuss it I think they should, but I'm 50. Been there done that, bought the t-shirt.
 
H

Heroman

Banned
Nephtis said:
And what does a white person have to do with a latino being racist towards a black person and vice versa? or asian? etc. There's a lot more issues between people of all races where white people, or whiteness as you say, are a factor. So why should they be focused upon every time? Why would a black person also have to be the focus as far as victims are concerned? As I said, I think saying "let's have a discussion about race / racism" and "white people don't know their racial privilege" (to paraphrase) are two different discussions.



I mean, I think I see where you come from, and I hope you see where I'm coming from too.
Click to expand...
White people are the dominant in American culture so if you're going to have a talk about race in the white people need to be in the center of it.
 
E

evangelion13

Neo Member
One Eyed Willy said:
Thread about racism, first post groups an entire race together and assumes judgement. Off to a great start.
Click to expand...

I'm not the racist, you're the racist!

But seriously, who do you think has a problem talking about racism? It probably isn't the people of color living in a country with an unresolved racist past. It probably isn't the victims of systemic oppression since it is a normal part of their lives.

No, this is a problem for white people and it always has been.
 
H

Heroman

Banned
highrider said:
It doesn't make me uncomfortable. As a white dude I tend to just listen and observe. I do confront it at times, my children are mixed, their mom is black, so if it's overt I confront it. Whites have represented themselves negatively and positively ad infinitum. The only way you can really impact racism and bigotry is through action, and even then it's neglegable.

I'm kind of fortunate to have grown up in the DC area. It's here, but not something you encounter much. If it helps people to discuss it I think they should, but I'm 50. Been there done that, bought the t-shirt.
Click to expand...
You encounter it everyday especially in DC.
 
M

MKIL65

Member
If we can't talk about the insecurity in the hearts of white moderates, then we'll never make any progress. As MLK said, it's a stumbling block.

If MLK still existed today, and he said the same things back then as he would today, he would be targeted by millions of people as a candidate that they want murdered.

Nothing would really change. Because they don't want to admit to their insecurity and put themselves in his and other minorities shoes.
 
I

Infinite

Member
Nephtis said:
And what does a white person have to do with a latino being racist towards a black person and vice versa? or asian? etc. There's a lot more issues between people of all races where white people, or whiteness as you say, are a factor. So why should they be focused upon every time? Why would a black person also have to be the focus as far as victims are concerned? As I said, I think saying "let's have a discussion about race / racism" and "white people don't know their racial privilege" (to paraphrase) are two different discussions.



I mean, I think I see where you come from, and I hope you see where I'm coming from too.
Click to expand...

I don't see where you're coming from because I feel you aren't actually understanding me lol. The thread is about why people think merely talking about racism is harmful and whiteness and white fragility are good answers to that query.
 
highrider

highrider

Banned
Heroman said:
You encounter it everyday especially in DC.
Click to expand...

I don't, at least compared to say South Carolina. But I'm white. I have some degree of insight, but I'm still white so any statement I make about race is inherently limited. Which is also why I find it more effective to listen than discuss.
 
C

Cyframe

Member
Nephtis said:
Simply saying white people aren't capable of acknowledging their whiteness - or that they will have a hard time with it - sounds dismissive and makes it really hard for white people or anyone else to want to get on board with talking about it. To me it sounds condescending, and actually retracts from having an actual discussion. If you want to just talk about why white people are bad, then just say that - don't mask it with "let's have a discussion about race". In my mind, those are completely different things.

I'm not white, I'm Latino - and if someone, white or not wants to have a discussion about the difficulties of being a minority in this country I welcome it. I like to talk about experiences and discuss what can be done to improve race relations between all. White people aren't the only ones that are racist even if they are the overwhelming majority. Every race has some issue with the other.

Edit: I'm not talking about you specifically. It's just something I've noticed across the board (no pun intended).
Click to expand...

It isn't dismissive though, to mention difficulties white people have with acknowledging whiteness. And the difference between white racism and prejudice from minorities is that we aren't creating legislation that didn't deem Black people a full person.

Every single minority has met white people who were ignorant about race and approached the topic as gently as possible and we are still read as antagonistic or keeping up the divide when we talk about race.

