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Parl · Apr 14, 2007

In Japan, it's not. The tie ratio is about 2, if that, making total software sales for PSP about 10 million compared to DS' tie ratio of about 4, and with many more systems sold, DS software drawfs PSP software about 6 to 1 and that gap continually grows.

In NA, however, the tie ratio for both DS and PSP is about the same (3.8). DS has sold many more units, however and so total softwares sales are much higher for DS than PSP in NA, but by nowhere near the kinda scale in Japan.

I'm under the impression that people say that PSP sells hardware, but software doesn't sell. That's a myth.

mabuza · Apr 14, 2007

oookay..........

Miburou · Apr 14, 2007

Taking worldwide shipped figures, the attach ratio is 4:1. However, most people aren't saying that PSP software sales have always been low, rather that lately they've taken a nose-dive. Compared GTA: LCS to GTA: VCS, for example.

1-D_FTW · Apr 14, 2007

Attached rates were awesome when it first launched.

It's been a long time since the NPD sales charts have been anything but ugly, however.

Mario · Apr 14, 2007

NA PSP software sales have been consistently rising in aggregate, but they are being split between an increasing number of titles. New titles just aren't debuting at the sales levels they have previously.

Maybe that might change if the PSP price drop brings in a lot of new users in the short term.

.dmc · Apr 14, 2007

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4529&Itemid=2

From the article, the five best selling PSP games in 2006 were

1 // GTA:LCS - 593k
2 // Madden 07 - 468k
3 // Need For Speed MW - 381k
4 // Star Wars BFII - 351k
5 // Socom : Fireteam Bravo - 312k

With the exception of Madden, they were all released in 2005 as well. So as Miburou says, the problem is that sales have collapsed, not that the tie ratio is poor.

donny2112 · Apr 14, 2007

Mario said:
NA PSP software sales have been consistently rising in aggregate, but they are being split between an increasing number of titles. New titles just aren't debuting at the sales levels they have previously.

Exactly.

Parl · Apr 14, 2007

Fair enough. PSP seems to have basically turned into GBA. Where's the GBA software in the charts?

Jenga · Apr 14, 2007

Parl said:
Fair enough. PSP seems to have basically turned into GBA.

What do you mean by that?

Scotch · Apr 14, 2007

I hear Wedbush is hiring.

Safe Bet · Apr 14, 2007

So...

Shiity first year software killed second year software sales?

Parl · Apr 14, 2007

Jenga said:
What do you mean by that?

Many different games sell moderate amounts. I'm talking today's GBA as oppose to when GBA was Queen.

Router · Apr 14, 2007

E-phonk · Apr 14, 2007

Ah, you mean it does just as well as the six year old system.

Yeah, sounds about right.

AdmiralViscen · Apr 14, 2007

Parl said:
In Japan, it's not. The tie ratio is about 2, if that, making total software sales for PSP about 10 million compared to DS' tie ratio of about 4, and with many more systems sold, DS software drawfs PSP software about 6 to 1 and that gap continually grows.

In NA, however, the tie ratio for both DS and PSP is about the same (3.8). DS has sold many more units, however and so total softwares sales are much higher for DS than PSP in NA, but by nowhere near the kinda scale in Japan.

I'm under the impression that people say that PSP sells hardware, but software doesn't sell. That's a myth.

Try using PSP software sales from the last 12 months and compare it with DS. Doesn't look quite the same as when you include the post-launch success of PSP.

Trends vs averages

tanasten · Apr 14, 2007

PSP is selling OK. Not like a PlayStation system, but ok.

I think that time will feel better to the system. In two years, I think it will be pretty popular and the price much more affordable, and Sony will promote it better. Like the PS3 of course.

BrodiemanTTR · Apr 14, 2007

tanasten said:
PSP is selling OK. Not like a PlayStation system, but ok.

I think that time will feel better to the system. In two years, I think it will be pretty popular and the price much more affordable, and Sony will promote it better. Like the PS3 of course.

So how are things on Planet Sunshine?

Galactic Fork · Apr 14, 2007

tanasten said:
PSP is selling OK. Not like a PlayStation system, but ok.

I think that time will feel better to the system. In two years, I think it will be pretty popular and the price much more affordable, and Sony will promote it better. Like the PS3 of course.

I... I can't tell if you're serious or not.

spwolf · Apr 14, 2007

.dmc said:
http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4529&Itemid=2

From the article, the five best selling PSP games in 2006 were

1 // GTA:LCS - 593k
2 // Madden 07 - 468k
3 // Need For Speed MW - 381k
4 // Star Wars BFII - 351k
5 // Socom : Fireteam Bravo - 312k

With the exception of Madden, they were all released in 2005 as well. So as Miburou says, the problem is that sales have collapsed, not that the tie ratio is poor.

tie ratio is result of... software sales :lol

and soo many great games coming out on PSP....

