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In your mind, what is "radical Islam" in the context of terrorism? Give us your views

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Joel Was Right

Joel Was Right

If you smell burning, it's probably the generators acting up. Report it anyway.
I'm not referring to religious fundamentalism in general, in the form of e.g. attitudes to homosexuals and women in Muslim countries, but rather its form in terrorism. What is the root cause? What is meant by "radical" Islam? Let me put it in another way: what is Al-Qaeda principally

Muslim-GAF, I ask you to avoid posting here and challenging the posts, at least initially; let's first gauge opinion of people's ideas on the question.
 
No different than radical environmentalism, radical vengeance killings, radical lashing out by isolated individuals. Religion has nothing to do with it, it's just another medium to get the fallout for someone where something goes loose in their head to decide to do this to people with no remorse.
 
TheNatural said:
No different than radical environmentalism, radical vengeance killings, radical lashing out by isolated individuals. Religion has nothing to do with it, it's just another medium to get the fallout for someone where something goes loose in their head to decide to do this to people with no remorse.
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.
 
Fusebox said:
Tbh I don't understand the question.
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If you so agree, in what way(s) does Islam as an article of faith promote/encourage violence in the form of terrorism? Who is the 'War on Terror' against specifically, and what are their motivations
 
TheNatural said:
No different than radical environmentalism, radical vengeance killings, radical lashing out by isolated individuals. Religion has nothing to do with it, it's just another medium to get the fallout for someone where something goes loose in their head to decide to do this to people with no remorse.
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I think pretty much this.
 
Like any other religious terrorism. There's really no difference; a church bombing is no different than a marathon bombing. Both are in vein of religion and should not be tolerated, unfortunately many US journalists seem to focus only on Islamic terrorists and not on the many domestic, right and left wing terrorists that have been a part of the country for at least a hundred years.
 
Any time someone uses Islamic beliefs as a justification for murder. If we want to get technical, for murder outside of the context of a heavily Islamic society to distinguish from some of the forms of punishment within such a society.

Mind you, I'm just extrapolating from what I'd call "radical X" for almost anything.
 
TheNatural said:
No different than radical environmentalism, radical vengeance killings, radical lashing out by isolated individuals. Religion has nothing to do with it, it's just another medium to get the fallout for someone where something goes loose in their head to decide to do this to people with no remorse.
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I disagree with this. It may be true sometimes but people can be persuaded to act out or do something by interpretation of that text. You have societies that will lynch you if they believe that you blasphemed their God.
 
It's people looking for something to blame for the problems they deal with. Having something which condemns things such as you've mentioned helps them to justify their own cruel actions which is essentially committing violence in claim of their religious belief.
 
Probably a question for Muslim question thread, but is the whole "72 virgins in Heaven" thing really an explicit part of the religion, or is that something that has been blown out of proportion by Western media/cable news? If there is actual positive reinforcement for violent acts built in to the religion it would be easy to see how radical psychopaths could focus in on that.
 
Kuroyume said:
I disagree with this. It may be true sometimes but people can be persuaded to act out or do something by interpretation of that text. You have societies that will lynch you if they believe that you blasphemed their God.
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No different than school shooters being influenced by playing DOOM or whatever other medium. Some night killer got tied to AC/DC in the 80's. People centuries ago committed suicide over literature.

All throughout history a very small amount of people have caused loss of life that they attributed to some medium. If it's not one thing, then it's something else.
 
TheNatural said:
No different than radical environmentalism, radical vengeance killings, radical lashing out by isolated individuals. Religion has nothing to do with it, it's just another medium to get the fallout for someone where something goes loose in their head to decide to do this to people with no remorse.
Click to expand...

Religious text and doctrine obviously do make a difference. We can argue how much is political and how much is religious, but to dismiss religion as a motivating factor is pretty naive.
 
TheNatural said:
No different than radical environmentalism, radical vengeance killings, radical lashing out by isolated individuals. Religion has nothing to do with it, it's just another medium to get the fallout for someone where something goes loose in their head to decide to do this to people with no remorse.
Click to expand...

