Mass production is the production of large amounts of standardised products on production lines. It was popularised by Henry Ford in the early 20th Century, notably in his Ford Model T. Mass production is notable because it permits very high rates of production per person and therefore provides very inexpensive products.

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Cell processor partners IBM, Sony and Toshiba have agreed to take their technology R&D alliance into the 32nm era.

The trio first announced its plan to cooperate on the development of Cell and its underlying 90nm and 65nm fabrication technology back in 2001. Back then, they described the project as a five-year programme costing $400m.

Yesterday, the trio ushered in a second, five-year phase, this time extending the chip fabrication side of the alliance to the 32nm node and beyond.

What's missing from the announcement is discussion of the firm's plans for 45nm fabrication - suggesting Cell may skip a generation. Certainly, IBM's Lisa Su, the head of Big Blue's semiconductor operation, said the new deal focuses on "the next generation of process technologies" - implying 32nm is next-generation and 45nm isn't.

That said, Sony and Toshiba already have a separate 45nm joint development programme in place. In February 2004, the companies announced they would spend $190m to reach 45nm in 2005, at the same time other chip companies, most notably Intel, were reaching 65nm. Not that there's been any public announcement of late that the pair have achieved that goal.

The absence of IBM from the 45nm announcement may explain why all the 32nm R&D appears to be going to happen at IBM, specifically its Thomas J. Watson Research Center in Yorktown Heights, New York and at its 300mm-wafer manufacturing facility in East Fishkill. Research will also be undertaken at the Center for Semiconductor Research at Albany NanoTech, the companies said. ®

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Sony currently incurs an estimated $200 loss on every PlayStation 3 sold, but an exec from the firm said today that loss could be eliminated this fiscal year.

During a conference call Sony executive VP Nobuyuki Oneda said the firm may be able to break even on PS3 hardware this fiscal year, which ends in March 2008.

He said that the main cost-downs would have to occur in the Cell processor, RSX graphics chip and Blu-ray optical components.

“The removal of the negative margin will be when all of these factors have come out. Maybe, marginally, we could achieve this during this year,” Oneda told a Citigroup Securities analyst during a Q&A session. Oneda still couldn’t specify exactly when this break-even point may happen.

“For the negative margin to go away, the big trigger would be the cost-down in the Cell and RSX semiconductors. They are the key, and also optical pick-up is another factor, significantly,” he said.

Oneda confirmed that Sony is working on transitioning the PS3’s chips from 90nm to 65nm, which would reduce costs significantly. He said the Cell would be the first PS3 chip to make the migration, followed by the RSX chip.

Game console makers typically sell hardware at a loss, and make up for this through software sales. Nintendo, however, has made it a point to sell its hardware at a profit.

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Sony Halves PS3 Costs
Japanese giant finally looks set to make a profit on hardware sales.

UK, January 15, 2008 - Sony has managed to bring production costs of the PS3 down to around $400, a near halving of the initial $800 it took to manufacture the machine upon its launch at the end of 2006.

The drop, as reported by *****, can likely be attributed to a continuing simplification of the PS3 components and features. With both the 20GB and 60GB models being phased out, and with more readily available Blu-ray technology and the loss of backwards compatibility on the now-standard 40GB model, Sony can finally look to make a profit on each console sold.

Whether this will filter down into a cut of the retail price is unlikely in the near future, though after a rough 2007 it will at least put smiles back on the faces of Sony executives.

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Sony may move to 45 NM

Information provided through the ISSCC 2008 program are brief, but the document - which was posted earlier this month on the ISSCC website – offers some insight what we can expect to learn this year. Sony is apparently working on a 65 nm to 45 nm migration of its Cell Broadband Engine. Sony claims that the chip area size will be reduced by 34% and the 45 nm Cell will consume 40% less power than the 65 nm generation. The company also works on improving the design for manufacturability (DFM) for Cell to simplify the CPU production process.

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WarLox said:

as the cost of the ps3 goes down... the 360 will stay the same... is that what you're saying ??

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Stinkles said:

You would be right if the price of manufacturing th 360 components magically starts going up. Otherwise, train A left the station one hour before train B. Both are traveling at the same speed to the same destination...

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Stinkles said:

You would be right if the price of manufacturing th 360 components magically starts going up. Otherwise, train A left the station one hour before train B. Both are traveling at the same speed to the same destination...

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The Faceless Master said:

never as long as the PS3 always comes with a HDD and Blue Laser Diode standard and the 360 doesn't...

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TheProfessor said:

I was talking about the 360 P sorry the core was not accounted for. I think I can prove that Blu-Ray drive can in theory reach the same price as a DVD drive but it would take too much research =(

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TheProfessor said:

You assume they travel at the same time. I am stating the fact that PS3 parts will be mass produced by many electronic manufactores lowering their cost to make. 360 does not have the same situation.


