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How should Japanese developers/publishers handle transitioning to Steam releases?

Durante

Member
I think at this point, almost no one will disagree that many Japanese developers and publishers are finally realizing the value of releasing their games on Steam. However, one question that arises is how to go about doing so, especially if you have a large library of formerly console-only games.

We've seen a few options so far:

1) Port everything starting from some early point, in smaller intervals than the original in order to eventually catch up.


This was (and is being) implemented by Idea Factory International and Arc System Works, and it looks like Nippon Ichi might also try this given the DIsagea 1 announcement and Phantom Brave leak.
The advantage of this approach is that you can gradually introduce players to your franchises, and that you can sell a lot of different games. However, I think there are some real risks here: for one, since you realistically need to sell those earlier titles at a discount, it might devalue your property which might affect your future day-and-date releases. Secondly, some of these games are huge, and by releasing them at a far faster pace than originally the case you might create an over-saturation effect.

2) Port your back catalogue, but only selectively/discriminatingly.

This is often what happens when a separate company acquires PC distribution rights (e.g. Ghostlight) but Sega seems to do it as well. Same goes for Square Enix really.
It prevents the oversaturation effect to some extent, but still might have a devaluation effect, and obviously as a gamer its annoying to have series available only partially.

3) Port your latest games day-and-date.

Namco-Bandai went this way with Tales, and also some Naruto games and quite a few others really. Another example is MGS5. You basically forget about the past and just forge straight ahead. The advantage here is that your releases benefit from all the hype you generate for new entries in a series, and you can certainly achieve far more full-price sales this way than with any other (as evidenced by e.g. Tales of Zestiria and MGS). The disadvantages from a publisher perspective are that you don't really benefit from your back catalog, and from a gamer and preservation perspective there's obviously something missing.


Between all these options, I personally think the best and most sustainable way to go is 3) - in order to get people used to thinking about your franchise in full-price terms and introduce new games with a single marketing push - combined with some of 2) to fill out the back catalog over a longer time period. I'm a bit concerned with all the publishers which are seemingly going for 1) and the medium-term viability of that. Steam gamers have deep wallets and capacities for building up a backlog, but not unlimited ones.
 
I would say 3 is right and while maybe not totally on topic, I think they should announce the games months before and not just days like GGXrd or TitS2 lately.
I think 1 is not really that good, because lets say I buy the new BlazBlue in Spring 2016, somehow I know the consoles will get the new version already at that time or just shortly after.

I would also say they should release their whole library if its feasible. I dont quite understand why Bandai-Namco cherrypicks their games. Like why is Saint Seiya on Steam, while more popular franchises like SAO or Jojo are not on Steam yet. So I would like a mix between Nr. 1 and 2 ;)
 
I don't know, this seems pretty simple. Bring your newer games as well as popular titles from your back catalogue in between releases.
 
I only really follow niche games and/or ports of games that are ages old but there seems to be a conspicuous pattern of smaller JP devs/publishers releasing their games with no warning and no fanfare, so yeah, my first recommendation would be to try just a little harder than "not at all" to promote yo shit.
 
Yeah, I've been thinking about this as well.
People who have been following the franchise since PS-PS2 era would prefer the newest title, but they also have to tend to potential new fans from the huge PC market. I'd say they should follow #1 option, just don't overprice them.
 
I think they should put in minimum effort or farm it out like western devs. Western devs seem to do ok.

Japanese non-f2p, non-first party devs work on a razor thin margins and have trouble attracting skilled staff; so I don't know where this extra staff and money is going to come from for day-and-date pc releases.
 
I think it really depends on the series. If it's a story-heavy series where each game expects you to have played the previous one, you would have a lot more reason to port and release the games in order.

However, I suspect that for series with standalone releases, you would be ideally be starting with the current game and then filling in the gaps in releases with backports as appropriate, with the ideal of having every game in your back catalog ported at some point (so that would be 3 to 2 to 1, in Durante's list). You're going to run into fatigue at some point -- you may as well hit it with your less popular games.

I only really follow niche games and/or ports of games that are ages old but there seems to be a conspicuous pattern of smaller JP devs/publishers releasing their games with no warning and no fanfare, so yeah, my first recommendation would be to try just a little harder than "not at all" to promote yo shit.
That would imply having a budget, and I suspect that a number of these Steam releases are happening due to various levels of desperation. I'm not sure what else they could do outside of luckboxing some big YouTube channels covering the releases.
 