DeaconKnowledge · Apr 14, 2007

Has it been a week already?

Pureauthor · Apr 14, 2007

spwolf said:
tie ratio is result of... software sales :lol

More accurately, tie ratio is the result of software sales over the LTD of the system. In other words, it can represent a misleading picture - like it does now.

and soo many great games coming out on PSP....

True, but this has nothing to do with the thread.

spwolf · Apr 14, 2007

Pureauthor said:
More accurately, tie ratio is the result of software sales over the LTD of the system. In other words, it can represent a misleading picture - like it does now.

how is that exactly? You are aware that in Feb, NPD shows PSP selling >1mil titles...
In feb, it had double the tie ratio of NDS.

who is failing exactly?

jarrod · Apr 14, 2007

Using tie ratio arguments can be fallacious, as they tend to inheretly favor smaller, more dedicated bases. Even so, PSP seems to be lagging well behind other comparable secondary platforms in various markets (Genesis, N64, Xbox, etc). Some of that could be attributed to the traditionally more casual nature of the handheld market, but I'd also say PSP isn't exactly capturing the traditional handheld gamer either...

DenogginizerOS · Apr 14, 2007

I feel the success or failure of the PS3 will play a huge roll in the success or failure of the PSP. Having said that, I get the feeling that all hardware sales figures are a bit mythical and that software sales are more of an indication of a console's success. However, in the case of the PSP, homebrew and downloaded PS1 games have probably driven the sales more up until the price drop. It will be interesting to see if the software sales pick up in the coming weeks and months.

Pureauthor · Apr 14, 2007

spwolf said:
how is that exactly? You are aware that in Feb, NPD shows PSP selling >1mil titles...

And how is this >1 million titles split up? A decent number of games with decent sales? Or a small number of games with good sales? Or a large number of games with lousy sales?

Numbers don't lie, but sometimes people don't listen to what they say very well.

Safe Bet · Apr 14, 2007

jarrod said:
Using tie ratio arguments can be fallacious...

For over a year we have heard over and over and over "THE 360 TIE-RATIO IS AMAZING!!!" but all of a sudden when tie-ratio numbers are used as postive pr for a Sony machine they're irrelevant?

Uh...

Ok....

spwolf · Apr 14, 2007

Pureauthor said:
And how is this >1 million titles split up? A decent number of games with decent sales? Or a small number of games with good sales? Or a large number of games with lousy sales?

Numbers don't lie, but sometimes people don't listen to what they say very well.

so which one is better? few gigantic games or a lot of games doing good?
:lol

the fact is that latest numbers from Feb2007, show PSP having awesome tie ratio of 5.4

while DS had 3.4 tie ratio...

And you think it is good that 2-3 DS titles pickup all the sales (all from Nintendo), while bunch of 3rd party getting good results with PSP? :lol

Pureauthor · Apr 14, 2007

Safe Bet said:
For over a year we have heard over and over and over "THE 360 TIE-RATIO IS AMAZING!!!" but all of a sudden when tie-ratio numbers are used as postive pr for a Sony machine they're irrelevant?

Uh...

Ok....

Before 360 Tie ratio arguments are used, sales numbers of recent individual games are used. A tie ratio is only worthwhile if it supports the latter statistic.

What people are doing here is trying to make tie ratio stand on it's own. Doesn't work that way.

so which one is better? few gigantic games or a lot of games doing good?

the fact is that latest numbers from Feb2007, show PSP having awesome tie ratio of 5.4

while DS had 3.4 tie ratio...

And you think it is good that 2-3 DS titles pickup all the sales (all from Nintendo), while bunch of 3rd party getting good results with PSP?

*sigh*

From February NPD thread:

Nintendo DS 485,000

PlayStation Portable 176,000

Now, using calculations:

485, 000 X 3.4 = 1649000

176, 000 X 5.4 = 950400

DS software still sold more on an absolute basis. Thank you for proving my point that tie ratio cannot stand on its own.

Branduil · Apr 14, 2007

.dmc said:
http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4529&Itemid=2

From the article, the five best selling PSP games in 2006 were

1 // GTA:LCS - 593k
2 // Madden 07 - 468k
3 // Need For Speed MW - 381k
4 // Star Wars BFII - 351k
5 // Socom : Fireteam Bravo - 312k

With the exception of Madden, they were all released in 2005 as well. So as Miburou says, the problem is that sales have collapsed, not that the tie ratio is poor.

Ouch, I knew PSP had poor software sale in 2006, but I didn't know it was that bad. I wonder what the next-highest 2006 title was after Madden.

Safe Bet · Apr 14, 2007

I sense much spin in this thread....