People can maybe be a bit more open about experiences without the white gaze on us, but that isn't a reason to discount experiences, just because you(speaking generally not you in particular) didn't like how someone presented it. I learned a lot about trans rights for example through exchanges with people who dealt with things that I didn't have to. Was it uncomfortable, yes, but I made the effort to learn, and I did.

Nephtis said:
And what does a white person have to do with a latino being racist towards a black person and vice versa? or asian? etc. There's a lot more issues between people of all races where white people, or whiteness as you say, are not a factor. So why should they be focused upon every time? Why would a black person also have to be the focus as far as victims are concerned? As I said, I think saying "let's have a discussion about race / racism" and "white people don't know their racial privilege" (to paraphrase) are two different discussions.
Click to expand...

See, this is when people can get a little frustrated because things like intraracial discrimination can be motived by white supremacy. Look at colorism in our communities. That lighter is seen as better and smarter, a racial holdover from paper bag tests.

And when you add things to a conversation that you may not have researched or missed when others are coming to the table with education and personal experiences, that's when a conversation can tense up. That's not our problem though.
 
B

BKK

Member
Deepwater said:
there is not a single negative systemic racial bias in america that affects white people. that is by design, not by accident. and because of that, white people are going to be the center of that conversation
Click to expand...

If you want to stop rasicm, then it sounds like you're half way there!
 
H

Heroman

Banned
highrider said:
I don't, at least compared to say South Carolina. But I'm white. I have some degree of insight, but I'm still white so any statement I make about race is inherently limited. Which is also why I find it more effective to listen than discuss.
Click to expand...
You see it in the form of institutionalized racism which exist heavily in DC.
 
R

Reeks

Member
BKK said:
Of course not, I'm saying that if I'm seeing someone abused because of their race or any other difference, I don't need someone to tell me if it's right or wrong, it's just common sense.
Click to expand...
What if it's hiding in plain sight? Everyone needs perspective.
 
H

Heroman

Banned
Nephtis said:
I'm sorry, I disagree.
Click to expand...
Let use a another example of inequality in America. All women do not agree on feminist ideas and there is alot of in fighting it but all of is it meaning less if the dominant group Men are not part of conversation.
 
L

L Thammy

Member
I'm glad that you're the least racist person in the world BKK, but that doesn't really solve a problem created by many people.
 
F

FrenchMovieTheme

Member
I'm white and have no problem talking about racism and, more specific to the US, systematic racism.

The problem you will find with many whites (and honestly, a shockingly high number of non whites) is that when you try to have a rational conversation about racism, it is almost an affront to the "hard work" they've put in to get where they are. Being the benefactor of white privilege doesn't mean you didn't work hard or have it easy but it does mean that the system is rigged in such a way that you had it easier.

It's nearly impossible to have a frank/open conversation about it even if you present your point an amicable as you can
 
M

MHWilliams

Member
Nephtis said:
And what does a white person have to do with a latino being racist towards a black person and vice versa? or asian? etc. There's a lot more issues between people of all races where white people, or whiteness as you say, are not a factor. So why should they be focused upon every time? Why would a black person also have to be the focus as far as victims are concerned? As I said, I think saying "let's have a discussion about race / racism" and "white people don't know their racial privilege" (to paraphrase) are two different discussions.
Click to expand...

Racism of any sort isn't particularly good. The differentiation is largely down to the structural output of racism, which in the United States is coming largely from those who are classically seen as white.

Given the fact that many of the institutions of power are filled by those who classify as "Caucasian" on the census, it becomes imperative to understand the effects of their racism.

It's a question of logical priority. If you have two people coming at you, one with a bat and the other with a tank, neither is particularly good, but you probably should prioritize the latter. Are all white people racist? No. Are those who are white in the US more statistically likely to enact ideas and policies based on their potential racism. Yes, by far.

Nephtis said:
I'm sorry, I disagree.
Click to expand...

I mean, there's nothing to disagree with look at the demographics of those in the the higher rungs of wealth, politics, business, so on and so forth. Currently actually economic and political power is invested in those who are classified as white. There's not much you argue against there, the numbers are quite clear.