.
 
TheNatural said:
No different than radical environmentalism, radical vengeance killings, radical lashing out by isolated individuals. Religion has nothing to do with it, it's just another medium to get the fallout for someone where something goes loose in their head to decide to do this to people with no remorse.
Click to expand...

I disagree. I think US foreign policy in the Middle East over the last 50 years is the most significant contributor. You say it's isolated individuals, but a shitload of folks in the Middle East hate the US and rightfully so. Look at this poll, which was carried out across 12 Arab countries (Arab != Islam, I know) where by a ratio of 15:1 respondents considered the US and Israel a greater threat than Iran.

Although I do agree that it isn't anything inherent in Islam, and I'm sure there are plenty of incidents (including probably this most recent one) where the perpetrators are just people with a screw loose.
 
remist said:
Religious text and doctrine obviously do make a difference. We can argue how much is political and how much is religious, but to dismiss religion as a motivating factor is pretty naive.
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It's still used as a scapegoat.
 
Jason Raize '75 - '04 said:
If you so agree, in what way(s) does Islam as an article of faith promote/encourage violence in the form of terrorism? Who is the 'War on Terror' against specifically, and what are their motivations
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Islam doesn't promote violence against anyone. If anyone does it is the corrupt clerics who want to stay in power politically by building an aggressive coalition of followers who would be directed to use violence to move their agenda forward. I am pretty sure and confident that even most people in Saudi Arabia condemn terrorism even the Wahabi's. It is these clerics who maintain power through local control and broad international controlling of people's ideas and beliefs. if you have a person who follows Islam and they see you as a cleric but as a cleric you are corrupt and violent and misinterpret Islam, some people won't care, they will accept you as if you are right when in case you are not.

This is why the only way to reduce International Terrorism is to remove the 'THINKING' behind the clerics and remove them from 'POWER' which is given to them. This is why Muslims who are vulnerable need to teach themselves their faith alongside what a higher priest tells you. A faith which you only follow because the cleric tells you is blind faith and it can also result in blindly following radicalism. Their authority is only to preach, when they influence politicians and people to do stuff which harms other people even if its non-Muslims, they are not clerics anymore of Islam, they are Enablers of Satan. That is all
 
jred2k said:
Probably a question for Muslim question thread, but is the whole "72 virgins in Heaven" thing really an explicit part of the religion, or is that something that has been blown out of proportion by Western media/cable news? If there is actual positive reinforcement for violent acts built in to the religion it would be easy to see how radical psychopaths could focus in on that.
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Yeah, I want to know this too.

They keep promoting virgins in Heaven. So these people are willing to die because, shit, they'll get virgins.
 
Polari said:
I disagree. I think US foreign policy in the Middle East over the last 50 years is the most significant contributor. You say it's isolated individuals, but a shitload of folks in the Middle East hate the US and rightfully so. Look at this poll, which was carried out across 12 Arab countries (Arab != Islam, I know) where by a ratio of 15:1 respondents considered the US and Israel a greater threat than Iran.

Although I do agree that it isn't anything inherent in Islam, and I'm sure there are plenty of incidents (including probably this most recent one) where the perpetrators are just people with a screw loose.
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I'm speaking from completely domestic attacks standpoint. These weren't lifelong Middle Easterners living a life of poverty to be brainwashed for some cause, they lived in the US most of their lives and were fairly normal people.
 
Mikey Jr. said:
Yeah, I want to know this too.