If train B travels faster they might just get there at the same time.

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TheProfessor said:

You assume they travel at the same time. I am stating the fact that PS3 parts will be mass produced by many electronic manufactores lowering their cost to make. 360 does not have the same situation.


If train B travels faster they might just get there at the same time.

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The Faceless Master said:

so, basically, you will continue to change the question until you get your desired outcome? ok.

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White Man said:

But, uh, the same thing can be said of the 360.

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TheProfessor said:

Do you agree or disagree that the price of the PS3 will drop faster?

Would the price of blu-ray drives drop faster than DVD drives? Would the 360 CPU price drop faster than the Cell?

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The Faceless Master said:

so, basically, you will continue to change the question until you get your desired outcome? ok.

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TheProfessor said:

Do you agree or disagree that the price of the PS3 will drop faster?

Would the price of blu-ray drives drop faster than DVD drives? Would the 360 CPU price drop faster than the Cell?

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AdmiralViscen said:

Wasn't TheProfessor banned for trolling within a week or so of creating that account? I don't remember who he was hating on, but I have an idea.

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White Man said:

Is he implying that the 360 is not mass produced? What, are little kids in Southeast Asia making the components by hand and spackling them together?

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TheProfessor said:

Do you agree or disagree that the price of the PS3 will drop faster?

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davepoobond said:

maybe he's saying since there are more components in the PS3 that are not mass produced as the Xbox360, it has more price to drop off at a faster rate than the 360 might have in the same amount of time because those items are already in more mass production at the current time

or something.

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White Man said:

Why would PS3 parts drop significantly faster, exactly? You're assuming that the parts the 360 are made of won't be dropping. Or something.

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AdmiralViscen said:

He's saying that the parts that make the PS3 more expensive than the 360 right now will drop faster than the main components of the machine (both machines), causing both consoles to reach a certain manufacturing price point at the same time. By his reasoning, the PS3's price reduction would then match pace with the 360's, not exceed it.

So, the main components of both machines are assumed to be the same price, and falling at the same rate, while the $200 of bonus shit in the PS3 is assumed to drop in price more quickly than the rest, causing an equalization of the two console's build prices.

yea.

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TheProfessor said:

You assume they travel at the same time. I am stating the fact that PS3 parts will be mass produced by many electronic manufactores lowering their cost to make. 360 does not have the same situation.


If train B travels faster they might just get there at the same time.

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BorkBork said:

It may, but it won't matter since it also has to overcome a $200 dollar difference in price.

So the answer to "How long before PS3 manufacturing cost matches 360's?" is never, as long as the console prices are relevant.

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I predict PS3 core will eliminate the manufacturing cost difference between the 360 in 2 years.

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JCBossman said:

Condundrum:
A RED speedboat painted BLUE is going up the River at 60 MPH.
A BLUE speedboat painted RED is going Down the river at 60 MPH.
Question: How many Waffles does it take to shingle a Dog House?
.
.
.
.
ANSWER: None!
Clarification: Because Pigs don't fly!

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TheProfessor said:

. /thread

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GhaleonEB said:

Really? Because the 360 chips move to a different supplier at 65nm in a few months, which will have a dramatic impact on cost.

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Drek said:

For all the rampant dismissal going on in this thread, it actually holds a valid point.

I doubt the PS3 will reach a production cost equal to or less than the 360, but the 360 makes the most of what at the time was the peak in established hardware, powerPC cpu and a DVD drive. The modern DVD drive has been in mass production long enough that any manufacturing cost reductions will be minimal. PowerPC is also has also seen its peak days come and go, with the X360 being its last major use. While I'm sure it can still be streamlined and refined (especially a 3 core setup a la the 360's) its still a long ways towards tapping out its manufacturing efficiency.

The PS3 meanwhile is using largely new technology, Blu-Ray and Cell both have a lot more work that can be done to refine the designs and reduce costs. It won't catch the 360's older, established hardware but it could shorten the gap fairly quickly assuming the PS3's components see mass market applications.

Of course thats the crux of it though, like all things in Sony's PS3 plan, it hinges on various new technologies becoming viable. Cell needs to succeed or they're paying double the money for only marginally better CPU power than the 360, Blu-Ray needs to succeed or the media player selling point of the PS3 is very marginalized, etc. etc.. I'm not a powerful corporate executive but I don't see the viability in playing the equivalent of technological Jenga with the biggest, most expensive new piece of hardware my company has every invested in.

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TheProfessor said:

Do you agree or disagree that the price of the PS3 will drop faster?

Would the price of blu-ray drives drop faster than DVD drives? Would the 360 CPU price drop faster than the Cell?

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Scottlarock said:

I'[m not sure, CD players seem still much cheaper then dvd players. dvd players can still drop a decent amount, while it'll take 4-5 years for blu-ray to come close to dvd prices now.

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