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Crispin Boyer defines what a non-game is
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Foxtastical
Member
What genre is Endless Blue anyways?Oblivion said:
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
Oblivion said:
why is that so unbelievable that standards for an entire genre be changed?
If a game like Final Fantasy 1 or 2 were released today, it would bomb like no other. There are standards for an entire genre, and they barely suffice anything.
DevelopmentArrested
Banned
Said it before but I'll say it again - we had to listen to Shane go on and on about Fl0w for fucking hours on 1UP Yours but nope.. Endless Ocean isn't worthy of a review.
davepoobond said:
You haven't played it, nor taken the time to read about it. So don't try going into a discussion about it.
The game is all about exploration, it has adventure elements, it has puzzles, it has a lot of stuff to collect. You can play it together with friends, or you can just explore and map new areas, find new species, or look for treasure.
To be frank, it has more gameplay than most action games where the only way to interact with objects is to point your gun.
I AM JOHN!
Banned
What are you talking about? The way we perceive games is constantly changing, be it by micro advances (story in something like Bioshock) or through evolutions of other genres (the rise of these casual or non-games). Obviously non-games existed before the Wii, but there wasn't this genre that we now call "non-games" that we're now lumping many of these casual "experiences" into.avatar299 said:
I think the question should be: "Why are you so predisposed to use the past to dictate the future?" In your argument, you're essentially saying that we should still be calling FPS games "Doom Clones."
flOw wasn't reviewed by EGM, and Forever Blue was reviewed by 1UP.DevelopmentArrested said:
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
avatar299 said:
nah, nothing to do with being a real gamer or not, just being an idiot
Oblivion said:
no, not FF1 and 2 themselves, but if a new game like that was made and released.
FF1 and 2 themselves have nostalgia and the fact that its a series of games going for it as far as why they still sell.
but you're saying STANDARDS. there are also sub-standard RPGs, i hope you realize.
avatar299 said:
I think it depends on what you consider to be something that makes a genre switch. Like I said I haven't played EO so I don't have an opinion on that game itself.
My original point wasn't really to argue about whether it was a game or not just to simply hope that the topic being discussed dealt with what is or isn't a game rather than crapping on something that really wasn't part of the discussion, or isn't going to go anywhere.
Tabris said:
Oh, please. Someone whose favorite game involves 30 hours of watching anime characters engage in heavy-handed self-psychoanalysis, a tedium enterprise involving no greater depth of gaming elements than hitting a button to occasionally advance the plodding text, has no business commenting on what is and is not a game.
Foxtastical
Member
I like this.I AM JOHN! said:
We should be calling Doom Clones FPS. No genre has changed so radically that it's a brand new genre. Non-game isn't even a genre, it's a derogatory term used by elitists. Nintendog is a simulation game, Brain Age is edutainment software, wii sports is a sports game.I AM JOHN! said:
But hey, if we are perceiving new genres every 5 years than where the fuck is Super Mario Bros. Final Fantasy 1, Ultima,Zalda. Metroid, Adventure, etc etc
This has never been the case, and thank god for that.
davepoobond said:
Right, but that's not what I was implying. I'm not saying I have a problem with standards of game quality changing over time. I was referring to what can or can't be considered a part of that genre anymore changing over time.
Foxtastical
Member
Games can break out of current established genres. New genres can be created. Music and movies have been doing it for years.
PepsimanVsJoe
Member
Just wanted to note something:
I was playing Endless Ocean and some guy wanted me to take him on a tour and find this particular fish(I forget what it was called).
Anyway I wasn't having much luck and the guy was whining about how "this tour is boring" and "I wanna see the ???? wahhhh". A few minutes later however and I get a message from my partner on the boat saying the tourist is completely satisfied and I can come back up anytime I want.
Now even though I pretty much failed in my objective to find this particular fish I still got a "hey you're great!" and a reward.
Also I'm not sure how the Pokemon Snap comparisons are valid. In PS in order to progress didn't you have to score enough points photographing pokemon in a variety of situations? That's more of a game than Endless Ocean...which seems content telling you don't suck no matter what happens.
Which is fine by me, because I bought Endless Ocean to relax.
