I've seen people saying he has the exact same model as the wheelchair gun dudes, but haven't checked myself, and therefore would be just a blood minister, not any key figure like Laurence or anything like that.
No mercy for wheelchair.
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Bloodborne Story and Lore Discussion Thread [Unmarked Spoilers]
- Thread starter GorillaJu
- Start date
I've seen people saying he has the exact same model as the wheelchair gun dudes, but haven't checked myself, and therefore would be just a blood minister, not any key figure like Laurence or anything like that.
No mercy for wheelchair.
MegaSackman
Member
He lost his eyes so in a way he escaped the dream or something like that, I don't think he's Gehrman either, unless he'd be the "real world" Gehrman but I'd need arguments to convince me on that.
Edit: I see that the way I wrote seems like losing your eyes is a way out of the dream but I didn't mean to say that. XD
Edit2: What I meant is that he probably knew too much and somehow lost/took out his eyes to stop seeing things/going crazy, Why does he only appear at the beggining? I think it's related to this reality =/= dream theory.
he's like a mixture of Djura and those wheelchair guys you encounter
so yeah, just a generic hunter then.
Deified Data
Banned
Maybe he's not important, but the contract seems like it is. You were "chosen" by someone for some reason, it doesn't seem random.
MegaSackman
Member
Well if we can be guided by movies and how to write a script, the first thing you see in a movie is NEVER irrelevant.
Most of the time the first thing you see in a movie is just an establishing shot or a set up for the story.
MegaSackman
Member
I think the guy is irrelevant. The contract is, of course, important but I also think that Where he is? is important too.
Deified Data
Banned
This is true and not something I've given much thought to.
I mean, you wake up in Ioesfka's Clinic and at the end of the game you're revealed to be an infant Great One - certainly not a coincidence.
yeah, and you're a foreigner and the first line the wheelchair guy says "oh yes paleblood" as if you had just asked him where to find or what is paleblood. Someone obviously told you to ask about paleblood but not what it is. Also it's weird that if you were a hunter before you got to Yharnam why you had to hunter garbs or weapons and it was not till after you got transfused and sent to the Hunter's Dream that you get something.
Deified Data
Banned
True, it definitely seems like you're an average nobody ailing from the Beast Plague before you get to Yarnham.
I always felt like Iosefka never really existed. She never used the blood to cure people of their ailments, they were running experiments on desperate people to try to find someone who is resistant to beasthood. The Celestial beings discovered her clinic and recognized it as an easy way to try experiments on humans and try to find one that is resistant to the old blood enough to become a hunter and hunt the beasts and try to put an end to mankind's attempt to ascend to become a great one or communicate with the "gods".
I think you might have been a random outsider who came to the clinic to seek healing. The clinic was never intended to heal but it gave that illusion to commonfolk, Iosefka had a contract with the Celestial Beings to try to find a "hunter".
They inject you with the blood to "cure" you, your body resists the urge to succumb to beasthood? and therefor the dialog ensues "You've found yourself a hunter." I think the man at the start is Ghernam and he is working with Iosefka and the Celestial beings to stop mankinds desire to find a way to ascend to the Great Ones.
The "healing church" of Yarnham was on the other end of the spectrum experimenting with the blood to try to ascend. Ghernam, Iosefka and the Celestial Beings are working together to put an end to that.
To be noted I haven't finished the game yet, but from what I've seen so far this is my impressions...
A Hunter who can no longer dream, who might be outside of the nightmare, he does say "you can think of everything that happens after this as a dream", and you never see him again, suggesting the entire game was that dream. You're probably individually nothing special(I mean I was a waste of skin), just another person to be a hunter in the nightmare. I've heard other people say he's Laurence and that the skull in the VA boss room is his skull.
Orochinagis
Member
Looking at his assets he looks like one of the random chairwheel dudes with his lighters but without becoming a beast still.
Oh chosen undead.....
They do look old and I think the player is the only hunter this night.
Alfred? And Eileen can still dream when you first meet her.