DeaconKnowledge · Apr 14, 2007

spwolf said:
so which one is better? few gigantic games or a lot of games doing good?
:lol

the fact is that latest numbers from Feb2007, show PSP having awesome tie ratio of 5.4

while DS had 3.4 tie ratio...

And you think it is good that 2-3 DS titles pickup all the sales (all from Nintendo), while bunch of 3rd party getting good results with PSP? :lol

I don't even know where to begin with this..

spwolf · Apr 14, 2007

Pureauthor said:
Now, using calculations:

485, 000 X 3.4 = 1649000

176, 000 X 5.4 = 950400

DS software still sold more on an absolute basis. Thank you for proving my point that tie ratio cannot stand on its own.

what exactly is your point? that tie ratio of 5.4 sucks because NDS sells 2x more software (even though it sells 3.5 more hardware?)... thats pretty silly actually.

I have an feeling that if things were opposite, you would be glorifying big attach ratio.

Problem with PSP software WAS that they didnt have good games for PSP and hence their software sales were really low. However, last crop of games coming out in past 6 months were really good, and hence the tie ratio is now much improved.

everything else is just poor attempt at spinning by you, for which there is no reason whatsoever.

p.s. tell to the 3rd party software producers how on DS how their low sales mean nothing, because nintendogs are doing really swell! I am sure that EA loves the fact that their new Sims for DS is getting 2x less sales than their Madden for PSP

RiskyChris · Apr 14, 2007

So for a project last semester, I made a crude "game boy" device (I'm a comp engineer). I made 10 cartridges for it, since it's not that difficult to program pong-like games, tetris, etc.

Its tie ratio was 10.

Jokeropia · Apr 14, 2007

Pureauthor said:
485, 000 X 3.4 = 1649000

176, 000 X 5.4 = 950400

Also, software sells to the entire installed base, which isn't that much larger for the DS in USA yet. In fact, a larger percentage of American DS owners bought a game in February than American PSP owners.

Looking at tie-ratio for only an individual month is useless, especially for a system with declining hardware sales. (The original Xbox had a MONSTER tie-ratio in February, for example.)

spwolf · Apr 14, 2007

RiskyChris said:
So for a project last semester, I made a crude "game boy" device (I'm a comp engineer). I made 10 cartridges for it, since it's not that difficult to program pong-like games, tetris, etc.

Its tie ratio was 10.

except that PSP sold >1,000,000 titles in Feb 2007 alone....

Arguing that sales of software for PSP went down, when it is actually going up (together with quality of games) is crazyness.

why is attempt to discuss sales with nintendo fans like talking to women about their weight? just crazy.

Why do people take it personally when someone tries to mention that other-than-nintendo product is doing well?

Pureauthor · Apr 14, 2007

spwolf said:
what exactly is your point? that tie ratio of 5.4 sucks because NDS sells 2x more software (even though it sells 3.5 more hardware?)... thats pretty silly actually.

I'm not saying the tie ratio sucks. I'm saying that the tie ratio on it's own is useless.

I have an feeling that if things were opposite, you would be glorifying big attach ratio.

I have a feeling that if the sky were green, you would never eat chicken again.

BTW, my statement was equally relevant to this debate as yours.

Problem with PSP software WAS that they didnt have good games for PSP and hence their software sales were really low. However, last crop of games coming out in past 6 months were really good, and hence the tie ratio is now much improved.

And once again...

TIE RATIO ON IT'S OWN IS MEANINGLESS.

everything else is just poor attempt at spinning by you, for which there is no reason whatsoever.

...Yeah. You got me. Spin spin spin... Man, I'm getting dizzy

p.s. tell to the 3rd party software producers how on DS how their low sales mean nothing, because nintendogs are doing really swell! I am sure that EA loves the fact that their new Sims for DS is getting 2x less sales than their Madden for PSP

Why is the DS being dragged into this, anyway?

Regardless, I've yet to see any 3rd party devs publicly announce that the DS was a moneysink for them, and thus they are switching development to the PSP, whereas the opposite did happen with the PSP and DS. And one of those developers citing their shift was... EA.

jarrod · Apr 14, 2007

Safe Bet said:
For over a year we have heard over and over and over "THE 360 TIE-RATIO IS AMAZING!!!" but all of a sudden when tie-ratio numbers are used as postive pr for a Sony machine they're irrelevant?

Uh...

Ok....

Well, thing is, the PSP tie ratio actually isn't that great. Meanwhile 360's tie ratio is exceptional for how young the platform is... it's quite notable, PSP's isn't (though it had a surprisingly strong luanch).

It's a bit beside the point though, comparing tie ratios between platforms with an 18m difference in sell through is going to skew any meaningful comparison. Besides the fact that DS is still meeting to doubling PSP in key markets ratio wise even, nevermind the slaughter in raw figures.

spwolf · Apr 14, 2007

Jokeropia said:
Also, software sells to the entire installed base, which isn't that much larger for the DS in USA yet. In fact, a larger percentage of American DS owners bought a game in February than American PSP owners.