Like above, the average person can be a problem, but the degree of that problem rises if prejudice is a factor in your teacher, boss, CEO, general manager, high ranking military officer, politician, etc. To carry a further metaphor, you're saying, "But that cut is a problem." I'm saying, "Yeah, I agree it is, but I'd like to tackle that broken leg first."
 
R

Reeks

Member
BKK said:
That's pretty simple, if somone's a bully, I'll tell them to stop, or they'll get a whack
Click to expand...

This isn't what I asked.


Edit: most people feel this way re:bullies. That's why "What would you do?" is such an old people show.
 
E

evangelion13

Neo Member
BKK said:
That's pretty simple, if somone's a bully, I'll tell them to stop, or they'll get a whack
Click to expand...

And what if you're the bully? What if you're the oppressor? Are you going to see the error of your ways, the error of your upbringing in a system which intentionally makes you blind to the suffering of others?
 
B

BKK

Member
Heroman said:
Let use a another example of inequality in America. All women do not agree on feminist ideas and there is alot of fighting it but all of is it meaning less if the dominant group Men are not part of conversation.
Click to expand...

This is rubbish .... only thing that will stop men beating women is their own communities. It's simple, a bloke who does that gets beat up by the local blokes.
 
B

BKK

Member
evangelion13 said:
And what if you're the bully? What if you're the oppressor? Are you going to see the error of your ways, the error of your upbringing in a system which intentionally makes you blind to the suffering of others?
Click to expand...

I mind my own business, if someone's a bully, and no one else steps in, then I will ... it's not hard to think about.
 
G

Gordon Shumway

Banned
Because of everything is racist, nothing is racist.

BKK said:
This is rubbish .... only thing that will stop men beating women is their own communities. It's simple, a bloke who does that gets beat up by the local blokes.
Click to expand...

lol..Where YOU live.

Also, where I used to live.
 
C

Cyframe

Member
FrenchMovieTheme said:
I'm white and have no problem talking about racism and, more specific to the US, systematic racism.

The problem you will find with many whites (and honestly, a shockingly high number of non whites) is that when you try to have a rational conversation about racism, it is almost an affront to the "hard work" they've put in to get where they are. Being the benefactor of white privilege doesn't mean you didn't work hard or have it easy but it does mean that the system is rigged in such a way that you had it easier.

It's nearly impossible to have a frank/open conversation about it even if you present your point an amicable as you can
Click to expand...

And they don't see it as a racial microaggression (more like macro) when they say: If only more Black people were like you, you're smart and articulate. I really don't want to talk to someone like that, let alone co-sign pedigree's within my race.

It's almost impossible for minorities, with all the extra related racial stress to be perfectly calm and collected to educate whites. And that shouldn't be the standard either, we should be able to get upset without things getting held against us.
 
E

Elandyll

Banned
I am white and have no problem talking about racism, in fact I think it's a very pressing issue, with the GOP telling us that we are now post-racism ever since Barrack Obama was elected in '08.

And of course, Trump ... But racism goes beyond that, and is something everyone should be cognizant as "innate bias" versus anything and anyone that you think is different from you.
Once you recognize that, as good and tolerant as you think you are, you -do- have innate biases (and it's not reserved to white people btw, but we have done some of the most vile stuff by building on it in the past), then you can start to have an honest discussion and watch where bias will influence your thoughts and discourse, instead of rationality.
 
O

Opto

Banned
BKK said:
Of course not, I'm saying that if I'm seeing someone abused because of their race or any other difference, I don't need someone to tell me if it's right or wrong, it's just common sense.
Click to expand...
that's not what they were talking about. How a member of the non-afflicted party sees an injustice is not going to be the same as someone of an afflicted party. That doesn't mean your reaction is worthless or unjust, it just means you lack that perspective and will never fully understand it.
 
B

BKK

Member
Opto said:
that's not what they were talking about. How a member of the non-afflicted party sees an injustice is not going to be the same as someone of an afflicted party. That doesn't mean your reaction is worthless or unjust, it just means you lack that perspective and will never fully understand it.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I'm going to speak my UK speak here again and say you're talking complete and utter crap!
 
Sunster

Sunster

Member
BKK said:
This is rubbish .... only thing that will stop men beating women is their own communities. It's simple, a bloke who does that gets beat up by the local blokes.
Click to expand...

Women face a full spectrum of inequality. Not just beatings.
 
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