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Occam · Mar 12, 2015

Why don't they just revoke any fraudulently purchased licenses and then refund the money to the owner of the original account?

That seems like the sensible thing to do.

EDIT:
Further idea: For any purchased game, require the buyer to go online twice. Once at the time of purchase, and once after a week (or whatever), and simply deactivate the game automatically after the set period is up until the console goes online again, at which time the license is either made permanent or revoked, if the purchase was fraudulent. So temp license for a week, permanent license afterwards.

Zeyphersan · Mar 12, 2015

Is their system capable of removing licenses from an account on the back-end? Honest question, it may not be.

Occam · Mar 12, 2015

Zeyphersan said:
Is their system capable on removing licenses from an account on the back-end? Honest question, it may not be.

I honestly have no idea, hence this thread.

SEGAvangelist · Mar 12, 2015

Zeyphersan said:
Is their system capable on removing licenses from an account on the back-end? Honest question, it may not be.

This is what I'm thinking too.

anexanhume · Mar 12, 2015

Perhaps there's a publisher fueled fear of people taking consoles offline forever with the games and still having access to them.

DocSeuss · Mar 12, 2015

I think they're big and they know they can bully people into just accepting their ludicrous $150 max policy.

Zeyphersan said:
Is their system capable of removing licenses from an account on the back-end? Honest question, it may not be.

They can, as far as I know, since they're able to refund people for games, which would indicate that people can get individual games removed.

UCBooties · Mar 12, 2015

Zeyphersan said:
Is their system capable of removing licenses from an account on the back-end? Honest question, it may not be.

Yes, Sony can absolutely remove licenses. My account got hacked and some card balance I had on there was used to buy Fight Night or some shit. I got support to refund the credit and the next day the game was gone from my download list.

Occam · Mar 12, 2015

anexanhume said:
Perhaps there's a publisher fueled fear of people taking consoles offline forever with the games and still having access to them.

Isn't that what a criminal who used the account of someone else to make fraudulent purchases can do right now anyway?

Zeyphersan · Mar 12, 2015

UCBooties said:
Yes, Sony can absolutely remove licenses. My account got hacked and some card balance I had on there was used to buy Fight Night or some shit. I got support to refund the credit and the next day the game was gone from my download list.

So there's the answer. As to why they don't do this all the time, it sounds like there's no company-wide policy regarding this stuff, so it's up to whatever manager/CS guy who happened to be in contact with at the time

Occam · Mar 12, 2015

Zeyphersan said:
So there's the answer. As to why they don't do this all the time, it sounds like there's no company-wide policy regarding this stuff, so it's up to whatever manager/CS guy who happened to be in contact with at the time

Yeah, if they can do that, it makes no sense not to handle it like this all the time.

weemadarthur · Mar 12, 2015

Frankly your solution sounds too simplistic to work

DannyDanger · Mar 12, 2015

weemadarthur said:
Frankly your solution sounds too simplistic to work

??

PoweredByHentai · Mar 12, 2015

Zeyphersan said:
Is their system capable of removing licenses from an account on the back-end? Honest question, it may not be.

I think this might be the case. I mentioned in another thread that I manage a license usage tracking server for the various software tools that my company's developers use.

I can add tools and records to it but there is no way for me to mark a tool as having been deprecated without going through a lot of red tape.

Syriel · Mar 12, 2015

Zeyphersan said:
Is their system capable of removing licenses from an account on the back-end? Honest question, it may not be.

Yes. It can be done by any customer service agent.

They can't easily ADD licenses (at least CS isn't allowed to do so), but they can revoke that stuff with the quickness if they want.

zephervack · Mar 12, 2015

What happens in this scenario :

Scenario A:

User purchases $1000 worth of games
User calls customer support and claims his account got hacked
Sony deactivates the games from the system so they cant be downloaded again.
User never goes online again with the same username so user gets the money plus the games as long as he doesnt need to install them again.
User plays games with another account on the same PS4

Disclaimer, im not fully informed how the game/account access works on PS4, but something like that might be preventing them from just refunding them willy nilly.

KiefbladeMaster · Mar 12, 2015

zephervack said:
What happens in this scenario :

I think them withdrawing the license isn't only for the right to download, though. You can't play them either.

coolasj19 · Mar 12, 2015

zephervack said:
What happens in this scenario :
Scenario A:
User purchases $1000 worth of games
User calls customer support and claims his account got hacked
Sony deactivates the games from the system so they cant be downloaded again.
User never goes online again with the same username so user gets the money plus the games as long as he doesnt need to install them again.
User plays games with another account on the same PS4
Disclaimer, im not fully informed how the game/account access works on PS4, but something like that might be preventing them from just refunding them willy nilly.

