Just it being one of the most well known misunderstandings. I totally agree that the art makes the card, would be cool to see what the artist would do if he had a better idea of the designers intention.
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Magic: the Gathering |OT13| Ixalan - Port to Sideboard
- Thread starter SigmasonicX
- Start date
SigmasonicX
Member
It would be great if Dominaria had a new lemure, and it was still a lemur.
A Serious Man
Member
Anyone who makes their living with Magic video content should be ecstatic right now. I can understand why the mtggoldfish guys are trying to downplay Arena since so much of their site is tied to MTGO but they could absolutely adjust and be fine.
charlequin
Banned
IMA let you finish but MM3 was the best Masters set of all time.
Having 70 million people paying $6 a year on average is better than 300,000 people paying $1000 a year on average (and MTGO is not anywhere remotely close to that -- Magic's revenue as a whole is only about $300m and MTGO is a small fraction of that.)
None of those games is Magic, tho.
Magic Duels -- a mediocre offering with no streaming community that's already been EOLed -- has 2.7m accounts on Steam alone with 70,000 people still playing weekly. Arena is far more appealing than that and is gonna have a full-court-press on Twitch to get people interested. I'd be shocked if they get less than 10m signups in the first year, and it's trivial at that scale to make more money than MTGO even with small spenders.
If you want another indicator of how much upside there is in this market, Konami's latest Yu-Gi-Oh app has 50m downloads in a year: https://www.konami.com/games/corporate/en/news/release/20170823/?cm_sp=01-_-release-_-20170823-e
Unrecoverable equity does that to people.
They specifically changed the whole development process -- we don't have the full details but every step of their old pipeline got shook up. It's clear that one of the results of the way they've refocused development vs. play design is that they're trying to dial down total mechanical complexity a lot but give more slack on individual card complexity in certain ways.
Having 70 million people paying $6 a year on average is better than 300,000 people paying $1000 a year on average (and MTGO is not anywhere remotely close to that -- Magic's revenue as a whole is only about $300m and MTGO is a small fraction of that.)
None of those games is Magic, tho.
Magic Duels -- a mediocre offering with no streaming community that's already been EOLed -- has 2.7m accounts on Steam alone with 70,000 people still playing weekly. Arena is far more appealing than that and is gonna have a full-court-press on Twitch to get people interested. I'd be shocked if they get less than 10m signups in the first year, and it's trivial at that scale to make more money than MTGO even with small spenders.
If you want another indicator of how much upside there is in this market, Konami's latest Yu-Gi-Oh app has 50m downloads in a year: https://www.konami.com/games/corporate/en/news/release/20170823/?cm_sp=01-_-release-_-20170823-e
Unrecoverable equity does that to people.
They specifically changed the whole development process -- we don't have the full details but every step of their old pipeline got shook up. It's clear that one of the results of the way they've refocused development vs. play design is that they're trying to dial down total mechanical complexity a lot but give more slack on individual card complexity in certain ways.
Thanks for providing numbers. No idea where the basis came from that Magic has a lower ceiling than a game based on World of Warcraft due to complexity.
As soon as MTG streamers make the switch to Arena for draft videos, it's going to take off. Kibler's always said that MTGO is the reason he moved to Hearthstone. It'd be huge for MTG/Arena if WotC managed to get him streaming standard/draft again on his channel. Same with Amaz, who's obviously interested in the game/community.
SigmasonicX
Member
I wonder if this will be used for all effects that can burn players, since there's a ton of history preventing them from spelling it out of physical cards, but nothing stops them on digital.Saw this on twitter. Wording change on the Arena card vs Printed card.
charlequin
Banned
Ten bucks says this rules change/errata is coming to the paper game within the next year. EDIT: I am a super-genius:
Yeah people really underestimate how much attention (and as a result, cash) the big streamers can bring in.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I think she's just too slow. Nothing is gonna ever touch Elspeth in the 6 drop range.
Honestly, Kibler's defection to Hearthstone and his fairly openness in talking about it probably helped in the decision to make Arena.
Ten bucks says this rules change/errata is coming to the paper game within the next year. EDIT: I am a super-genius:
This is good. It was always super confusing to new players.
Damn, that is going to need a buttload of errata.
Ten bucks says this rules change/errata is coming to the paper game within the next year. EDIT: I am a super-genius:
That would be good for the game IMO.
Simply Sarah
Member
Ten bucks says this rules change/errata is coming to the paper game within the next year. EDIT: I am a super-genius:
But will they change things that prevent damage to you? I know it's a bit of a silly thing to worry about but this would be a functional change.
So like Lightning Bolt will still be able to hurt players and PWs but now it will just spell that out on the card? As long as the functionality of old cards doesn't change that's good but UGH so much errata. Will be a pain for Cubes to have so many different wordings and what not :/
That errata will make sense with most normal burn spells, you just add "or Planeswalker", but gets a lot more complicated with other spells if they want to keep the functionality the same.
Can Blightning have two targets now? Or does it say "that player or the controller of that planeswalker, discards two cards". Can you still hit Planeswalkers with stuff that deals damage to an opponent with a trigger, like Eidolon of the Great Revel or Guttersnipe?
Can Blightning have two targets now? Or does it say "that player or the controller of that planeswalker, discards two cards". Can you still hit Planeswalkers with stuff that deals damage to an opponent with a trigger, like Eidolon of the Great Revel or Guttersnipe?
charlequin
Banned
A quick scan suggests there's over 500 different cards that would need to be reworded, lol.
It'll be a big functional change no matter what as you'll have to declare the target at cast time.