They keep promoting virgins in Heaven. So these people are willing to die because, shit, they'll get virgins.
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72 Virgins is a myth promoted by Hardline Clerics as Proof of their Sacrificial blessings and Accepted by non-Muslims as proof against Islam. Plain and Simple
 
jred2k said:
Probably a question for Muslim question thread, but is the whole "72 virgins in Heaven" thing really an explicit part of the religion, or is that something that has been blown out of proportion by Western media/cable news? If there is actual positive reinforcement for violent acts built in to the religion it would be easy to see how radical psychopaths could focus in on that.
Click to expand...

from what I understand, anybody who goes to heaven gets the so called virgins. (not really an explicit part, just one of the many many things heaven is described to be like)
I would like to note that I don't believe they are ever referred to as "virgins" in the Quran or the Hadeeth. They are mostly referred to as "hoor al-ayn".
They have however been described as virgin but that is more in reference to their purity than it is their sexuality.

the 72 virgins was never mentioned in the Quran, I've been told (by western sources) it was mentioned in a Hadeeth, but I've never come across it personally.
 
using violence and religion to accomplish political aims and to establish social power and support for their beliefs in a particular region. The use of violence and ideology being key.
 
A reaction to western imperialism that turned to conservative fundamentalism instead of a progressive sort of opposition such as socialism (notice that political Islamism didn't start gaining traction in the Muslim world until the 70s and didn't explode until anti-capitalism had collapsed).
 
The whole radical part is like the different types of Christianity interpreting the Bible in different ways (like i'd call westboro an extreme version of being baptist not really violent but extreme in approach).

Even the non extremists might believe the same things, but might see certain things as metaphors, and thats where terrorists have taken things completely literal, out of context, or in a manner to facilitate their cause.
 
Judaism had its radical parts and now its gone among clerics at least, can't say about politicians

Christianity had its radicals with witch hunts and the likes and that goes away

Islam has its radicals which will go away


If you notice Islam is the Youngest of the 3 religions, You need to give it time for the reformation to occur from within. You can never force change like this, people never change their ideals with force, they only change with examples of proper beliefs instead of radicalized beliefs
 
Jason Raize '75 - '04 said:
If you so agree, in what way(s) does Islam as an article of faith promote/encourage violence in the form of terrorism? Who is the 'War on Terror' against specifically, and what are their motivations
Click to expand...

I does not. It's only used by extremists as a way to justify their crimes.

Terrorism and extremism are fueled by pauverty, hardship, opression and money. It just happens that those things are omnipresent in islamic countries right now.
 
Polari said:
I disagree. I think US foreign policy in the Middle East over the last 50 years is the most significant contributor. You say it's isolated individuals, but a shitload of folks in the Middle East hate the US and rightfully so. Look at this poll, which was carried out across 12 Arab countries (Arab != Islam, I know) where by a ratio of 15:1 respondents considered the US and Israel a greater threat than Iran.

Although I do agree that it isn't anything inherent in Islam, and I'm sure there are plenty of incidents (including probably this most recent one) where the perpetrators are just people with a screw loose.
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Bingo. It is really unfortunate that these sick people are hiding behind religion to justify their actions. But I do have to point out that most of these mislead people don't just target westerners. Just look at the bombings in Iraq!!!
 
sphagnum said:
A reaction to western imperialism that turned to conservative fundamentalism instead of a progressive sort of opposition such as socialism (notice that political Islamism didn't start gaining traction in the Muslim world until the 70s and didn't explode until anti-capitalism had collapsed).
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Reminds me of that obnoxious memetic photo that gets posted on the internet of Afghanistan in the 60s versus the 2000s, which conspicuously skips over Western arming and supporting of the people that created / paved the way for the material conditions of the present.
 
Polari said:
I disagree. I think US foreign policy in the Middle East over the last 50 years is the most significant contributor. You say it's isolated individuals, but a shitload of folks in the Middle East hate the US and rightfully so. Look at this poll, which was carried out across 12 Arab countries (Arab != Islam, I know) where by a ratio of 15:1 respondents considered the US and Israel a greater threat than Iran.

Although I do agree that it isn't anything inherent in Islam, and I'm sure there are plenty of incidents (including probably this most recent one) where the perpetrators are just people with a screw loose.
Click to expand...


I would have to agree with this assessment too. Islam would always have people with issues, but when you tip your feet in the water, it gets wet and that is exactly what happened. As Western influence expanded, the radicals who minded their own businesses went after the West as an excuse. If Islam always had issues with the West then ' Islamic Terrorism' would have occured long before the 50s.
 