Oh it's even better than that. You can still play the games even when your online. Even going online with the games. I got a refund for Driveclub and literally the only catch is that I can't redownload it until I pay for it again. The reason they don't "Just revoke the licenses" is because it essentially doesn't really do anything. I also did the same with Dustforce Vita (which still never got patched apparently).

Just so everyone knows.
Revoking licenses doesn't revoke your ability to play the game, just download it.

joecanada · Mar 12, 2015

zephervack said:
What happens in this scenario :

Scenario A:

User purchases $1000 worth of games
User calls customer support and claims his account got hacked
Sony deactivates the games from the system so they cant be downloaded again.
User never goes online again with the same username so user gets the money plus the games as long as he doesnt need to install them again.
User plays games with another account on the same PS4

Disclaimer, im not fully informed how the game/account access works on PS4, but something like that might be preventing them from just refunding them willy nilly.

seems odd that sony wouldn't be able to trace accounts to a certain console.... i guess its not possible ? why can't they ban the console that the games were downloaded to?

mrg6290 · Mar 12, 2015

coolasj19 said:
Oh it's even better than that. You can still play the games even when your online. Even going online with the games. I got a refund for Driveclub and literally the only catch is that I can't redownload it until I pay for it again. The reason they don't "Just revoke the licenses" is because it essentially doesn't really do anything. I also did the same with Dustforce Vita (which still never got patched apparently).

Just so everyone knows.
Revoking licenses doesn't revoke your ability to play the game, just download it.

This can't be true can it? I thought they did some license check. Or is it the case that the game is just checking against a local license that never "stales" and can't be remotely revoked by Sony?

Seems strange.

Archaix · Mar 12, 2015

DocSeuss said:
I think they're big and they know they can bully people into just accepting their ludicrous $150 max policy.

Yep. Because "fuck you, make us."

Derpyduck · Mar 12, 2015

Zeyphersan said:
Is their system capable of removing licenses from an account on the back-end? Honest question, it may not be.

Yes it is. For people that asked for refunds on Driveclub, the license was revoked, which also removed the ability to play the game.

onQ123 · Mar 12, 2015

Occam said:
Why don't they just revoke any fraudulently purchased licenses and then refund the money to the owner of the original account?

That seems like the sensible thing to do.

I think that would come with the DRM system that everyone was afraid of because it would mean that you never own the games you buy.

SerTapTap · Mar 12, 2015

UCBooties said:
Yes, Sony can absolutely remove licenses. My account got hacked and some card balance I had on there was used to buy Fight Night or some shit. I got support to refund the credit and the next day the game was gone from my download list.

Yes, they also revoke games if you ask, people do it to buy PS+ games for real.

mrg6290 said:
This can't be true can it? I thought they did some license check. Or is it the case that the game is just checking against a local license that never "stales" and can't be remotely revoked by Sony?

Seems strange.

Maybe they'd have to force-deactivate the console? Which is a thing users can do. I don't see anything wrong with revoking the license + force deactivate all consoles personally. Slightly annoying but should be only a minor annoyance to valid users and a roadblock for invalid ones.

DocSeuss said:
I think they're big and they know they can bully people into just accepting their ludicrous $150 max policy.

Not sure it's to do with the $150 max thing--they'll allow you to go over $150 if they need to give you money for a promo, you just can't manually add >$150.

Is there some legal/liability/something reason for that BTW? It's a huge pain in the ass. "don't give us too much money!" okay then.

Maximo · Mar 12, 2015

Aren't you the same dude from last night that made a Thread in Regards to Streamers ? Im not shitting on this thread but it feels like you go around making Threads for your opinions which can very well fit into..2 current threads going on, however if im stepping out of line and this thread is relevant then by all means continue.

Kumubou · Mar 12, 2015

mrg6290 said:
This can't be true can it? I thought they did some license check. Or is it the case that the game is just checking against a local license that never "stales" and can't be remotely revoked by Sony?

Seems strange.

You would have to connect the console to the Internet, since Sony can't remotely deauthorize a console without that console being connected. However, because PSN is an amazing piece of engineering, it only properly deauths when that exact user logs onto PSN, not just that console. So you can create a dummy account, buy a bunch of stuff, have it deauthorized for one reason or another, and it'll work online on that console for other users.

Sir TapTap said:
Not sure it's to do with the $150 max thing--they'll allow you to go over $150 if they need to give you money for a promo, you just can't manually add >$150.