I was playing Endless Ocean and some guy wanted me to take him on a tour and find this particular fish(I forget what it was called).
Anyway I wasn't having much luck and the guy was whining about how "this tour is boring" and "I wanna see the ???? wahhhh". A few minutes later however and I get a message from my partner on the boat saying the tourist is completely satisfied and I can come back up anytime I want.
Now even though I pretty much failed in my objective to find this particular fish I still got a "hey you're great!" and a reward.
Also I'm not sure how the Pokemon Snap comparisons are valid. In PS in order to progress didn't you have to score enough points photographing pokemon in a variety of situations? That's more of a game than Endless Ocean...which seems content telling you don't suck no matter what happens.
Which is fine by me, because I bought Endless Ocean to relax.
ethelred said:
My favorite game is Suikoden II. That's my second and fourth favorite game (xenogears and xenosaga episode III). The games I am currently enjoying are: Rockband, Mass Effect, and Super Mario Galaxy, all which enhance the gaming depth in their respective genres.
Thanks for playing though (oh wait, you're not actually playing with non-games
)avatar299 said:
I'd just like to say personally that if something is lumped in as a non-game I don't think any less of it.
Anyway so your point is you are looking at the very very core of each genre, and that's a perfectly acceptable argument, it's just not one everyone is going to agree with...Also I guess you have beef with the non-game term itself, so I'm sure that has something to do with your belief in this argument.
Also I guess this type of game could be a so called "new genre" that is now more defined? Is EO an open world game in your mind?
I AM JOHN!
Banned
I consider it a genre. When I play Sudoku Gridmaster, I sure as fuck don't think to myself: "I'm having a great time playing this puzzle game.avatar299 said:
But yeah, I agree that the term "nongame" is usually used to degrade a game, which is why I called Forever Blue an "experience" instead.
EDIT: why are we even discussing this shitty fucking game anyway? Sure, this is an important discussion to have, but over Endless fucking Ocean?!
The Faceless Master
Member
davepoobond said:
so space channel 5 and parappa the rapper are non-games?
Of course not. It educational software.I AM JOHN! said:
EO isn't shitty. It's not AAA, but there are far worse games they reviewed in that issue for multiple consoles. EO got an 8.0 on 1up, so chances are if it got a real review in EGm it would have a silver award, and some pretty decent scores.
JonathanEx
Member
What's it teaching, the numbers one to nine?avatar299 said:
DevelopmentArrested
Banned
I AM JOHN! said:
Now your trolling went from thinly veiled to blatantly bad. Congrats.
I didn't know 8/10 games were shitty fucking ones.
But hey at least you admitted that it is indeed a game.
avatar299 said:
Well I said before, if he is wrong about what's in the game then call him out on that, I just can't say since I haven't played it.
I don't think people are saying genres change that quick, but rather:
1. Perhaps the "non-game" term is an easy way to group games of this type together. Maybe you'd like them to be called something else? Or what would you classify EO as?
2. People think a genre shift can occur in more than one way. In other words genres change in other ways outside of just changing the very deep down core mechanics of a game. A common argument is everything is a clone of something else, but that doesn't necessarily make it so.
Foxtastical
Member
Music classification started with brit pop, shoegazing, spectralism and groove metal.
I AM JOHN!
Banned
Okay, where to begin?
Who the fuck said this? Every sensible response I've seen has pretty much stated: "If Crispin misrepresented this game and said that it doesn't have things that it does have, THAT is a problem. So what if he called it a nongame?" And why are you so fucking tied to pointless genre distinctions?avatar299 said:
Oh please.avatar299 said:
I should say: I haven't played the game, but I DID play Everblue 2, and that game was shit. So unless you're a huge Everblue fan, I'm going to wager that the love this game is getting is a classic case of Nintendonauts syndrome.
No, that was the only troll, since the fact that GAF is having a meltdown over this game being called a nongame blows my mind. Feel free to see above for my reasoning for hating Endless Ocean.DevelopmentArrested said:
There is a story ("help" the girl), time limit (air gauge) and missions/assignments (photographer/diving guide) with winning conditions.