Japanese non-f2p, non-first party devs work on a razor thin margins and have trouble attracting skilled staff; so I don't know where this extra staff and money is going to come from for day-and-date pc releases.
From the tens of thousands (at an extremely conservative estimate) of extra day one sales (ignoring all the long tail sales for a moment). That can pay for a PC port 5 times over. Doesn't seem to be an issue for e.g. Namco Bandai.

However, I suspect that for series with standalone releases, you would be ideally be starting with the current game and then filling in the gaps in releases with backports as appropriate, with the ideal of having every game in your back catalog ported at some point (so that would be 3 to 2 to 1, in Durante's list). You're going to run into fatigue at some point -- you may as well hit it with your less popular games.
That's a good point.
 
I believe 1 and 3 are the way to go.

1 has been working for Idea Factory and Arc Sys. Sure, releasing each game with a heavy discount or a low set price can damage your IP but I think the majority of Steam users aren't that unaware to know these games are old so for a convincing price to test the waters, I think it's a good way.

3 also works because not everyone wants to play old games from a series they are curious about. Bandai Namco knows and I believe ArcSys and XSEED are aware of that as well. Gotta strike while the iron is hot. If not, you'll be going back to 1 and devaluing your games just so your audience can catch up where they most likely might not care about catching up and just want to play the latest.

Companies like Sega are in a unique position with 2 because their IPs are more critically praised by the mainstream than the rest so you have new folks that really want to try them and old gamers wanting to play the definitive versions of their favorite games.
 
That would imply having a budget, and I suspect that a number of these Steam releases are happening due to various levels of desperation.

I think this is unfortunately true. Hopefully the steam bucks can keep them going for a while longer.

I'm not sure how they can attract new audiences though. Does anyone know why people liked Japanese games in the 90s and how they attracted western fans then?
 
Ideally #3, for me at least. I usually don't bother getting the Steam ports, even though I have a good gaming rig because I'd prefer not to wait 6+ months after the console/Vita versions have been out. If I'm interested in a game, I almost always buy it at launch, so it has to come out at the same time on Steam for me to be interested.
 
From the tens of thousands (at an extremely conservative estimate) of extra day one sales (ignoring all the long tail sales for a moment). That can pay for a PC port 5 times over. Doesn't seem to be an issue for e.g. Namco Bandai.

That's a good point.

afaik bamco only does that with the souls games, and they have to give From money to hire westerners to help out. Getting non-Japanese people into japan to work is hard and very expensive...unless they are blond and want to work in Kabukicho, lol.
 
They should not announce any ports and instead let the community find out about them via Taiwan rating board leaks and Steam pop-ups ads.
 
Latest and then backwards, with the exception of sequential stories - in which case, start from the beginning. For example, Tales are not connected so start with the latest Tales and then port the previous entries.

I can see SEGA building a Yakuza audience by porting 0 then doing Kiwami (which is a remake of the first game) then porting 2, 3, 4, 5 and then 6 to give PC players a nice linear progression.
 
I think the combination of 3 and 2 would be good. The thing about introducing older title is not just about expanding the catalogue, but it gives more price range option for Steam user that about to buy a game from the series. Not to mention there are a lot of gamer from the older generation era that probably now have PC as their main gaming platform. These old title however, needs to be priced right. The thing with going for option 3) exclusively is not just there are these feeling of something missing, but also makes the publisher/developer only releasing expensive game.

I only really follow niche games and/or ports of games that are ages old but there seems to be a conspicuous pattern of smaller JP devs/publishers releasing their games with no warning and no fanfare, so yeah, my first recommendation would be to try just a little harder than "not at all" to promote yo shit.

Steam releases are practically capable of infinite legs as long as the games have constant discount and good word of mouth, which most niche games rely on for sales. In retail situation, niche games can't compete with bigger releases since their slot will be taken. Meanwhile on Steam, they will be always there. People who have slight interest might someday buy it on a sale. Neptunia series, despite most of the time being dubbed as "bad game" slowly extend its leg overtime. Its first game sales now according to Steamspy is 193k.

For niche games, they don't need a too much marketing. It is much better to spend those money to make an excellent port.