Orochinagis
Member
I mean being called to the dream and being a Hunter , Eileen can die if she is killed on her first encounter and she confesses she can no longer dream until the very end while Alfred is just on his own now.
theSlacker
Member
The hat of the choir set kind of explains their fixation on covered eyes at least:
"Attire of the Choir, high-ranking members of the Healing Church.
Members of the Choir are both the highest-ranking clerics of the Healing Church, and scholars who continue the work that began at Byrgenwerth.
The eye covering indicates their debt to the teachings of Master Willem, even though their paths diverged."
They cover their eyes out of respect for Willem. I do not remember if it is ever mentioned why Willem has his eyes covered though. He does seem to have an obsession with eyes though.
SkylineRKR
Member
Yes its weird.
It seems they only appear at night, but are then being overrun after the veil has been lifted. Its genocide, trials should ensue.
Orochinagis
Member
Better than being implanted with numerous eyes to seek invisible things
It also stop frenzy!
Nah they started to kidnap everyone in Yharman for a free eye removal
Beelzebufo
Banned
I don't see any of Durja in him at all really. He's just wearing Choir clothes. Only standout part is his hats a little bigger, but not like Durja.
Seems to be a minister.
I wonder why so many people have wheelchairs in general. Like Gehrman doesn't need his, and in the middle ending you get one too lol.
the covered eyes and facial hair!
Beelzebufo
Banned
Good call on the facial hair! But everyone has covered eyes
Beasts, hunters, Choir, Willem.
indigo-cyclops
Member
Blindfold cap is my new jam. Helps with enlightenment to the cosmic joke.
..oh right!
and you find Iosefka's vial next to the Queen in the Nightmare as well, so her role in the story must certainly be bigger than just the mad Choir woman who experimented on NPCs
justjustin
Member
Sorry if it's been discussed, but has anyone else ran across some strange dialog when dying to the bloodletting beast in the final Ptumeru dungeon? "The time has come again I fear. But if the fates smile upon us we will meet again. Farewell, dear friend." Maybe it was coincidence but it seemed to happen when I used Ludwig's Holy Blade and not other weapons. Only heard it a couple times.
Another disembodied voice spoke some cryptic lines as soon as I entered the Hunter's Dream warping back from somewhere. The same phenomenon happened when I entered the house/workshop a different time. Too bad I can't remember what those were. They all seem like different voices, though.
Another disembodied voice spoke some cryptic lines as soon as I entered the Hunter's Dream warping back from somewhere. The same phenomenon happened when I entered the house/workshop a different time. Too bad I can't remember what those were. They all seem like different voices, though.
Beelzebufo
Banned
Considering that there are blue aliens (and all those corpses) in the forest, I wonder what made a different choir member come in and transform Iosafka, since jt seems that she was crazy all along, yeah?
I wonder if the one you meet at the beginning of the game is the imposter for whatever reason.
Kos (or some say Kosm) appears to be a great one, and possibly the most important one (like a God of sorts) since he apparently created Rom from a person.
Some other great one, possibly father to Ebrietas? Kos/Kosm----Cosmos? The Sky and Cosmos are one? that last bit is me just stretching.
I think Yurt and Beezle are right. Killing Rom gets YOU knowledge and thus you can see the Amygdalas... But while other people can see the blood moon, they don't see the Great Ones. Makes sense to me.
Several dev notes point to the fact that others can see the blood moon.
Also I never noticed this before because I never killed Willem until my latest play-through (but this time he got a rapier in the butt cause I wanted his rune), but his blood isn't red. It's white, like the baby suckers in the choir, and like various other celestial beings. So if you're wondering how Willem could survive so long as he's already old and in his chair during Laurence's memory, it's because he's not at all human anymore.
Several dev notes point to the fact that others can see the blood moon.
Also I never noticed this before because I never killed Willem until my latest play-through (but this time he got a rapier in the butt cause I wanted his rune), but his blood isn't red. It's white, like the baby suckers in the choir, and like various other celestial beings. So if you're wondering how Willem could survive so long as he's already old and in his chair during Laurence's memory, it's because he's not at all human anymore.
I heard that too. I mean, I only caught the last part "Farewell, dear friend" and was like "WTF was that".