Is there some legal/liability/something reason for that BTW? It's a huge pain in the ass. "don't give us too much money!" okay then.

I imagine it would be a liability concern, both against credit card fraud and other legal errata. I know for a while a common fraud issue on XBL were shell accounts people would create to dump XBL points obtained from fraudulent purchases from online retailers, and then the accounts would be sold blank with the points loaded. Having a limit on credit like that would effectively put a cap on that practice.

The heck do you need that much sitting on PSN, anyway?

ALLseeingEYE · Mar 12, 2015

Occam said:
Why don't they just revoke any fraudulently purchased licenses and then refund the money to the owner of the original account?

That seems like the sensible thing to do.

Exactly, there really is no excuse for them not to comply with this. His stolen money went straight into their wallets. Just refund the money, and revoke the licenses, and everyone goes back to normal.

Having said that, it almost sounds borderline illegal for Sony to without refunding someone for stolen goods. Especially since there is no loss for them.

Zeyphersan said:
Is their system capable of removing licenses from an account on the back-end? Honest question, it may not be.

This is kind of irrelevant. If they honestly don't have that technology, it needs to be implemented asap. I'm sure they can absolutely do it, it would be complete and utter incompetence for them not to have that power.

Dazza · Mar 12, 2015

coolasj19 said:
Oh it's even better than that. You can still play the games even when your online. Even going online with the games. I got a refund for Driveclub and literally the only catch is that I can't redownload it until I pay for it again. The reason they don't "Just revoke the licenses" is because it essentially doesn't really do anything. I also did the same with Dustforce Vita (which still never got patched apparently).

Just so everyone knows.
Revoking licenses doesn't revoke your ability to play the game, just download it.

So even if you go press restore all licenses it doesn't revoke it? I assume you have your PS4 set as the primary home console

mrg6290 · Mar 12, 2015

Kumubou said:
You would have to connect the console to the Internet, since Sony can't remotely deauthorize a console without that console being connected. However, because PSN is an amazing piece of engineering, it only properly deauths when that exact user logs onto PSN, not just that console. So you can create a dummy account, buy a bunch of stuff, have it deauthorized for one reason or another, and it'll work online on that console for other users.

That makes more sense. I wonder if that is what coolasj19 was referring to.

The way I read his post the first time made it sound like even if you are online with the exact user who purchased the "revoked" content you could still play it unless you deleted it yourself. Didn't make sense to me.

UncleSporky · Mar 12, 2015

zephervack said:
What happens in this scenario :

Scenario A:

User purchases $1000 worth of games
User calls customer support and claims his account got hacked
Sony deactivates the games from the system so they cant be downloaded again.
User never goes online again with the same username so user gets the money plus the games as long as he doesnt need to install them again.
User plays games with another account on the same PS4

Disclaimer, im not fully informed how the game/account access works on PS4, but something like that might be preventing them from just refunding them willy nilly.

"Certainly sir, the money will be refunded as soon as we detect that this console has connected to the internet again so the games could be properly deactivated, or after a period of 2 years has passed."

Vagabundo · Mar 12, 2015

zephervack said:
What happens in this scenario :

Scenario A:

User purchases $1000 worth of games
User calls customer support and claims his account got hacked
Sony deactivates the games from the system so they cant be downloaded again.
User never goes online again with the same username so user gets the money plus the games as long as he doesnt need to install them again.
User plays games with another account on the same PS4

Disclaimer, im not fully informed how the game/account access works on PS4, but something like that might be preventing them from just refunding them willy nilly.

This assumes that they cannot tell that Hacker downloaded the games to the Account Owner's own console.

It would be trivial for Sony to stop this kind of fraud with some interantl procedures and investigation.

Aureon · Mar 12, 2015

Occam said:
Why don't they just revoke any fraudulently purchased licenses and then refund the money to the owner of the original account?

That seems like the sensible thing to do.

Offline system is kept offline.
In fact, now that i think of it, fraudsters (unless caught!) will actually get to keep playing said games.

Also, most likely, purchases would get rerouted to publishers, so refunding is actually having them at a loss.

Tigress · Mar 12, 2015

Occam said:
Why don't they just revoke any fraudulently purchased licenses and then refund the money to the owner of the original account?

That seems like the sensible thing to do.

Because, hey, free money.

From their POV (I'm not saying they are being ethical or that I think they are right in thinking this way), except for making sure customers are happy with them and trust them, they benefit from not refunding the money and discouraging you to do chargebacks by banning you if you do. Why should they care if it's a stolen card info when they got paid for it and they have no reason to refund you (they don't care about the PR, they don't care about keeping you as a customer, and you might do a chargeback but they can threaten you with banning your account and you losing everything you spent on that account).