ThLunarian
Member
Yuck, those are good points. This errata could get really hairy
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
You also have to somehow address how Healing Salve actually interacts with Lightning Bolt if you do that.
phazedplasma
Member
Arena is what ive been waiting for. This is going to take off.
It's embarrassing when you look at the numbers for the top MTG streamers compared to the HS streamers
MTG
Kenji 57k followers / 7.6mil views
LSV: 40.8k followers / 1.2 mil views
Gaby: 37k followers / 900k views
MTG Goldfish: 29k followers / 450k views
Hearthstone
Amaz: 857k followers / 79.8 mil views
Thijs: 374k followers / 27 mil views
Kibler: 325k followers / 16.7mil views
Sjow: 186k followers / 20 mil views
Will Arena accomplish those types of numbers? Who knows. It'll certainly improve tremendously upon the current streaming situation. Especially if you can get someone like Amaz and Kibler to actively stream Arena.
Absolutely.
charlequin
Banned
Aaron Forsythe bringing the realness as usual:
They'll just change it to work the same way regular damage does now and accept that it has corner case changes to a massive number of cards.
Well I mean Amaz and Kibler will be streaming it so in a certain sense it's guaranteed to.
Forsythe said:
They'll just change it to work the same way regular damage does now and accept that it has corner case changes to a massive number of cards.
Well I mean Amaz and Kibler will be streaming it so in a certain sense it's guaranteed to.
Good call.
Have them stream the beta, and then give out a promo code that gets you instant access + an extra premade deck or boosters.
lol a chupacabra!
Should've been Creature -- Chupacabra
Wulfric
Member
Making a good client is just one piece of a puzzle. Even the simplest game of Magic is more complex than most Hearthstone matches. I love playing Magic and can't see myself sitting down for a game of Arena during lunch. Even if they included a code for free boosters inside each booster box, MTG sorely lacks that "pick up and play" factor. WotC will need to woo some HS streamers with sponsorships if they want this thing to take off.
Simply Sarah
Member
To me it seems like this is going to end up making things way more confusing instead of less confusing and/or will cause significant functional changes.
ThLunarian
Member
Blightning currently being able to kill Planeswalkers, but potentially not in the future unless there is a very specific wording change, isn't exactly a corner case. Same goes for stuff like Eidolon and Guttersnipe. Part of the reason cards like that are good is specifically because they can kill Planeswalkers.
Same also goes for stuff like Earthquake and Hurricane - granted, they weren't designed originally to be able to kill Planeswalkers, but now it's a major change in functionality
Nah, the redirect rules are not good. It's a functional change to a bunch of edge-case cards, but stuff like Bolt and Blightning won't be affected.
Blightning is "Target Player". It would errata to "Target Player or Planeswalker."
The place where this is a real change is not Blightning, it's effects like Earthquake.
divisionbyzorro
Member
The planeswalker damage redirection rule should have been removed years ago. Glad they're finally biting the bullet and doing it now.
You could always just errata them so they work functionally the same way.
You could always just errata them so they work functionally the same way.
It cant be more confusing then currently trying to explain to a new player about damage redirection.
I have often heard Planeswalkers described to new players as a second player who is assisting you so it seems natural to say if an effect can target a player that is either you or your Planeswalker.
ThLunarian
Member
You'd need more than that, because under this wording, the player would no longer discard two cards if you targeted the Planeswalker
Well yeah, but then that means the errata is really hairy, and more complex than just adding "...or planeswalker" to a bunch of cards
*That Player (or Planeswalker's controller) discards two cards
Infinite Stars
Member
Horizon Canopy at Rare should deflate the price that it's no longer borderline insane.
Still holding out for Vial, Hierarch, and other goodies.
Edit: wrt to Planes Walker rule, I think it's much more flavorful to say "Target Planeswalker". The idea is that you are a Planeswalker, as is your opponent.
Still holding out for Vial, Hierarch, and other goodies.
Edit: wrt to Planes Walker rule, I think it's much more flavorful to say "Target Planeswalker". The idea is that you are a Planeswalker, as is your opponent.
Simply Sarah
Member
I'm not saying the redirection rule is good, it's not, but it at least slotted in easily to existing mechanics (and mechanics printed since then). It's just that either you're going to make it be effectively the redirection rule in drag or you're going to change a lot about how it works for cards that currently damage all players/opponents and the like.
ThLunarian
Member
Okay, but my point is that this is either a major undertaking in terms of implementing errata, which will require significant card-specific wording updates, OR it's a major functionality change for a whole host of cards. This is not going to be a simple fix
After Horizon Canopy, Noble Hierarch is tops on my wishlist.
(Can you tell I have a Bant deck that's running sub-optimal cards?)
I guess you'd do it with two "rules" that would handle most stuff:
1) If a spell or ability targets a player and its only effect is damage, it can now also target a Planeswalker.
2) If a spell or ability damages a player without targeting, or targets and deals damage in addition to other effects, it now reads "deals _ damage to target player/each player/that player/etc or a Planeswalker that player controls."
1) If a spell or ability targets a player and its only effect is damage, it can now also target a Planeswalker.
2) If a spell or ability damages a player without targeting, or targets and deals damage in addition to other effects, it now reads "deals _ damage to target player/each player/that player/etc or a Planeswalker that player controls."
It is a major undertaking of errata, but it's also a major simplification of rules, both IRL and on MTGO/Arena. There's big upside to doing this.
SigmasonicX
Member
Chupacabra! All those cryptid-obsessed anime characters rejoice!
From Burning Sun's Avatar's wording, I guess they're ignoring the corner case of a player having hexproof also protecting their planeswalkers from targeted player damage.
From Burning Sun's Avatar's wording, I guess they're ignoring the corner case of a player having hexproof also protecting their planeswalkers from targeted player damage.