Polari said:
I disagree. I think US foreign policy in the Middle East over the last 50 years is the most significant contributor. You say it's isolated individuals, but a shitload of folks in the Middle East hate the US and rightfully so. Look at this poll, which was carried out across 12 Arab countries (Arab != Islam, I know) where by a ratio of 15:1 respondents considered the US and Israel a greater threat than Iran.
Click to expand...

Maninthemirror said:
I would have to agree with this assessment too. Islam would always have people with issues, but when you tip your feet in the water, it gets wet and that is exactly what happened. As Western influence expanded, the radicals who minded their own businesses went after the West as an excuse. If Islam always had issues with the West then ' Islamic Terrorism' would have occured long before the 50s.
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You'd have a point if radical Islam only resulted in violence against the US.

But in fact, radical Islam results in violence against other Muslims from different sects and plenty of violence against individuals who are deemed to have committed acts against a radicalized view of Islam.

There are bombings in Iraq and Afghanistan multiple times a week where the primary victims are other Muslims.
 
CharlieDigital said:
You'd have a point if radical Islam only resulted in violence against the US.

But in fact, radical Islam results in violence against other Muslims from different sects and plenty of violence against individuals who are deemed to have committed acts against a radicalized view of Islam.
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Radical Islam within Islam only got stronger after the 40s and 50s because the Radicals gained 'political' and 'social' power by going after the western 'influence' as they saw it. People were hardliners but not to the extent they are now since the 40s and Jamaat e Islami movement

2 of the biggest secular to Hardline interventions came as a direct / indirect result of western Influence

Iranian Revolution resulting from hardliners making an excuse of western policies ruining their lives which results in the hardline Iran which we see today

Russian Invasion of Afghanistan resulted in people who were somewhat hardlined within its own borders attracted radicals from ALL over the world for 'armed Jihad'. US armed them but US thought they would disband, they didnt and only became more radicalized
 
Maninthemirror said:
Judaism had its radical parts and now its gone among clerics at least, can't say about politicians

Christianity had its radicals with witch hunts and the likes and that goes away

Islam has its radicals which will go away
Click to expand...

There are still plenty of Christian radicals, and I would argue a certain number of Jewish radicals as well, although obviously that's a bit more complicated.
 
Jason Raize '75 - '04 said:
If you so agree, in what way(s) does Islam as an article of faith promote/encourage violence in the form of terrorism? Who is the 'War on Terror' against specifically, and what are their motivations
Click to expand...

Islam does promote killing, I'd say directly, but others might argue indirectly. The passages that speak of standing up in defense of Islam and for it's followers is very open to interpretation, if not directly calling for believers to fight or whatever it means to stand up for their faith.

So thousands of years later, if you feel like your religion is getting disrespected, if you feel like the world has gotten crazy, if you feel like you got bilked out of a good deal by asshole neighbors, you get to haul off and cut people's necks, or build bombs and kill innocents.

Yes that's a simplification, but is it inaccurate? The very idea of killing innocents to make statements in service of God...it's an implosion of everything God is supposed to stand for, replaced by the beliefs of man. Are they really afraid for Islam? Or is this just old fashioned human conflict?
 
IMO this is a dangerous sentiment no matter how you interpret the cause of Allah.

Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah , so they kill and are killed. [It is] a true promise [binding] upon Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. And who is truer to his covenant than Allah ? So rejoice in your transaction which you have contracted. And it is that which is the great attainment.
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akira28 said:
Islam does promote killing, I'd say directly, but others might argue indirectly. The passages that speak of standing up in defense of Islam and for it's followers is very open to interpretation, if not directly calling for believers to fight or whatever it means to stand up for their faith.

So thousands of years later, if you feel like your religion is getting disrespected, if you feel like the world has gotten crazy, if you feel like you got bilked out of a good deal by asshole neighbors, you get to haul off and cut people's necks, or build bombs and kill innocents.