And apparently Sony doesn't care about bad PR so, hey, why not keep the money? It's not like they are losing customers over this (or enough to care about).

Basically, until this becomes a big enough black eye for them that it is really hurting their sales, it's kinda like free money. Short sighted (hopefully) on their part, but I'm betting they simply don't care cause they don't see a big enough reason why they should care and it's money they don't want to give back.

Oh, I say hopefully short sighted cause if their cycnicism is right and people aren't going to make a big enough fuss about it, they will continue to act as such.

UncleSporky · Mar 12, 2015

Vagabundo said:
This assumes that they cannot tell that Hacker downloaded the games to the Account Owner's own console.

It would be trivial for Sony to stop this kind of fraud with some interantl procedures and investigation.

User claims the console was stolen and the console was set to remember his CC info.

autoduelist · Mar 12, 2015

If the stolen account is put on a ps4, used to buy content, and then the PS4 is removed from the internet you wouldn't be able to effectively revoke the licenses.

ttech10 · Mar 12, 2015

zephervack said:
What happens in this scenario :

Scenario A:

User purchases $1000 worth of games
User calls customer support and claims his account got hacked
Sony deactivates the games from the system so they cant be downloaded again.
User never goes online again with the same username so user gets the money plus the games as long as he doesnt need to install them again.
User plays games with another account on the same PS4

Disclaimer, im not fully informed how the game/account access works on PS4, but something like that might be preventing them from just refunding them willy nilly.

This is why I wouldn't care if digital games "expired" after so many months. Force users to connect to the internet/PSN every 30-60 days for a license check on digital games.

I mean, I would assume people who are buying digitally don't have the issues with internet connections that those buying disc based games might, so there shouldn't be outrage over the required check-in. And if you do have issues with the check-in, don't buy digitally.

FinalStageBoss · Mar 12, 2015

They can remove a game from the download list but they can't access your console and delete shit. So if you've already downloaded the game and get a refund=free game.

Swarna · Mar 12, 2015

It's either incompetence or greed. Or both.

Incompetence being if they don't have the systems in place to facilitate this. Greed being if they know they can probably pocket some of the money if they they threaten the guy with banning access to his account.

I'm sure it will get resolved now, though, on account of the story blowing up.

Seriously, there's never a more wrong time to be a fanboy...

Occam · Mar 12, 2015

Got another idea regarding game activation, please read the updated OP.

autoduelist · Mar 12, 2015

Swarna said:
It's either incompetence or greed. Or both.

Incompetence being if they don't have the systems in place to facilitate this. Greed being if they know they can probably pocket some of the money if they they threaten the guy with banning access to his account.

I'm sure it will get resolved now, though, on account of the story blowing up.

Seriously, there's never a more wrong time to be a fanboy...

How is it incompetence OR greed if the console with the products installed is offline?

C'mon. Stop insulting people as fanboys simply because they actually understand the technology behind what Sony would need to be able to do. If the console is offline, then Sony can not deactivate.

Hugstable · Mar 12, 2015

I don't think they are able to just remove the game off someones HDD. They can revoke the license, but the game will still be working unless that person deletes it off the harddrive manually. It's one of the main reasons that they almost never do digital refunds.

Syriel · Mar 12, 2015

autoduelist said:
If the stolen account is put on a ps4, used to buy content, and then the PS4 is removed from the internet you wouldn't be able to effectively revoke the licenses.

If a $400 system is sacrificed just to keep ~$100-150 (PSN Wallet limit) of content alive that's still a net win for Sony as a new console has to be purchased to go online.

You're essentially talking about self-banning.

Netherscourge · Mar 12, 2015

Does Sony even INVESTIGATE fraud accusations or claims?

It sounds like they just wash their hands of the whole thing and refer everyone to their $150 PSN credit policy.

FlashFlooder · Mar 12, 2015

FinalStageBoss said:
They can remove a game from the download list but they can't access your console and delete shit. So if you've already downloaded the game and get a refund=free game.

So long as you never get back on PSN with that machine, yes

If they revoke a license and your system is online, it will eventually stop working. It's happened to me.

Mindlog · Mar 12, 2015

Making reasonable updates to their network costs X.
Reasonably flexible policies that deal with special cases costs N.
Blanket policies that screw everyone equally and avoids litigation costs Y.