I think this is unfortunately true. Hopefully the steam bucks can keep them going for a while longer.
These niche Japanese games still get most of their revenue from Japan due to higher retail price. Though it is their move to Steam indeed an anticipation of ever shrinking domestic market. If the Asia PC market continues to grow (people moving from piracy to Steam), and then combiner with RotW, then perhaps it can take 50% share of their income, or hopefully more.
I'm not sure how they can attract new audiences though. Does anyone know why people liked Japanese games in the 90s and how they attracted western fans then?

Back then Japanese games are overwhelming both in quantity and quality. The HD transition bite them really hard both in that front, especially with many major publishers seems to suffer identity crisis during the 2010's era.
 
Go with 3 and work your way back. You need a big splash with the first title which you can get if you play your cards right, and this will also be full priced and high margin. Then you work your way backwards. I feel like going from the start to the end of a series in regular intervals is just going to wear the audience out due to the number of people who don't even finish games and due to fatigue (see Trails and the Neptunia decline). Might as well start with the newest most exciting title at full price instead of going for progressively newer more expensive ones.
 
Honestly? It probably differs from publisher to publisher.

I think people would kill for a lovingly ported Tales of Phantasia or FF6 SNES to Steam. Something like a bunch of random NAMCO light gun games though, no one's going to care.
 
Between all these options, I personally think the best and most sustainable way to go is 3) - in order to get people used to thinking about your franchise in full-price terms and introduce new games with a single marketing push - combined with some of 2) to fill out the back catalog over a longer time period.

This seems like the best compromise. New releases that build a PC fanbase for a series, and later release the better older games that fans will buy and enjoy.

I want Falcom to port all of their Kiseki games to PC, but that's not going to happen.
 
I would just hire Durante and let him churn out stellar ports at his leisure. He does a better work of it then all of Japan combined.
 
Option 3 sounds a bit better than the others. For a limited time maybe also better to put older games on GoG for better exposure.
 
Option 1 is how I prefer the games to be released, by and large. But the way Square Enix has handled bringing Final Fantasy to Steam has been great, and I have full confidence in their PC support going forward. The franchise only came to Steam fairly recently, and now, with FFVI and LR: FFXIII releasing soon, has nearly caught up to where the mainline series currently stands across all platforms. (Not to mention Type-0 HD, which is a promising sign of things to come for future releases, as well.) Option 3 seems like it would work well for most publishers of annualized and standalone titles, but as someone who likes to start from the beginning of most series, I'm not quite as fond of it, though can understand why you (or anyone else) would be. The fact that a Steam release of the Metal Gear Solid Legacy Collection is nowhere in sight is a bit perplexing, to me. After the success of Metal Gear Rising and Ground Zeroes, I expected a Legacy Collection release prior to the arrival of The Phantom Pain. I guess I don't have a problem with Option 3 so much as I do the uncertainty of what it means for legacy title support. It's never a sure thing, to be fair, but personally, I always have more appreciation for the companies who go out of their way to represent their legacy on a platform than those who don't. Resident Evil was, at one point, very much in-line with Option 3, and while Capcom has yet to release RE2, RE3, and Code: Veronica, I have much more faith in them releasing those games (making the series closer and closer to Option 2, which one could make the argument that it already is) - given that they have released newer titles, as well as gone back to patch up their older ones (such as by adding in RE5's DLC or by releasing a proper version of RE4) - than I do in a company like Konami, who seems to only be interested in releasing the here and now.
 
I would say 1. PC games are forever. People will be buying that game (albeit in small numbers) for a decade.

OTOH, for consoles, initial sales are king.
 
It has to be starting with three, then gradually introduce the rest of titles.

PC gamers are usually the most aware/informed and a bad PC port or a company just throwing their old leftovers leaves a terrible impression.
 
Companies like Sega are in a unique position with 2 because their IPs are more critically praised by the mainstream than the rest so you have new folks that really want to try them and old gamers wanting to play the definitive versions of their favorite games.

And yet a HUGE amount of sega's library is not on Steam in Japan.
All of my games like SAAASRT, Niights, Dreamcast collection, The Cave, Typing of the dead etc.... all had to be VPN'd to get them to work.
Christ anything is more preferable to the shambles it is now!
Still can't buy OG Dark Souls! Really pathetic.
Western companies don't fare much better!
 
