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shadyspace · May 2, 2015

So this is something that has always struck me as something that should be accomplished but nigh impossible. The fact of the matter is that white people make up 70% of the US's population. Whether they know it or not (most likely do not), they benefit in all sorts of way from virtue of the fact of simply being white in America.

Now, let's say the concept of white privilege reaches the mainstream and somehow becomes widely accepted? Then what? How do you convince a group of people to willingly work towards, in this cutthroat capitalist society that becomes more and more competitive by the year, diminishing an advantage, a package of untold benefits, simply in the name of fairness? This is a problem I think about often but I've yet to come up with a solution to it. You know, beyond waiting for society to reach the point where automatization takes all of our jobs away from us.

cutmeamango · May 2, 2015

Could you give some exemples of what would this work comprise?
It's easier to convince someone to do something if they know what and how they are doing.

For exemple, would you equalize your payment down to match a coworker, or equalize his with yours?
Would you support flat payment through all ranks (from cleaning to ceo), or do you believe some functions have an attributed objective value over others?

Switch Back 9 · May 2, 2015

I HATE the term privilege. The issue isn't that white people are treated better than they should be, it's that black people and other minorities are treated WORSE than they should be.

Privilege implies over the top and unnecessary and undeserved treatment. Being able to hail a taxi or not get shot by cops isn't a "privilege", it's a basic human right. The focus should not be on how great white people have it, but why everybody else DOESN'T have it as good.

And yeah, it's definitely on white (Americans mostly) to help fix this, not minorities, but throwing around annoying buzzwords like privilege does nothing but widen the gulf.

Karsticles · May 2, 2015

Step 1: figure out what you are talking about and share it in a way that has concrete meaning. In reading your OP, you have not done this yet. What do you even want to happen?

BennyBlanco · May 2, 2015

what exactly is the question here?

somuchwater · May 2, 2015

People who are unfairly disadvantaged by a system will not give up that unfair advantage willingly. It will be difficult. It will be messy. And there will be collateral damage.

I think. I mean, this is where I'm at right now. I just don't see it happening any other way.

I really really don't think people objecting to the term privilege itself is going to help anything at all, though.

Switch Back 9 · May 2, 2015

somuchwater said:
People who are unfairly disadvantaged by a system will not give up that unfair advantage willingly. It will be difficult. It will be messy. And there will be collateral damage.

I think. I mean, this is where I'm at right now. I just don't see it happening any other way.

I really really don't think people objecting to the term privilege itself is going to help anything at all, though.

Whatever. I'm aware that there is a huge race issue in America and the onus is certainly on those in power to fix it, not those being oppressed, but this term gets thrown around way too often and is used by people who often don't fully grasp the complexities of the situation. Just saying "white privilege" is not a discussion and gets us nowhere.

Bodacious · May 2, 2015

Switch Back 9 said:
I HATE the term privilege. The issue isn't that white people are treated better than they should be, it's that black people and other minorities are treated WORSE than they should be.

Privilege implies over the top and unnecessary and undeserved treatment. Being able to hail a taxi or not get shot by cops isn't a "privilege", it's a basic human right. The focus should not be on how great white people have it, but why everybody else DOESN'T have it as good.

And yeah, it's definitely on white (Americans mostly) to help fix this, not minorities, but throwing around annoying buzzwords like privilege does nothing but widen the gulf.

Yeah why should the goal be that we all get treated like shit? Our concern should be that all people get treated appropriately. I won't say "equally" cuz some people are assholes. Assholes shouldn't be treated equally, except in the context of rights and "the State." But in a social context, an asshole's an asshole.

somuchwater · May 2, 2015

Switch Back 9 said:
Whatever. I'm aware that there is a huge race issue in America and the onus is certainly on those in power to fix it, not those being oppressed, but this term gets thrown around way too often and is used by people who often don't fully grasp the complexities of the situation. Just saying "white privilege" is not a discussion and gets us nowhere.

That's not really an argument, though. People misuse terms and oversimplify complex situations all the time. Saying "well, I don't like this term" - one that has gained a particular currency and use - is... well, a form of privilege: you are in a position to dismiss a term that other people have claimed to elucidate the complexities of a difficult situation.

Switch Back 9 · May 2, 2015

somuchwater said:
That's not really an argument, though. People misuse terms and oversimplify complex situations all the time. Saying "well, I don't like this term" - one that has gained a particular currency and use - is... well, a form of privilege: you are in a position to dismiss a term that other people have claimed to elucidate the complexities of a difficult situation.

And here we go in the cycle again. That's fine, I see what you're saying, and I'm not going to argue the point further and derail the thread by focusing on the term itself. And I'm not "dismissing" the term, I'm arguing against its use and context in a debate that once again is focused not on the people and problems it should be. Either way, I won't continue this argument because it's a silly to fight over semantics.

