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Is it the moral responsibility of a player to ensure their opponents have fun?

TCKaos

Member
So there's been a bit of a hubbabaloo over some hilariously stupid shit going down in Halo 5's newest map for their flagship gametype Warzone.

So back in January 343 Industries released the Infinity's Armory update for Halo 5, including a new-ish map for use in the game's Warzone Assault gametype, Urban.

h5-guardians-warzone-urban-04-9cdab50b28034db49c848d58f4396549.jpg

It was a reworking of the previous update's Battle of Noctus map made to function with a slight variation of the Warzone gametype that effectively acts as Rush to the standard mode's Conquest. The attacking team rushes a base full of defenders and kills them in the hopes of clearing out the base long enough to capture it, triggering the capture of the next base.

The only issue with Urban is that the attackers are definitively, unequivocally fucked because of how horrible their spawns are. How horrible, you might ask? Horrible enough that defenders were able to toss grenades from the back of the Mongoose ATV (which grants infinite grenades for some reason) into all possible spawns, spawn-killing the attackers for full minutes at a time.


So that's pretty bad. It turns out, it's way worse than that. Waaaay worse. Halo 5's spawn system refuses to spawn a player in the event that an enemy is close to the spawn. If an enemy is looking over an area where you could spawn, the game will choose to spawn you somewhere else. In modes like Big Team Battle this can lead to teams switching bases entirely as what was originally your base gets overrun by enemies.

On Urban, it simply means that no one respawns. Ever.

The enemy team can position themselves in such a way that prevents the opposing team from respawning.

Here's a handy infographic someone on /r/Halo made that uses Donkey to explain:


If you place a player in the areas that have a bright Donkey, then 99% of the time the opposite team will actually be unable to spawn. The other three dimly lit Donkeys are secondary placements that aren't necessary but do prevent the other 1% of situations where the enemy could spawn. The light green areas are the spawns for the enemy team.

In response to this, Waypoint (the official Halo forum) and /r/Halo have exploded, screaming for the people who are capable of doing this to be banned for cheating. Clans that have managed to obtain special armor through "Farming" kills are being told that they should be banned, or their unlocks removed, to be made "examples" of. I understand that it's a bunch of stupid hyperbolic shit being screeched by eight and nine year olds. The offending map has been wholly removed from matchmaking to be reworked and reimplemented at a later date, hopefully corrected.

Now, personally, I view this sort of destructive play as completely okay. Is it kind of a dick move? Sure, but there are no external exploits being abused. It's the fastest avenue to victory. Leveraging of the map's embarrassingly bad flaws rather than the toxic exploitation of a system. To me it's the difference between manipulating the game using external means (trainers in multiplayers games, stand-bying, modding consoles, ect) versus using the most broken but completely "legal" means of achieving victory, even if you're being a cheesing asshole about it (being that fucker that used Metaknight in Brawl, FEAR in Pokemon, ect).

It's even further muddied that this is the theoretical final form of a strategy that already exists in Halo that involves spawn manipulation. It's a tactic that dates back to Halo 1, but here's a really good example of it in Halo: Reach. The player is able to accurately predict the enemy's spawn by manipulating his own positioning relative to the point of death of the enemy.

And so, I said all that to ask this: Is it the responsibility of a player to ensure that everyone else in the game is having fun, even if that includes your direct opponents? Is it my responsibility as a player to not use strategies like this one in order to achieve victory in the most efficient means possible?

If it is my responsibility to ensure that my opponents have fun, to what extent am I responsible? Should I throw games, or try less than my hardest so that someone who is clearly worse than me or is susceptible to a particular strategy is able to have fun?

If so, why?
 

Jintor

Member
I don't believe it to be their responsibility on a per-match basis.

However, players are still responsible for the general state of the overall game. With that knowledge, if you know that the exploit or tactic you are using is detrimental to encouraging other people to play, then it's on your own head when your community self-destructs.

That said... this sounds like 343's fault more than anything.
 

Sai-kun

Banned
It depends on what the issues are with the maps that the players are playing.

In this case, it's 343's fault. Fuck a bad spawn.

It's the player's job to not abuse super jumps in Halo 2, not their job to let players spawn.

Do you care if your gf enjoys anal...no you just put it in.

okay...gaming side gaf posters are weird as fuck
 
Absolutely not.

This is what makes games like street fighter so hard to make casual. Each player wants to win. If one player has more knowledge or experience, the other may not stand a chance until they increase their knowledge or experience.

Many players either won't or can't do that so they blame the game.
 
I'd like to hear from Sideshow Mel.