Yes that's a simplification, but is it inaccurate? The very idea of killing innocents to make statements in service of God...it's an implosion of everything God is supposed to stand for, replaced by the beliefs of man.
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The only time Islam promotes killing was during the time of Muhammad when 'during that time' there was a treaty with the beduins at a time Muslims were in the couple of thousands and certainly ripe for 'extinction' by one huge army or attack. The beduins and a few Jewish folks started attacking Muslims breaking the treaty which is God told Muhammad (saw) to 'defend' Islam and attack them back to the point that they 'retreat'. the other time is if society accepts the death penalty and allows it and you live in that society (even in the west) then you as a Muslim have to accept that penalty as a just punishment by society.
 
um...
so all the preachers talking about jihad with the religious authority of Islam and scripture behind them...all just a misunderstanding then, easy to sort out?
 
remist said:
IMO this is a dangerous sentiment no matter how you interpret the cause of Allah.
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Verse 9:111

Clearly stating that to submit to God means you have to sacrifice your property and belongings (Zakaat pillar of Islam) and your life (through giving complete submission to God). and if Islam is under threat that you defend Islam and even die for it or when your nation is under threat that you defend it and die for it just as it was told to the people of the book for Moses and Jesus and if Muslims do this, they will be rewarded in heaven.

Now the interesting part is the radical muslims and non-muslims who have issues with Islam take the defend Islam portion and think they are just allowed to kill period. That is not true and shows why the people who have issues with Islam and radical Muslims are practically illiterate and follow no logic.

Look at Islam today, it is spread to every corner of the earth. even if a country kills all Muslims, will it kill Islam? No. It is practically inconceivable that all non-Muslims at once start killing Muslims and destroying mosques all over the world to eradicate Islam. Any sane person would agree Islam is here to say, it is an idea and religion which won't go away. If we agree to that fact then the concept of 'Armed Jihad' to defend Islam whose purpose was ONLY TO DEFEND THE EXISTENCE of Islam from 'ARMED' forces has no place in current society anywhere in the world. Terrorism is infact not even associated with Jihad and is in fact anti-Jihad because it involves killing innocents.



akira28 said:
um...
so all the preachers talking about jihad with the religious authority of Islam and scripture behind them...all just a misunderstanding then, easy to sort out?
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those preachers who preach armed jihad as a way in society today are out of loop with reality
 
I don't really care about Radicals point of views or reasons. I know they don't represent the sentiments of the regular Muslim folks and had distorted way of views. I only want them to be brought to justice.
 
Winterfang said:
I don't really care about Radicals point of views or reasons. I know they don't represent the sentiments of the regular Muslim folks and had distorted way of views. I only want them to be brought to justice.
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This is a view that I agree with. You can't apprehend people for having 'radical views'. the Onus is on Muslims to change the views of these 'radicals' so that they don't influence other radicals, its a cyclical affect.
 
akira28 said:
um...
so all the preachers talking about jihad with the religious authority of Islam and scripture behind them...all just a misunderstanding then, easy to sort out?
Click to expand...

It's real, but it's disproportionately represented. Extremist propaganda is typically portrayed in the west as outrageous and often racist statements by religious figures, and while that certainly exists it wasn't what I usually came across in the middle east. It was much more common tactic to use graphic depictions of violence involving western military, with an overarching theme of victimization, to rile people up. Often there were religious undertones, it helps to create an us-vs-them mentality and people always respond differently to violence if it's from an outsider, but it's important to distinguish the tools they use from the central goals, which are political in nature.
 
Hardcore Islam offers a more satisfying justice system. Its one of the reasons the Taliban is so entrenched and difficult to remove - they can roll into a village, satisfy peoples grievances quickly and leave whereas the local police force is non-existent or mostly ineffective.

Is it true that the 'behead non muslims' crowd are actually missing a step? Something along the lines of under old-school islamic law non-muslims are able to pay a tax to avoid the beheading.
 
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