DiscoJer · May 2, 2015

Yeah, the best thing would be to come up with a different name for it.

You're not going to convince most white people they are "privileged", because they won't believe that. Most people have hard lives. Just because some people have it harder, doesn't mean they are "privileged".

I am reminded of a quote from Ghostbusters

Personally, I liked the university. They gave us money and facilities, we didn't have to produce anything! You've never been out of college! You don't know what it's like out there! I've *worked* in the private sector. They expect *results*

Of course, there's more than just academia. There are non-profits, media, corporate management jobs. But are you really going to convince a blue collar worker he's privileged? I live in a rural, almost entirely white part of St. Louis. I can't even count the number of people I know who have been physically wrecked by their jobs in construction or trucking or manufacturing.

somuchwater · May 2, 2015

Switch Back 9 said:
And here we go in the cycle again. That's fine, I see what you're saying, and I'm not going to argue the point further and derail the thread by focusing on the term itself. And I'm not "dismissing" the term, I'm arguing against its use and context in a debate that once again is focused not on the people and problems it should be. Either way, I won't continue this argument because it's a silly to fight over semantics.

Well, it can't be both, can it? It can't be a silly fight over semantics, and a symbol of how the debate has gone very wrong. But I'm not sure how else to read your desire to abstain from using the term than something other than a desire to make the debate conform to your own interests. What could more perfectly symbolic of white privilege (I'm making an assumption here) than a wish to have the debate occur on and through the terms of one's desire in order for it accord with your particular values or tastes? This is exactly what the thread is about - how do you ask people to give up their privilege when they are so accustomed to insisting that things be both structured and function in the terms and methods of their choosing?

I don't think this is derailing the thread - it seems quite on topic to me - but I will stop if it is.

Dusk Soldier · May 2, 2015

You can't live your life blaming your misfortune on luck. No matter how good you think you have it, there will always be someone better off.

Liu Kang Baking A Pie · May 2, 2015

Switch Back 9 said:
I HATE the term privilege. The issue isn't that white people are treated better than they should be, it's that black people and other minorities are treated WORSE than they should be.

Privilege implies over the top and unnecessary and undeserved treatment. Being able to hail a taxi or not get shot by cops isn't a "privilege", it's a basic human right. The focus should not be on how great white people have it, but why everybody else DOESN'T have it as good.

And yeah, it's definitely on white (Americans mostly) to help fix this, not minorities, but throwing around annoying buzzwords like privilege does nothing but widen the gulf.

I like your thinking here. Does someone know more about why "privilege" is the chosen word to describe this?

OctoMan · May 2, 2015

Make them post on GAF

John Kowalski · May 2, 2015

the point is not to eliminate the privilege, it's to guarantee that minorities benefit from those privileges as well

it's not about pushing down, it's about pulling up

that said my opinion is to have legal systems in place that serve to protect and ensure active positive discrimination laws for the disprivileged

spiderman123 · May 2, 2015

Not understanding what your asking?! Sorry, please clarify.

Elfforkusu · May 2, 2015

It's better to talk about eliminating systemic discrimination. Privilege is not a very constructive term, because it's an all-encompassing, ephemeral term that means different things to different people.

The Adder · May 2, 2015

Switch Back 9 said:
I HATE the term privilege. The issue isn't that white people are treated better than they should be, it's that black people and other minorities are treated WORSE than they should be.

Privilege implies over the top and unnecessary and undeserved treatment. Being able to hail a taxi or not get shot by cops isn't a "privilege", it's a basic human right. The focus should not be on how great white people have it, but why everybody else DOESN'T have it as good.

And yeah, it's definitely on white (Americans mostly) to help fix this, not minorities, but throwing around annoying buzzwords like privilege does nothing but widen the gulf.

No, privilege implies receiving benefits others do not. Being born white in the US results in the privilege of being granted in practice the rights guaranteed to you as a citizen in theory far more often than those not born white.

cutmeamango · May 2, 2015

John Kowalski said:
that said my opinion is to have legal systems in place that serve to protect and ensure active positive discrimination laws for the disprivileged

With time frames attached?

PeakPointMatrix · May 2, 2015

How about we elevate the privilege of minorities towards everyone else's instead of dragging down another. If I think you're proposing what I think you are, which I'm not sure about.

John Kowalski · May 2, 2015

cutmeamango said:
With time frames attached?

look, i don't remember the correct term right now ok

Entryhazard · May 2, 2015

Like I need to ask the police to beat me up?

I think giving "the privilege" to minorities is a better option.

tokkun · May 2, 2015

You can't "convince" away unconscious bias.

JJDinomite · May 2, 2015

Make them all get Tumblr accounts.

For real though we shouldn't drag down others to make things equal, we should instead bring others up.