Seriously though, it's the developers responsibility to not create such "unfun" content. It's up to them to fix it.
 
It depends on what the issues are with the maps that the players are playing.

In this case, it's 343's fault. Fuck a bad spawn.

It's the player's job to not abuse super jumps in Halo 2, not their job to let players spawn.



okay...gaming side gaf posters are weird as fuck
And the OT side posters aren't?
 

Kilau

Gold Member
As long as you aren't griefing or using some sort of map geometry clipping glitch there is nothing wrong with using the broken game/map design to your advantage.

If I got stuck in this, I would be irritated with 343, not the other players.
 

duckroll

Member
There is no "moral responsibility" to ensure anyone has fun. That's the wrong way to look at it. The real question is, what allows you to get the most out of what you're doing? If you're only playing to get score and you don't care about the opponents, if the map sucks and you're getting what you want, whatever. If the other players aren't having fun, they can leave and if no one plays the map anymore the developer will know something is up. On the other hand, if you're playing because you want to have some challenge from human opponents and you enjoy the back and forth, then if there are things you can do to even stuff up on a shitty map to make it more fun for everyone, why not? It's not your responsibility but if you get something out of it, it's win-win.
 

jroc74

Phone reception is more important to me than human rights
okay...gaming side gaf posters are weird as fuck

Its time like this that remind me Gaming and Off Topic ...the line gets blurred..




I just wanted something to comment on to be in this thread...the responses to that post will make for great reading...
 
Something like this is on the designers. If it's in the game and it's not a horribly broken exploit (though even that one is case-by-case) it's fair game.
 
It's not the players' fault if a game is kusoge. It's the devs' responsibility to do what they have to do to make sure the game isn't kusoge.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
Well, we do have a soft (in terms of the consequences and enforcement of it) moral code setup around this kinda stuff... we call it sportsmanship. In actual physical games (or perhaps more officiated games such as tournaments), the soft moral code is more enforceable (i.e. people will get angry at you, and you run the risk of getting your ass kicked or otherwise penalized).

So yes, it's morally responsible to play in a sporting manner to ensure that both parties are enjoying reasonable competition.

Having said that, it's also the moral responsibility of the creators to rectify the situation so as to dissuade needless exploits that are too tempting for your average player to not exploit.

Having said that, there's also a soft moral code around not been needlessly haughty and judgmental, so that has to be balanced against an understanding of other soft moral violations.

On the grand scheme though, these sort of things are non-issues. We are better served with other soft moral codes that say that we should develop patience, understanding and emotional control that allows us to deal with a wide variety of personality types in a manner that doesn't lead to needless escalation, and better allows us a measure of peace and enjoyment out of life in general.
 
In this instance it seems like a serious issue on the development side, to the point where in order to lose you would actively have to play poorly. If its that poorly balanced I can't believe anyone would even want to play that mode.

In general, though, I think there is a moral obligation to 'fairness' in play, insofar as spamming the same move over and over in a fighting game is poor sportmanship, as is ragequitting or abusing a glitch to gain the upper hand. Basically, if you are having 100% of the fun and your opponent is having 0% of the fun than something is going wrong (either with matchmaking or with you).
 
okay...gaming side gaf posters are weird as fuck

If it was the OT most wouldn't know what anal sex was. Somebody started a thread today because they weren't sure if it was actually the moon they saw in the sky because it was still daylight. Sorry OT posters are way dumber.
 
I mean, the onus is on the developers for making a shitty map. I probably would try to avoid such a map though because that doesn't sound fun.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Relevant. With games like Battlefield, no, you're supposed to figure out ways to completely suppress the enemies via map control and coordination. It's designed with that in mind, unlike something like Bloodborne, where both are encouraged to ue any tactic possible to kill the other player.. That's the main difference between that and other games compared to Halo, which is ALL about giving both team equal choices. So it seems 343 made a lot of mistakes in terms of design that the community is now exploiting which goes against the spirit of the game.

Do you care if your gf enjoys anal...no you just put it in.
What the fuck?!
 

Bombless

Member
In general, no. In reality, be a dick long enough and you'll end up without any opponents willing to play.

In this particular case, 343 were probably smoking funny things when designing this map.
 

Acerac

Banned
I don't believe it to be their responsibility on a per-match basis.

However, players are still responsible for the general state of the overall game. With that knowledge, if you know that the exploit or tactic you are using is detrimental to encouraging other people to play, then it's on your own head when your community self-destructs.

That said... this sounds like 343's fault more than anything.

I disagree strongly with this.