I'd say 3 first because I as a gamer want to play the latest and greatest at the time it's released so I'm more likely to pay full price when the game is still new. I assume I'm not the only one, and that would probably be the most sound financial move for the publisher because they'll get the most full price sales that way.

But I also would like to see ports of older games afterwards, so definitely 2 as well.

Case in point - MGS. I loved playing MGSV, I was supper happy we got it on PC and at the same date as consoles. But I would also pay for a port of any of the older MGS games (I'd buy MGS3 for the third time if it came out on PC).
 
Start with 3 and if people want more go to 2 (or 1 if it's not too many titles). Let's look at an example:

1.) SEGA should release Yakuza 0 simultaneously on PS3/PS4/PC in the west. (Option 3, generate hype, people jump in at a great time (prequel to 1-5)).

2.) If the game sells a lot of copies (a lot meaning 50 000 - 100 000, it's Yakuza after all) they can port Yakuza 3-5 (Option 2). If Yakuza 0 sells like shit ... don't port 3-5. Abandon PC. Burn everything. Don't bring anymore games to the west.

I know a lot of people love 1 and 2 but I doubt that those games will attract many people because they're pretty old and look dated (Yakuza 3 includes recaps of 1+2, highlight something like that on the store page) - Yakuza 1 is getting a remake so they can release that (following Option 3).

I think this is a good option looking at risks etc.
 
I'd be happy with a mix between 1 and 3.
It's cool to have Zestiria on Steam, with Symphonia coming out later, but it'd be cooler to get the whole back catalogue as well.
 
Not sure how many games are on Steam in total in the US but when I searched on steam now this is the amount that showed up:

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Would someone run a check for me please, as I am curious to know!
 
Not sure how many games are on Steam in total in the US but when I searched on steam now this is the amount that showed up:

TlhctHK.png


Would someone run a check for me please, as I am curious to know!

There are somewhere around 7000 (your list isn't filtered to show only games). The results page says 7123, but some of those "games" are actually DLC whose subs include the base game (e.g. http://store.steampowered.com/app/258643/).

Edit: 7123 is the Steam AU count. It seems filtering the list to show games results in your IP overriding the country chosen via ?cc=xx.
 
x7MG1hk.png


Lol silly me. That's a lot better than I thought!
Still a lot missing though!
Check out Namco's paltry offerings (read that as scraps):
Z28gaqK.png


Thats it!
Yes I know I still don't have DSII yet! :(
 
I'd like to note that this is not supposed to be one of these silly "too many games on Steam" threads. As a gamer and a consumer, I find the concept of "too many games" ridiculous.

This is more about looking at the release order from the publisher perspective and figuring out the best way to go.
 
I think the best way is 3 with an old title as a preorder bonus. Then release older titles to fill the gap between releases.

Also... MARKET YOUR DAMN GAME. Stealth releases are shitty, wtf is wrong with ArcSys to release Xrd in 2 days ? Wtf was wrong with Square Enix to stealth release DQH 1 week after being announced ???
 
I think it massively depends on the scale of the publisher. Someone like Konami could obviously go for an older game like Castlevania Lords of Shadow as a tester due to being known to a lot of folks so then we eventually get to the point where MGS5 launches only a week behind the console versions (MGO aside but does come with more graphics options etc.). You could argue that for a small to medium sized publisher might be best bringing something from their back catalog over if they have a new entry in that series in the works to gauge intrest for bringing that to the platform either at the same time or slightly after the respective console versions. I think ultimately you need engagement and communication with the community and not just dump your game on Steam and hope it sells. Look at what Ghostlight and Idea Factory do, they have proper closed betas to make sure their games are up to snuff and feature considerations people expect on PC and then promote them via various channels not just on Steam so people know their game is coming, out or has a promotional offer.
 
I'd like to note that this is not supposed to be one of these silly "too many games on Steam" threads. As a gamer and a consumer, I find the concept of "too many games" ridiculous.

This is more about looking at the release order from the publisher perspective and figuring out the best way to go.

Pardon my "silliness" Not trying to derail the thread.