Entryhazard · May 2, 2015

The Adder said:
No, privilege implies receiving benefits others do not. Being born white in the US results in the privilege of being granted in practice the rights guaranteed to you as a citizen in theory far more often than those not born white.

Privilege is about being in an advantaged minority like the nobles from which the term comes from and they are a tiny fraction of the population. If in the U.S the white is more than the 50%, it's not them being privileged rather than the others getting shit.

Deleted member 17706 · May 2, 2015

The Adder said:
No, privilege implies receiving benefits others do not. Being born white in the US results in the privilege of being granted in practice the rights guaranteed to you as a citizen in theory far more often than those not born white.

I think he gets that. He's just saying that the focus should not be on removing those benefits, but bringing up the benefits of other groups to match it instead.

liliththepale · May 2, 2015

Just because you're white doesn't mean that you're empowered. Say for instance that I and a minority figure both apply for the same job, and I happen to get it because I'm white, should I forfeit it to the other person just in the sake of fairness? I can fight for a more fair culture once I'm on the inside, and I can be fair about choices that are given to me to make, but I'm not going to turn down things that are given to me.

cutmeamango · May 2, 2015

John Kowalski said:
look, i don't remember the correct term right now ok

I was asking how you imagine those laws would work, if they'd have an expiration date.

bengraven · May 2, 2015

No way man, I need my white privilege to survive. I can do it, though, don't tell me i can't go without for a while. Just need a little hit every once and a while...just a bit. I can quit when I want, but I'm just not ready...

Dice · May 2, 2015

It's a difficult subject for me because while I recognize the white power structure, I have been perpetually locked out and fucked over my whole life. If you could somehow limit it to the whiles who are getting all the benefits without fucking over whites like me who are barely scraping by and wondering if it's the next year that they'll be homeless, I'd be more into the concept. As it is, I would rather fight classism in general

*cough*by fighting capitalism*cough*

, which I think would inherently degrade the white power structure.

GatorBait · May 2, 2015

Switch Back 9 said:
I HATE the term privilege. The issue isn't that white people are treated better than they should be, it's that black people and other minorities are treated WORSE than they should be.

Privilege implies over the top and unnecessary and undeserved treatment. Being able to hail a taxi or not get shot by cops isn't a "privilege", it's a basic human right. The focus should not be on how great white people have it, but why everybody else DOESN'T have it as good.

And yeah, it's definitely on white (Americans mostly) to help fix this, not minorities, but throwing around annoying buzzwords like privilege does nothing but widen the gulf.

I agree with you 100%, and in race/privilege conversations I've seen play out in real life, all the term "X-privilege" does is make people defensive and shifts the argument. Being treated equally as a person shouldn't be a privilege, it should be an immutable human right. Minorities are being treated in a substandard manner and we need to start understanding that they are being denied basic human rights as a result.

I think how the message is framed is very important, and if presented the right way, perhaps the greater public will rally around it like they have gay marriage in recent years (another example of a marginalized group being denied equal rights). Even the phrasing of the thread title is questionable; what privilege do white people have that needs to be diminished instead of society actually treating all people equal regardless of the color of their skin?

John Kowalski · May 2, 2015

cutmeamango said:
I was asking how you imagine those laws would work, if they'd have an expiration date.

They wouldn't. In my perfectly fallible opinion i think hoping social privilege hierarchies to end is just the most unpragmatic thing ever.

Hsieh · May 2, 2015

Switch Back 9 said:
I HATE the term privilege. The issue isn't that white people are treated better than they should be, it's that black people and other minorities are treated WORSE than they should be.

Privilege implies over the top and unnecessary and undeserved treatment. Being able to hail a taxi or not get shot by cops isn't a "privilege", it's a basic human right. The focus should not be on how great white people have it, but why everybody else DOESN'T have it as good.

And yeah, it's definitely on white (Americans mostly) to help fix this, not minorities, but throwing around annoying buzzwords like privilege does nothing but widen the gulf.

If not being shot by police is considered to be "white privilege", then when you say you want to eliminate "white privilege", what you're really saying is that you want the police to shoot more white people.

Minion101 · May 2, 2015

Would communism fix it?

Rest · May 2, 2015

Well, using the word diminish is not the right place to start. We should work to lift everyone else up to the level of the straight white male, not try to pull anyone down.

cutmeamango · May 2, 2015

Minion101 said:
Would communism fix it?

Anything with authorities and humans and human authorities is bound to fail.
We need aliens to cattle us.

Dice · May 2, 2015

Minion101 said:
Would communism fix it?

Communism is a rather vague term with all the forms that have been merely discussed and actually manifested. It could easily take form simply as an economic change while still allowing racist oppression. However, the kind of overhauls required to establish communism are so massive that protections against racism could also be written into law and integrated into processes at such a time if it ever did come about.