The knowledge is out there, and people who want to take advantage will use it. If the general playerbase does not due to a moral code, only the scummy players get an advantage. I've seen it happen many times, if a tactic is game winning but unpopular due to a code of morals nonsense, the developers ignore it.

When a game ending exploit is being done by EVERYONE however, devs can't ignore that. If every game on this map is being decided by who pulls off this exploit first, patches come much sooner.

It sucks that this is the best way to get developers to respond to their own mistakes, but it is what it is.
 

Laughing Banana

Weeping Pickle
There is no "moral responsibility" to ensure anyone has fun. That's the wrong way to look at it. The real question is, what allows you to get the most out of what you're doing? If you're only playing to get score and you don't care about the opponents, if the map sucks and you're getting what you want, whatever. If the other players aren't having fun, they can leave and if no one plays the map anymore the developer will know something is up. On the other hand, if you're playing because you want to have some challenge from human opponents and you enjoy the back and forth, then if there are things you can do to even stuff up on a shitty map to make it more fun for everyone, why not? It's not your responsibility but if you get something out of it, it's win-win.

Kinda disagree with this. There's a reason why various games, like Helldivers, have a kick button specifically designed to kick arseholes or players playing wayyyy above what level they're supposed to since a player's behavior can and will directly impact other's enjoyment of the game; so yes, IMO you do have a "moral responsibility" insofar that you have to act appropriately when playing with other people by not screwing up with their games and act like actual, decent person.
 

Aces&Eights

Member
Older and wiser now I'd say this is a bad thing. Earlier in life, I spawned camped the shit out of people in Rainbow Six and loved every minute of it. I fed on rage quitting before it was a thing.
 
Well, we do have a soft (in terms of the consequences and enforcement of it) moral code setup around this kinda stuff... we call it sportsmanship.

So yes, it's morally responsible to play in a sporting manner to ensure that both parties are enjoying reasonable competition.

Having said that, it's also the moral responsibility of the creators to rectify the situation so as to dissuade needless exploits that are too tempting for your average player to not exploit.

Having said that, there's also a soft moral code around not been needlessly haughty and judgmental, so that has to be balanced against an understanding of other soft moral violations.

On the grand scheme though, these sort of things are non-issues. We are better served with other soft moral codes that say that we should develop patience, understanding and emotional control that allows us to deal with a wide variety of personality types in a manner that doesn't lead to needless escalation, and better allows us a measure of peace and enjoyment out of life in general.
I agree with most of this. Especially talking about playing in a sporting manner in a way to ensure both parties are enjoying reasonable competition. I mean....if it isn't reasonable or fair competition, what is the point? It isn't even a game at that point anymore. Sure, one can't always ensure the competition is fair. But the example in the OP? Yeah. That can be avoided.
 
Well, glitch or exploit abuse is one thing, but most of this sounds like bad design allowing a fairly basic strategy to completely and utterly dominate. More of a balance issue then a "cheating" issue, in other words, and in that case I don't think there's any moral obligation to handicap yourself because the developers didn't balance the game correctly.
 

Syril

Member
Wow that sounds like a really thoughtlessly designed map. If I was in that situation I would just refuse to play on it.
 
If the game is billed as competitive, then no. I play to win and expect the opponent to do the same. Doing otherwise is disrespectful. With that said you should keep good manners, because no one likes an 8 year old raging in chat.

Something billed as a more casual or party game? Yeah, you want both people to have fun because we aren't necessarily playing to win, but more to bond or have fun.
 
This reminds me of the first year of Destiny crucible, teaming up with strats that broke the dev's shitty design.

I'd say there's no moral responsibility of mine to ensure anything about the opponent.
 

duckroll

Member
Kinda disagree with this. There's a reason why various games, like Helldivers, have a kick button specifically designed to kick arseholes or players playing wayyyy above what level they're supposed to since a player's behavior can and will directly impact other's enjoyment of the game; so yes, IMO you do have a "moral responsibility" insofar that you have to act appropriately when playing with other people by not screwing up with their games and act like actual, decent person.

I just don't see it as a moral responsibility. A social one, sure. If you want others to play with you, don't be a dick to them. But in competitive games especially, it's hard to draw the line between being a dick and just not compromising. Different players will have different standards. Some people just want to casually have fun and don't like being dominated. Some don't like other players to go easy on them. Team dynamics come into play too. It's not possible to be accommodating all the time. If people don't want to play with you and there's a kick function, they can use that.
 

KevinCow

Banned
Playing competitively? No, I don't think you should care if the other person is having fun.

Messing around with friends? Yeah, I think it's considerate to consider whether or not they're having fun.
 
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