X + N > Y

"We're sorry, but unfortunately we are unable to address this issue at the current time. You can be assured we have made every effort to prevent fraudulent activity on the SONY Playstation Entertainment Network. As always we encourage our users to vigorously protect their data through the use of strong unique passwords. Regretfully even after rendering payment for the fraudulent charges we are not allowed to restore licenses to your consoles in excess of the current rate. You may try again in six months. Any chargebacks are in violation of the EULA and will result in an instant ban. Be certain to download all of your digital titles before initiating a chargeback.

tearsintherain · Mar 12, 2015

No, they can definitely revoke digital licenses. It just takes a while. I bought Driveclub at launch, hated it for all the MP issues, and called in for a refund 4 days later and got it about 5 days after that. I could still play the game for about a month, but then suddenly one day the license got revoked and I couldn't launch it anymore. I can rebuy the game and play, I have no idea whats going to happen if/when a free PS+ version is released.

I suspect its more an issue that it takes so long and probably involves higher level supervisors (would be kinda messed up if entry level employees could just revoke licenses of friends etc) so they wanna do it as little as possible.

FinalStageBoss · Mar 12, 2015

FlashFlooder said:
So long as you never get back on PSN with that machine, yes

If they revoke a license and your system is online, it will eventually stop working. It's happened to me.

It happened to a friend of mine recently, his little brother used his card without his permission. Sony gave him a refund, a month later the game still works and he's always online. Maybe eventually it'll die but they beat it already lol.

autoduelist · Mar 12, 2015

Syriel said:
If a $400 system is sacrificed just to keep ~$100-150 (PSN Wallet limit) of content alive that's still a net win for Sony as a new console has to be purchased to go online.

You're essentially talking about self-banning.

The numbers being talking about in other threads are far higher than $150, presumably because the CC info is stolen.

I don't exactly want to create 'directions' for fraud, but this is what someone could do:

1) set up a secondary ps4 (different ip, preferably)

2) buy $500-$1000 worth of games on secondary ps4.

3) claim account compromised and demand refund.

This ps4 is now an offline only device while you play those games and bluray games. When you're ready to move on, sell this ps4 as used.

Is it ugly and criminal behavior? Absolutely. Is it fraudulent? Certainly. But if people are willing to defraud complete strangers and bilk them out of hundreds if not thousands of dollars on a regular basis through any means available, certainly you could see some might take advantage of this as well to bilk Sony out of money.

I will also note:

Sony supposedly does do some amount of research into these cases. They do not make this research public for obvious reasons. it is quite possible they determined that in the publicized cases that user fraud took place -- perhaps the content was bought from an IP that they often log in at (say, a friend's house). If the content was all bought from, say, a Russian IP Sony might refund the money. I am not saying they will, I am simply pointing out we do not have the information Sony does and they could have information that explains why they are refusing to refund.

Swarna · Mar 12, 2015

autoduelist said:
How is it incompetence OR greed if the console with the products installed is offline?

C'mon. Stop insulting people as fanboys simply because they actually understand the technology behind what Sony would need to be able to do. If the console is offline, then Sony can not deactivate.

Wasn't referring to the offline stuff, but, if the console goes offline then that is basically a unit that will never generate digital sales ever again. They could also just ban the console. Writing off the licenses wouldn't be such a big deal in that case especially now that online connectivity is so integral to current-gen. That person will have a neutered console that will at best play physical games without patches that may or may not work right.

Sony is being incompetent here. Their customer service is shit and they're getting bad PR for it at the moment. If this story didn't blow up the best thing this guy would have gotten after their "investigation" is $150 of shitty PSN money and 6 months without access to his account. If that isn't incompetence due to their systems being shitty then it's greed because they threatened to ban access to his account and digital licenses if he charge backed in order to make a quick buck.

The fanboy comment was for the people defending Sony and playing devil's advocate for them for...who knows what reason. Some guy in the other thread actually said "threads like this sicken me". lmao

Brofist · Mar 12, 2015

Zeyphersan said:
Is their system capable of removing licenses from an account on the back-end? Honest question, it may not be.

Its there forever, and there's nothing Sony can do about it.

BibiMaghoo · Mar 12, 2015

coolasj19 said:
Oh it's even better than that. You can still play the games even when your online. Even going online with the games. I got a refund for Driveclub and literally the only catch is that I can't redownload it until I pay for it again. The reason they don't "Just revoke the licenses" is because it essentially doesn't really do anything. I also did the same with Dustforce Vita (which still never got patched apparently).

Just so everyone knows.
Revoking licenses doesn't revoke your ability to play the game, just download it.

If the console has an internet connection enabled in the settings, the games will license check on launch. Because of this it would be impossible to play digital games with removed licenses online. I can only assume that in your cases, something was done that didn't revoke the license, just removed it from the download list.

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