Advent1s · May 2, 2015

Why should I?

Its not up to me to relinquish that which i do not own, it is however up to the people whom are troubled to fight for it.

entremet · May 2, 2015

tokkun said:
You can't "convince" away unconscious bias.

Basically. It's why it's so difficult to tackle.

Jotamide · May 2, 2015

Switch Back 9 said:
I HATE the term privilege. The issue isn't that white people are treated better than they should be, it's that black people and other minorities are treated WORSE than they should be.

Privilege implies over the top and unnecessary and undeserved treatment. Being able to hail a taxi or not get shot by cops isn't a "privilege", it's a basic human right. The focus should not be on how great white people have it, but why everybody else DOESN'T have it as good.

And yeah, it's definitely on white (Americans mostly) to help fix this, not minorities, but throwing around annoying buzzwords like privilege does nothing but widen the gulf.

Very well put. I immediately associate the term and with tumblr "feminists" who day and night strive for dominance over the opposite sex over true equality.

JCizzle · May 2, 2015

I always interpreted white privilege as a couple hundred year head start on acquiring things like family wealth, education, and property. The GI Bill post WWII, for example, was a pretty huge shift in American culture that blacks were more or less not allowed to benefit from.

Shao Kahn on the Lawn · May 2, 2015

It's a matter of perspective, really. There is enough prosperity to go around: the problem is that the distribution of this wealth has been concentrated at the top percentile of our country for entirely too long and basic human rights that we should all enjoy have been denied to large groups for even longer.

It's no more discouraging for me to advocate on behalf of equal treatment of minorities than it is for me to advocate for equal treatment of women and members of the LGBT community. It isn't a zero sum game where I can only win from your loss: rather than the expectation that we adjust white peoples' lives downward, the expectation needs to be that minorities of all types be brought upward to have parity in treatment for all.

That's why I always bristle at the envy towards my field with regard to pay. My field is one of the few fields where people with reasonable amounts of education can be fairly compensated for their work. Rather than asking why other industries aren't compensated as well, many people simply ask why people in STEM are compensated so much.

gutter_trash · May 2, 2015

The Adder said:
No, privilege implies receiving benefits others do not. Being born white in the US results in the privilege of being granted in practice the rights guaranteed to you as a citizen in theory far more often than those not born white.

tell that to the trailer parkers

Jacksinthe · May 2, 2015

Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
I like your thinking here. Does someone know more about why "privilege" is the chosen word to describe this?

Privilege is the wrong word. It implies something you have by default. "White Privilege", the real term being bias, is given to people, it is not enabled as a default.

People cannot grasp the concept that in order for the perceived "privilege" to take place, one party must bestow advantages to another. The 2nd party is not enabled to that advantage by default, it is given by the 1st party.

The problem, as shown by the post you quoted, is that its not about whites getting special treatment, its just that they are treated as any human should be treated while minorities are marginalized.

Nobody is privileged over a genetic accident. We do, however, enable our own biases in favor of others based on that genetic accident. You can call that privilege, to an extent, but it is a received bias on an individual level - widespread as fuck. It can come and go based on any one single interaction and the individuals involved.

It is despicable that society still hasn't gotten past shit like race or any other differences. FFS we have people living in orbit around the earth and we still have racism and bias on a system level. Its bonkers to think how far we've progressed as intelligent beings but couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from 2 feet away with societal evolution and fucking humanity.

Dice · May 2, 2015

JCizzle said:
I always interpreted white privilege as a couple hundred year head start on acquiring things like family wealth, education, and property.

And economic exploitation, establishment of cultural propaganda, legislative power locking, gentrification, justice system abuse, war crimes, global market imperialism, theft and other corruption.

Just a head start, you see.

Marauder Shields · May 2, 2015

Should call it wealth privilege. Go tell poor white people about their supposed privilege.

JJDinomite · May 2, 2015

JCizzle said:
I always interpreted white privilege as a couple hundred year head start on acquiring things like family wealth, education, and property. The GI Bill post WWII, for example, was a pretty huge shift in American culture that blacks were more or less not allowed to benefit from.

What about us poor white people

TacticalFox88 · May 2, 2015

Marauder Shields said:
Should call it wealth privilege. Go tell poor white people about their supposed privilege.

I'd rather be poor and white than poor and black.

Anyone who says otherwise is batshit fucking crazy.

CrocMother · May 2, 2015

One question we have to answer as a society is this: Are we born with an innate bias against those different than us?

If that is the case, how do we account for it when trying to live up to this ideal of a "fair" and "equal" society? It's like trying to change the structure of our hardware with a software update.

I honestly believe that there is no new idea, no new human strategy or way of thinking that is going to change that bias. It is going to take new hardware which will develop from future biotechnology. Racism is going to be an issue as long as Race exists.

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