You have to find treasures, solve "puzzles" (fill a room with water to continue) to open up new areas and unlock new diving gear: night diving lamp, fins, suits, gloves, larger tank (air gauge upgrade)
Guiding/pictures for diving mags get rated (score!) A-D iirc. It is possible to fail. Cover story/medium/small article/rejected.
Edit
You have to find treasures, solve "puzzles" (fill a room with water to continue) to open up new areas and unlock new diving gear: night diving lamp, fins, suits, gloves, larger tank (air gauge upgrade)
Guiding/pictures for diving mags get rated (score!) A-D iirc. It is possible to fail. Cover story/medium/small article/rejected.
Edit
Foxtastical
Member
GAF'ed.Tab0203 said:
Mad Decent
Banned
Captain Glanton said:
QFT..
PepsimanVsJoe
Member
Tab0203 said:
Ah shit I bought this game to relax. :lol
DevelopmentArrested
Banned
I AM JOHN! said:
I see.
GAF's had meltdowns over far less and it is stupid that EGM didn't review it.
Team Klimt
Member
Way to douche up the Thread Title. Bravo OP.
Assassin's might have gotten a low score from him, but he always backs up his scores with the text from the reviews. People do realize the numbers are based on one person's views and not just towing the company line... right?
In my opinion, this is why Ziff has the only mags worth reading. Actually reading, not just scanning GAF for the scores from the new EGM.
Boyer is the bees knees, and anyone who has any clue about games journalism in the last.. I don't know, TEN YEARS would know that and realize they were throwing themselves in as shark bait with an absurd thread like this.
GO CRISPIN AND GO GAME.COM BATMAN AND ROBIN!!!
Assassin's might have gotten a low score from him, but he always backs up his scores with the text from the reviews. People do realize the numbers are based on one person's views and not just towing the company line... right?
In my opinion, this is why Ziff has the only mags worth reading. Actually reading, not just scanning GAF for the scores from the new EGM.
Boyer is the bees knees, and anyone who has any clue about games journalism in the last.. I don't know, TEN YEARS would know that and realize they were throwing themselves in as shark bait with an absurd thread like this.
GO CRISPIN AND GO GAME.COM BATMAN AND ROBIN!!!
I AM JOHN!
Banned
Hey at least I'm honest and have reasons besides "LOL NONGAME".DevelopmentArrested said:
1) Those meltdowns are equally laughable.
2) Is it also stupid that they don't review games like Luxor 2 or American Girl?
I can see how it can be hard to categorize some games. What genre exactly is Endless Ocean?
Well, whatever it is, it's not of the genre "Non"-game. Because "Non"-game is not a genre, it's just a derogatory term. Which you can see easily by the fact that the term does nothing to describe the game.
Also, the definition of "video-game" is incredibly easy. It's something that you can somehow run with a console or a computer, and that is described by the developer as game.
If someone gives you a bugged version of Doom, that crashes upon starting it, you would still call it a game. (Much like Big Rigs was, and is considered a game)
Endless Ocean allows you to do more than that bugged version of Doom (and more than Big Rigs), so naturally, it is a game.
Whether it's a good game or not is another matter. That bugged version of Doom certainly wouldn't be, and it would probably not even get reviewed. Is Endless Ocean bad enough not to get reviewed? Judging by experiences and reviews: No, it isn't.
What we see is merely some idiots getting upset because companies have finally realized there are people other than 12-22 year old males.
Well, whatever it is, it's not of the genre "Non"-game. Because "Non"-game is not a genre, it's just a derogatory term. Which you can see easily by the fact that the term does nothing to describe the game.
Also, the definition of "video-game" is incredibly easy. It's something that you can somehow run with a console or a computer, and that is described by the developer as game.
If someone gives you a bugged version of Doom, that crashes upon starting it, you would still call it a game. (Much like Big Rigs was, and is considered a game)
Endless Ocean allows you to do more than that bugged version of Doom (and more than Big Rigs), so naturally, it is a game.
Whether it's a good game or not is another matter. That bugged version of Doom certainly wouldn't be, and it would probably not even get reviewed. Is Endless Ocean bad enough not to get reviewed? Judging by experiences and reviews: No, it isn't.
