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Game Graphics Technology | 64bit, procedural, high-fidelity debating

dr_rus

dr_rus

Member
icecold1983 said:
Damn. Ive been hoping to get some devs giving their real world results of how useful ID buffer really is compared to "software" solutions
Click to expand...
ID buffer is a software solution - it's just another bit being written to the memory when rendering to identify a primitive. You still need to do things with it to actually use it anywhere.

RoboPlato said:
This is really, really clever

I'm shocked Horizon is using FXAA as well. Never seen such good results from it before. I guess that tangram pattern works well with it.
Click to expand...
They are using FXAA + TAA (+ soft resolve + sharpening on Pro). It's not just FXAA.
 
A

Auto-Reply

Member
zooL said:
hmm didn‘t half-life 2 already do the screen stuff? this somehow does not seem very impressive to me... could be just me, though.
Click to expand...

Far from an expert on this but I guess they don't need to render scenes into the world to render something to a texture. Half Life 2 did have to render what was seen on screens into it's world first.
Rendering something to a texture itself is not new, the way it is done makes the difference (I think)
 
Z

zooL

Member
took a course in computer graphics and rendering to a frame buffer texture and then putting that texture on geometry is simple stuff... but I guess I just don‘t understand what the new idea here is haha! no offense...
 
K

KKRT00

Member
tuxfool said:
Yeah, none of this is new, though that implementation seems to be one of the better ones.
Click to expand...

Yep, though i dont know if holographic projection tech is not new.
Definitely it is the best implementation of second view port i've in any game and seems super customizable with ability to relight elements in real time.

----
icecold1983 said:
im missing something i think
Click to expand...

Really? Can you name any other game that does something like that in degree that they are showing it here?
The application of this tech, in its full scope, are immense for any game like that.
 
S

Snefer

Member
KKRT00 said:
Yep, though i dont know if holographic projection tech is not new.
Definitely it is the best implementation of second view port i've in any game and seems super customizable with ability to relight elements in real time.

----


Really? Can you name any other game that does something like that in degree that they are showing it here?
The application of this tech, in its full scope, are immense for any game like that.
Click to expand...

Render to texture like they show there have been easy to achieve for a long time in unreal 3 even. Now there might be lots of optimisations, and how it fits into the pipeline, culling etc. They talk about some level of detail optimisations based on size of the rendertexture, but other than that I cant tell what is very new about it tbh.
 
D

Dictator93

Member
Snefer said:
Render to texture like they show there have been easy to achieve for a long time in unreal 3 even. Now there might be lots of optimisations, and how it fits into the pipeline, culling etc. They talk about some level of detail optimisations based on size of the rendertexture, but other than that I cant tell what is very new about it tbh.
Click to expand...

It is definitely cool how it scales the RTTs quality based upon so many factors, but I guess the wholly unique thing is mainly how the holographic projections use it?

Most games for those kinda things tend to just use normal geometry with a holo-rim shader on it, don't they (or in DOOM 2016's case, with a dither + a holo rim shader)? Instead of it being a volume being projected into world space via RTT like it is here.
 
S

Snefer

Member
Dictator93 said:
It is definitely cool how it scales the RTTs quality based upon so many factors, but I guess the wholly unique thing is mainly how the holographic projections use it?

Most games for those kinda things tend to just use normal geometry with a holo-rim shader on it, don't they (or in DOOM 2016's case, with a dither + a holo rim shader)? Instead of it being a volume being projected into world space via RTT like it is here.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but what does that MEAN? It assume they just grab a secondary scene and then renders that in place basically, within a predefined volume. So the only thing that would be new in that case is how it fetches the geo, because what they are doing in their demos is easy peasy to do in other engines too. Fetching another scene isnt all that tricky.
 
Snake29

Snake29

RSI Employee of the Year
It's different because everything in the background is in realtime. So when they add this to the PU, and some player walks behind the characteryou will see it in realtime at your holodesk.

This will also mean that they can add body cams on some exploration suits, so that the crew at the bridge can have a realtime video feed to follow the expedition party. Same we've seen in the movie Prometheus.
 
S

Sylfurd

Member
Dictator93 said:
So the GG presentation on Anti-Aliasing, Checkerboarding, spherical area lights and height fog was posted.

The AA and Checkboarding sections are rather awesome. They make note of how using full-resolution hints (like triangle index buffer, depth, or A-tested stuff) was too expensive for them to get 2160c running at 30fps in Horzion (probably bandwidth bound), so they opted just doing everything at checkboarded resolution... albeit rotated and rearranged so FXAA and and TAA make it look the way it does in the end, whilst being efficient.

Quite fascinating.

It also explains the detail pattern you see in Horizon screen shots at 4K where it does not resolve anything smaller than 2X2 pair pixels. Kinda awesome.
checker41kxi.png
Click to expand...
What is the point of the tangram transform ?
 
S

Snefer

Member
Snake29 said:
It's different because everything in the background is in realtime. So when they add this to the PU, and some player walks behind the characteryou will see it in realtime at your holodesk.

This will also mean that they can add body cams on some exploration suits, so that the crew at the bridge have a realtime video feed to follow the expedition party. Same we've seen in the movie Prometheus.
Click to expand...

Yeah, thats what I mean. None of that is new at all from a technical perspective.
 