I was also using Ludwig's.
Micolash differentiates between Kos and the cosmos. Unless he's just figuring out the link as youre fighting him, I think the 'cosmos' as per Mensis' understanding is more likely "The grand lake of mud, hidden now, from sight." I think Kos is probably the deity of the cosmos, like Oedon is the deity of blood.
The lake theme comes up a lot, given how many runes are named after lakes and seas, and runes are just the words of the Great Ones. It seems that perhaps the Great Ones' realm is manifested as a body of water... or rather mud?
I'm hopeless :lol
Augemitbutter
Member
i heard that 3-4x and was not using ludwig's. i asked in the OT but nobody knew anything about it when it happened.
indigo-cyclops
Member
Gehrman has a got-dang pegleg!
Raven Prime
Member
The irony though is that even that article is like 50% Gehrman and 50% Gerhman.
Augemitbutter
Member
Yup that's pretty much it IMO. The Yarhnam you're in is still very much the real world.
It's because at the end of the current night's hunt Gehrman kicks you out, willing or not.
This is also puzzling to me, the Wet Nurse has no particularly important role, yet is the final world boss you beat and we're told "nightmare slain" once we beat her. I really don't get her significance at all. Why is your hunt over once we beat that one boss?
As I said I don't agree with this theory that killing the spider doesn't change anything, the rest of the story was bound to happen anyway.
The game states clearly that Rom with his rituals is keeping the old gods away from us.
When the moon becomes red a great one child will be born.
When you kill Rom lots of things happen. Red moon finally appears, the Queen with blood on her womb appears precisely in the lake suggesting that Mergo is finally born in the Mensis nightmare dimension and what triggered it were the events in the lake, also you can finally see the great ones in cathedral ward and you get the message "ritual secret broken, seek the nightmare newborn".
I don't think all of this can be a coincidence.
Imo Rom was at least used to prevent the red moon to happen in some way and there are hints that he was a human turned into a Great One with blood experiments, he got the eyes of knowledge of super beings but became mindless, Willem probably wanted to use those eyes putting his mind in control, at the same time he feared the old blood and the consequences of the rituals of Mensis and wanted to prevent a red moon from happening.
So basically we have two dream dimensions controlled by two different great ones, Mergo in the Micolash dream and the Moon Presence in the Gehrnam's dream.
Hunters are clearly used by the Moon Presence and his servant Gehrnam for its own interests. Does the Moon Presence want to get rid of Mergo?
Is there a conflict among great ones?
I don't get what the moon presence wants to achieve, its own blood child? Blood echoes to be more powerful, trying a way to get access to our dimension and rule it?
Also I don't quite understand why if Micolash is now dead as a mummy in Yarghul he's still alive in the dream dimension. If you get killed in the dream you wake up and the great one in it needs an other host (as with Gehrman getting killed by us), but what happens with the Mensis nightmare goes against such rules, the dreamer is dead but he's still trapped in the dream, then both him and the great one in the nigthmare are killed but the dimension continues to exist...wtf?
I get the impression that the hunt that we participate in is aimed at killing Mergo.
I think that one interpretation might be that the nurse is actually the personification of the newborn power. He still is an infant but with his huge power being a great one he can summon this guardian figure.
You kill Micolash and the Nurse (which is actually the newborn) and red moon is over, this hunting night is over.
Of course it's just speculation, I wish the dev team released their story document ahaha
Yep that is clearly what Gehrnam and the Moon Presence want us to do in the game, but the endings are really puzzling, the hunting supposedly continues, it's something cyclic, so what happens now with Rom and Mergo being killed?
Well we know that Yharnam has a cycle, and other blood moons have been seen in the past, so maybe other newborn Great Ones were killed in past cycles. Gehrman says to you that the church people can't really recall what hunters and their purpose are, which to me says that the current hunt has nothing to do with the original purpose of killing beasts, and we're just introduced to it in that way to get us strong enough to eventually fight Great Ones. And if you don't succeed in destroying the newborn Great One, the night still ends, the hunt ends, and there's a new Great One.