What we see is merely some idiots getting upset because companies have finally realized there are people other than 12-22 year old males.
Uh ... I really don't think liking xenogears means you have a good gaming taste.
DevelopmentArrested
Banned
I AM JOHN! said:
No, but you comparing EO to those games is rather stupid.
It isn't a non-game, and I'm suprised I'm the one one who's tied to genre distinctions when you guys are more than happen to eliminate multiple games just to create this non-game crap.I AM JOHN! said:
It's one thing to raise some artificial bar. It's another thing to say"well genres completely change whenever the fuck we want. when did the adventure genre change so much that EO is no longer an adventure game, but now a non-game? What year? What game made that happen?"
Call of Duty 3 was boring. I guess Call of Duty 4 must suck as well.
What reasoning. You haven't even proved you have played Everblue 2.
I AM JOHN!
Banned
Okay, maybe those aren't the best examples, but they're the first things that came off the top of my head.DevelopmentArrested said:
The point I'm struggling to get at is: do you think it's a problem that EGM usually does not review other such "non" or "casual" games? And should they?
I AM JOHN!
Banned
Well, that shuts me up.avatar299 said:
I could go into why I don't like Everblue 2, but does it really matter? Should we really be turning this thread into "why (I AM) John baselessly hates a game because he rented a previous one in the series for a day and hated it"?
StarscreamLSU
Member
Flynn said:
No its not. That's closer to the definition of "play". "Game" implies some sort of goal or structure.
No, EGM has always ignored low budget games, whether it's casual games or hardcore indie PC games. No one expects reviews of irrelevant games.I AM JOHN! said:Okay, maybe those aren't the best examples, but they're the first things that came off the top of my head.
The point I'm struggling to get at is: do you think it's a problem that EGM usually does not review other such "non" or "casual" games? And should they?
But when a game is getting media coverage, and decent scores. It should be covered.
Yeah, it kinda does. At the very least it gives you some sort of credibility.I AM JOHN! said:Well, that shuts me up.
I could go into why I don't like Everblue 2, but does it really matter?
Right now you're just saying " Endless Ocean sucks becuase I said so."
hclflow said:
Oh, yes. This certainly is making EGM more irrelevant. I mean, there's no backlash at all on the Internet. No one cares about this.
/sarcasm
Anyway, in typical GAF fashion, people are livid over nothing. EGM is a publication that can choose what they cover, and they felt it was unnecessary to review Endless Ocean. That's all you guys need to know, but instead you start attacking Crispin personally for sharing why the decision was made.
Nobody cares about Endless Ocean. Why anyone would get their panties in a wad over a game that nobody cares about is beyond me. It's stupid to say that this will hurt EGM, because Endless Ocean isn't even marketed towards the people that read the magazine.
In the end, this just comes down to one thing: people hate the idea of other people having an opinion that differs from their own. A lot of people posting are still sore because Crispin gave AC a 4.5, and then there are the people that disagree with his definition of a game. It's just a difference of opinion, so calm down. The world isn't coming to a fucking end.
Xisiqomelir
Member
If they reviewed Ever Blue (and LOOK, they DID!) then they can review this.
StarscreamLSU said:
It implies goal and structure to gamers, because that's what we're used to. And I'd argue that the games code, the rules for the simulation, offer tons of structure.
But lets look at the actual definition of the word "game."
Dictionary.com
Merriam Webster
It's only further down in the definition of "game" where rules and goals come into play -- usually the third definition. This means that, while games can have rules and goals, their exclusion does not render a game a so called "non-game."
EGM said:
Interesting, because this looks like a review to me!
Tab0203 said:
...And perhaps a bad review? If the above EGM blurb was all that was mentioned in the magazine, then did the 1up crew play this game for more than five minutes?
Endless Ocean certainly does seem like a "non-game," though, and I doubt the majority of EGM's readers care if it gets reviewed or not.
DjangoReinhardt
Thinks he should have been the one to kill Batman's parents.
Oxford says a "game" is:
and "play" is:
Crispin says a "game" is:
and if it's about diving:
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