I find number one would be the best option, and would love to see it happen, but my post was trying to illustrate, Japanese devs here don't even have confidence in Steam in their own country let alone make a big investment in it worldwide!
 
starting with recent releases works because of the baseline technology being x86 and therefore fairly portable (at least with limited cost).

then going back, it would need to be on a case by case basis. Developers that had PS2/PS3 only titles might find it too expensive to port to PC; developers that had Xbox 360 games would be in a better position for lower cost ports.

If you do choose to port a title in a series, then also seriously consider committing at the outset to bring across the entire series if feasible, to reassure fans and encourage those considering dipping in for the first time.
 
Pardon my "silliness" Not trying to derail the thread.

I find number one would be the best option, and would love to see it happen, but my post was trying to illustrate, Japanese devs here don't even have confidence in Steam in their own country let alone make a big investment in it worldwide!

Isn't that more because Steam hasn't been adopted mass market in Japan like it has in other countries? Steam is massive in the west so it makes a lot more sense to put the games on Steam in the west than it does in Japan. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Ideally I'd choose a mix between 1 and 3. Little waiting for new releases while at the same time the back catalogue gets ported in order. For some companies this really wouldn't be practical though so a mix between 2 and 3 is probably the best solution. Most long running series end up having entries that no one wants and thus aren't worth the effort to port. To take an example company Sega. Much as I want them to port most of their history they have a ridiculously large back catalogue that would take forever to port even if you were just lazily shoving most of them in emulators. Being selective is the only logical solution, I just wish they could be quicker about it rather then the rate of one port a year.

One frustration I have with Japanese companies is that the big ones like Sega, Capcom, Konami that have a longer history then most of porting to PC tend leave those old ports out in the cold. As an example there are existing ports of Resident Evil 1-3 and Dino Crisis. These games are probably not worth full re-porting efforts now but the fact is PC versions exist and if they were made by a western company chances are they'd have likely been at least patched up to be playable and sold at a budget price on GOG by now. Instead they seem lost forever.
 
Steam releases are practically capable of infinite legs as long as the games have constant discount and good word of mouth, which most niche games rely on for sales. In retail situation, niche games can't compete with bigger releases since their slot will be taken. Meanwhile on Steam, they will be always there. People who have slight interest might someday buy it on a sale. Neptunia series, despite most of the time being dubbed as "bad game" slowly extend its leg overtime. Its first game sales now according to Steamspy is 193k.

For niche games, they don't need a too much marketing. It is much better to spend those money to make an excellent port.

Word of mouth is essential, yes, but that's not to say it's something that just happens totally independently of any actions a publisher might take; there are very simple ways to focus or encourage engagement around a game that cost nothing but the time it takes to talk to (or just at) people, any of which would be better than doing absolutely nothing.


That would imply having a budget, and I suspect that a number of these Steam releases are happening due to various levels of desperation. I'm not sure what else they could do outside of luckboxing some big YouTube channels covering the releases.

Again, I've seen a lot of devs do literally nothing to promote their games--forget paid advertising, many of them don't have websites or identifiable social network presence and don't even attempt to tell people their games are available, they just show up one day (or get outed by a ratings board or whatever, like that one dude said).
 
I don't think the date is really a matter of importance here, IMO Japanese devs just need to fix some issues with their games.

1 - Bad Coding: There are lots of tutorials online out there and many children know how to code games better than many japanese devs. I still find unbelievable why so many Japanese devs don't know how to code games, and still tie game logic with framerate or don't make resolution scalable. This is something fundamental for PC Gamers.

2 - Bad Ports: I cry everytime Koei Tecmo ports a Vita or PS3 version instead of the PS4 one. This is something Bandai Namco should look into.

3 - Lack of Content: Dead or Alive 5, for example, not only is technically a port of the PS3 version, it also lacks the content from next-gen version.

4 - Lack of Graphic Options: I bought FFXIII-2 yesterday and the incredibly amount of graphic options made me laugh. At least S-E seems to have been looking into it for Lightning Returns, but it also caused it a huge delay.

5 - Promote your fucking games: If PC version is the better version of the game, just bring it to Events and expose its advantages instead of trying to hide it to the world. Also, if you have a PC version of a game, date it with time and not 2 days before release.

6 - Don't ignore PC gamers: If you have a PC version in mind or in development just say it. You don't have to put a release date but please, don't say it is exclusive to PS4 when it clearly isn't and then play the "PC Gamers, we have listen to you, thank us because we are releasing our game on Steam".