Or not.
indigo-cyclops
Member
One thing that caught my attention regarding Mergo's Wet Nurse is her arms are quite familiar to those of the early human enemies in CY and places like that. Long, hairy, beastly.
so is laurence the one reborn? because the way GERHMAN is talking he seems to think he'll be back.
Also looking round the forsaken village it would seem that some folks either went super nova by accident or by choice and this lead folks to get phased into the buildings. It also seeems to not be another dimension or something but just a place locked off from the rest of Yarnham.
Also looking round the forsaken village it would seem that some folks either went super nova by accident or by choice and this lead folks to get phased into the buildings. It also seeems to not be another dimension or something but just a place locked off from the rest of Yarnham.
Beelzebufo
Banned
As I said I don't agree with this theory that killing the spider doesn't change anything, the rest of the story was bound to happen anyway.
The game states clearly that Rom with his rituals is keeping the old gods away from us.
When the moon becomes red a great one child will be born.
When you kill Rom lots of things happen. Red moon finally appears, the Queen with blood on her womb appears precisely in the lake suggesting that Mergo is finally born in the Mensis nightmare dimension and what triggered it were the events in the lake, also you can finally see the great ones in cathedral ward and you get the message "ritual secret broken, seek the nightmare newborn".
I don't think all of this can be a coincidence.
Imo Rom was at least used to prevent the red moon to happen in some way and there are hints that he was a human turned into a Great One with blood experiments, he got the eyes of knowledge of super beings but became mindless, Willem probably wanted to use those eyes putting his mind in control, at the same time he feared the old blood and the consequences of the rituals of Mensis and wanted to prevent a red moon from happening.
So basically we have two dream dimensions controlled by two different great ones, Mergo in the Micolash dream and the Moon Presence in the Gehrnam's dream.
Hunters are clearly used by the Moon Presence and his servant Gehrnam for its own interests. Does the Moon Presence want to get rid of Mergo?
Is there a conflict among great ones?
I don't get what the moon presence wants to achieve, its own blood child? Blood echoes to be more powerful, trying a way to get access to our dimension and rule it?
Also I don't quite understand why if Micolash is now dead as a mummy in Yarghul he's still alive in the dream dimension. If you get killed in the dream you wake up and the great one in it needs an other host (as with Gehrman getting killed by us), but what happens with the Mensis nightmare goes against such rules, the dreamer is dead but he's still trapped in the dream, then both him and the great one in the nigthmare are killed but the dimension continues to exist...wtf?
The game never ever says that Rom carries out any rituals at all, let alone he's keeping the Gosa away. It says the opposite, that Rom does nothing and shares nothing simply because he can not. It even suggests he aborted his brain.
All of that stuff you say happens "because" of Rom is simply a visual expression of the knowledge you now have, except for the Moon which is simply the passage of time, as the notes say.
When it says "ritual secret broken", it means exactly that. The ritual is no longer a secret because you learned what Rom knows, and he knows a lot of rituals, he doesn't carry them out. You seem to be reading it as "secret ritual broken", which is something else entirely.
I'm sorry, but even they examples you give support the interpretation that nothing changes except what you see and know haha.
Maybe I'll do a write up with quotes so it's more straightforward, I know this stuff is complicated haha, I have to double check myself when I'm writing out these posts.
Also, it's weird that I'm sad for the brain after killing it, even though it's probably the most terrifying enemy, is told to be evil, and has been trying to kill me.
Edit: Just fought the Wet Nurse again. Pretty sure Mergo's the nightmare child, and you do kill it. The Wetnurse protects the baby (by making it invisible like the Wetnurse itself is? Does 99 insight let you see it's face?) and fights you. After you kill it the Wet Nurse music stops, but you still hear the crying baby. The "Nigjtmare Slaughtered" message doesn't show up until you wait... and wait... and the cry gets softer and softer...
Pretty sure that's Mergo dying.
Whoaa I never noticed either! Even though I've fucking killed him in all my playthroughs heh
eot
Banned
Yeah, that part is brutal. Its eyes track you as you move around too.
Btw, did anyone think their game was glitched when they took that cage down? I used a bold hunters mark the first time because I was afraid I was outside the map.