P

pottuvoi

Banned
Snefer said:
Yeah, thats what I mean. None of that is new at all from a technical perspective.
Click to expand...
Yes, we have seen similar tech many times before.
One of the more interesting things in their implementation is the automatic render to texture size evaluation and support for multiple cameras with displays in each others view.
 
staticneuron

staticneuron

Member
Sini said:
Can someone explain what is the advantage of not "cheating" at holograms is besides just being cool at tech wise? It gets you exact same result, no?
Click to expand...

Cheating works in fixed scenarios, a method like this allows for many gameplay elements to be translated through this tech. Not only NPC and scripted moments but also players can push out real time content. One example may just be the The Reliant Mako - News Van.
 
B

bonej

Member
Dictator93 said:
This is really fascinating.

Neural Network modelled ambient occlusion - it approaches ground truth in a pretty cool way.
http://theorangeduck.com/media/uploads/other_stuff/nnao.pdf
nnao1cs0g.png
Click to expand...
similar idea to deep shading. http://deep-shading-datasets.mpi-inf.mpg.de/

I have been asking myself when do we get a dedicated Asic for NN inferencing in mainstream consumer cards. NNs have lots of potential in video compression, video enhancement (such as super resolution or motion interpolation), post process effects etc.
 
B

bonej

Member
With so many CB solutions out there (ubi, guerilla, EA, even UE4 has one) I wonder if the "best" is gonna crystallize and if they receive names like other rendering techniques have. It would also be interesting if you were able to choose the upscaling/reconstruction algo like you can do with the several AA solutions for example.

But now we are still in the beginning and CB seems to be much more complex than AA solutions with more possible tweaks, so in this early time the fragmentation leads to faster inovation
 
N

nOoblet16

Member
So I've been thinking about something. Destiny 2 on console suffers from an issue of low FoV now I've always been curious about low FoV on consoles because why couldn't it have been "just a bit more"? But at the end of the day it comes down to perhaps having performance issues in a few parts and the developers would settle on an FoV that's the lowest common denominator for the entire game.

However Destiny is a special case because it has a third person mode where the FoV is extremely wide and akin to PC version FoV turned up to 100 that players can go to anytime they wish as many times as they want and it has the exact same performance as first person mode. (I can't remember if increasing FoV on PC also affects third person FoV, it probably doesn't).

So it stands to reason that the game is indeed rendering much more than we assume and the frustum for culling is much larger than what the first person FoV suggests. In which case...why do you guys think console versions dont offer an FoV slider?
 
I

illamap

Member
nOoblet16 said:
So I've been thinking about something. Destiny 2 on console suffers from an issue of low FoV now I've always been curious about low FoV on consoles because why couldn't it have been "just a bit more"? But at the end of the day it comes down to perhaps having performance issues in a few parts and the developers would settle on an FoV that's the lowest common denominator for the entire game.

However Destiny is a special case because it has a third person mode where the FoV is extremely wide and akin to PC version FoV turned up to 100 that players can go to anytime they wish as many times as they want and it has the exact same performance as first person mode. (I can't remember if increasing FoV on PC also affects third person FoV, it probably doesn't).

So it stands to reason that the game is indeed rendering much more than we assume and the frustum for culling is much larger than what the first person FoV suggests. In which case...why do you guys think console versions dont offer an FoV slider?
Click to expand...

Maybe it is just design decision where they assume most players play on average size tv fairly far away, and not account those with big tvs or those playing on monitor. Performance wise Destiny 2 seems to have plenty of headroom at least on ps4.

I can't write with full confidence how higher fov affects framerate, but shouldn't it push lods back thus helping with performance and shouldn't developers account for worst-case scenario anyways when viewing game area from far away. Maybe higher fov would have induced objects popping up on farthest lods. Anyways just my graphics noob thoughts.
 
D

Dictator93

Member
Hi Everyone,
I really have enjoyed setting up this thread, contributing, learning, and reading everyone else's contributions here. GAF is just full of people who care and know a heck of a lot more than I do. I am grateful. Like many of the niche communities on GAF, we were interested in something specific, hungry for knowledge about it, and willing to engage in friendly and caring discussion concerning it. Always helping each other out, and hopefully linking and creating content that made others more knowledgable or interested at the same time.

That time has come to an end for me here on NeoGaf and I will be going elsewhere.

I hope that anyone who stumbles across this thread can realise what a great thing we had going here, and then they will realise that the same thing will be found elsewhere.

So forgive me my ranting, my specificity, and most especially, my biases and terrible typing.

You can find me on Twitter until the next portal opens up. We will rise again to nerd out about the resolution of the third shadow cascade in your favourite game.
Best,
Dictator
 
D

Domaje

Member
Dictator93 said:
Hi Everyone,
I really have enjoyed setting up this thread, contributing, learning, and reading everyone else's contributions here. GAF is just full of people who care and know a heck of a lot more than I do. I am grateful. Like many of the niche communities on GAF, we were interested in something specific, hungry for knowledge about it, and willing to engage in friendly and caring discussion concerning it. Always helping each other out, and hopefully linking and creating content that made others more knowledgable or interested at the same time.

That time has come to an end for me here on NeoGaf and I will be going elsewhere.

I hope that anyone who stumbles across this thread can realise what a great thing we had going here, and then they will realise that the same thing will be found elsewhere.

So forgive me my ranting, my specificity, and most especially, my biases and terrible typing.

You can find me on Twitter until the next portal opens up. We will rise again to nerd out about the resolution of the third shadow cascade in your favourite game.
Best,
Dictator
Click to expand...
It's spelled ResetERA, not RsetERA.
 
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