I think fixing these issues will improve drastically Japanese games sales on Steam.
 
Pardon my "silliness" Not trying to derail the thread.

He's referring to people who believe Valve is allowing too many games on to Steam and should once again assume the role of gatekeeper. The problem with this is that it assumes Valve's decisions will please everybody -- it passing on titles deemed noteworthy by the community is precisely what lead to Greenlight, which isn't a perfect system but is an improvement.
 
Ideally it'd be a mix of 2 and 3, let gamers in on nostalgia and the whole 'I heard it was good back then but never got around to trying it' deal. While at the same time letting publishers focus on the hype of a new game.

1 would be nice but I don't think it's feasible for a lot of japanese companies and if anything could drive them out.
 
I don't think the date is really a matter of importance here
I disagree. E.g. IFI do pretty much everything you asked for, and nonetheless their games have seen some drop-off in sales. I really think dates and ordering are an important factor to consider when you have the opportunity to port the entire library of a generation or two of huge games to a new platform in a relatively short period of time.

He's referring to people who believe Valve is allowing too many games on to Steam and should once again assume the role of gatekeeper. The problem with this is that it assumes Valve's decisions will please everybody -- it passing on titles deemed noteworthy by the community is precisely what lead to Greenlight, which isn't a perfect system but is an improvement.
It's a massive improvement.
 
I disagree. E.g. IFI do pretty much everything you asked for, and nonetheless their games have seen some drop-off in sales. I really think dates and ordering are an important factor to consider when you have the opportunity to port the entire library of a generation or two of huge games to a new platform in a relatively short period of time.

It's a massive improvement.

I find IFI games very niche. How sales do compare with console ones in the west?
 
I don't think the date is really a matter of importance here, IMO Japanese devs just need to fix some issues with their games.

6 - Don't ignore PC gamers: If you have a PC version in mind or in development just say it. You don't have to put a release date but please, don't say it is exclusive to PS4 when it clearly isn't and then play the "PC Gamers, we have listen to you, thank us because we are releasing our game on Steam".

I think fixing these issues will improve drastically Japanese games sales on Steam.
I disagree. E.g. IFI do pretty much everything you asked for, and nonetheless their games have seen some drop-off in sales. I really think dates and ordering are an important factor to consider when you have the opportunity to port the entire library of a generation or two of huge games to a new platform in a relatively short period of time.
It seems that trying to play both markets too quickly is causing issues. The game are localized for PS first so fans and others get it there first. This is followed a few months later by "Hey we're porting it to PC for cheaper" which makes people either go "Well gee I should have waited a bit longer and gotten the PC version" or "Hey how come they get it for cheaper so soon?". So now you've got upset console customers thinking they might as well wait for the PC ports that will inevitably happen after half a year.
The nature of sales and weird decisions don't help either. There's the very odd case of something like Amnesia(the VN) coming out in August on Vita and PC at $30 (but PC gets 50% off), selling about 7K, but then just last week it was priced at $3 on PC and sold just as much.

That's where release dates come in and they also affect the following part.

On the other hand on PC you're getting the port for a good price and quality and all that, but then another port is announced, and another, and now people are going "Didn't they just release one of those a bit back? I still haven't played the latest title, might as well wait till it's on a better sale", which causes them to hold off buying the next game since they're coming out quickly, which in turn is going to cause dwindling sales.

So from where I see it, option 1 seems like it'll upset console users and confuse/saturate the PC market. It doesn't seem like it's viable in the long run and moving to option 3 ASAP after you finish porting your catalog seems like it should be a better choice to manage both markets.

Sorry for the messy English, I have a hard time putting this into words.
I find IFI games very niche. How sales do compare with console ones in the west?
We have no clue about their console sales back in the NISA days. The best statement used to be "Almost as much as Japan" followed by "It sells better in the West" after a couple years. Consoles sales in Japan float between 20K to 40K.
Thing is IFI has yet to port a console title, it's all Vita games, and all at lower price points. We don't know how those perform here (could ask someone in the NPD threads I guess) but it's certainly not too much. So there's no real comparison between those sales and the 193K sales sold at $30/15/9/6 price points on Steam.
But they are definitely very niche.
 
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