Looking at tie-ratio for only an individual month is useless, especially for a system with declining hardware sales. (The original Xbox had a MONSTER tie-ratio in February, for example.)

actually, I looked it up because other people are claiming that sales of software are failing... and that LTD tie ratio was good only because it was good at begining and that now it dropped down considerably...

which is an lie.

PSP with 5.4 tie ratio is having really good software sales lately. you can spin it, slice it and cut it, fact stays the fact

Segata Sanshiro · Apr 14, 2007

Safe Bet said:
I sense much spin in this thread....

Yes, so do I, and it's pretty sad. Every single publisher for the PSP had their sales go down year over year except EA, who saw a minor increase. Sales went down, in spite of the install base increasing.

The PSP has an okay tie ratio, but that tie ratio has been steadily decreasing over time. What that means is that the PSP sold an amazing amount of software initially, and ever since then, the average has been getting brought lower and lower. How does an average keep getting lower?

Professor Math says, "Add numbers lower than the mean!"

The reason why tie ratios matter on the 360 is because they are holding quite high. The 360 continues to maintain its tie ratio over time, indicating...oh, sorry, Professor Math?

Professor Math says, "Maintaining a similar average indicates the numbers being average are similar to the mean!"

The PSP software sales situation is not really in a good place. Sometimes for this to be really clear you have to look at the individual sales of titles and franchises. Someone said to look at the sales of Vice City compared to Liberty City; please do. Or maybe check out the sales of SOCOM 2 vs. SOCOM. A few titles are still enjoying very good sales, many are enjoying okay sales that are sharply down from the previous installments, and many more are crashing against the rocks, hard.

Which is all too bad, because the PSP has an excellent library. Why people aren't buying the software to go with their hardware is absolutely beyond me.

Pureauthor · Apr 14, 2007

spwolf said:
PSP with 5.4 tie ratio is having really good software sales lately. you can spin it, slice it and cut it, fact stays the fact

The DS has two screens. You can spin it, slice it and cut it, facts stays the fact.

Said fact, however, remains a useless fact in sales debate.

MUCH LIKE THE FACT OF THE PSP'S TIE RATIO WHEN NOT BEING USED IN CONJUNCTION WITH OTHER INFORMATION.

spwolf · Apr 14, 2007

Pureauthor said:
Why is the DS being dragged into this, anyway?
Regardless, I've yet to see any 3rd party devs publicly announce that the DS was a moneysink for them, and thus they are switching development to the PSP, whereas the opposite did happen with the PSP and DS. And one of those developers citing their shift was... EA.

check how well EA games are selling on NDS :lol

as to DS being dragged in, i would think it started when someone tried to suggetst that PSP isnt doing that bad, and then hordes of Nintendo fans came in immediatly, claiming things that are simply not true.

And what is not true is PSP software sales failing... they are actually doing really well lately.

jarrod · Apr 14, 2007

spwolf said:
check how well EA games are selling on NDS :lol

Sim City DS just moved 100k in Japan.... not too shabby.

DCharlie · Apr 14, 2007

And what is not true is PSP software sales failing... they are actually doing really well lately.

please define failing and really well.

Pureauthor · Apr 14, 2007

spwolf said:
check how well EA games are selling on NDS :lol

Check out their press release at their disgruntlement at their awful software sales on DS and the statement of their intention to shift support back to PSP.

Oh, wait.

as to DS being dragged in, i would think it started when someone tried to suggetst that PSP isnt doing that bad, and then hordes of Nintendo fans came in immediatly, claiming things that are simply not true.

Really.

how is that exactly? You are aware that in Feb, NPD shows PSP selling >1mil titles...
In feb, it had double the tie ratio of NDS.

who is failing exactly?

This was posted by you. Prior to this, only ONE poster mentioned the DS, and that was AdmiralViscen. No one paid attention to him.

After that, you brought up this point including the DS and the 'double tie ratio' (which you proved false yourself). I ignored it since it wasn't relevant to the argument in the first place. But you kept at it.

And what is not true is PSP software sales failing... they are actually doing really well lately.

Based on what? Let me guess... tie ratio?

Luckyman · Apr 14, 2007

If publisher´s aren't making money on PSP.. why are they putting games on it.

Segata Sanshiro · Apr 14, 2007

spwolf said:
check how well EA games are selling on NDS :lol

as to DS being dragged in, i would think it started when someone tried to suggetst that PSP isnt doing that bad, and then hordes of Nintendo fans came in immediatly, claiming things that are simply not true.

And what is not true is PSP software sales failing... they are actually doing really well lately.

sp, with all due respect, not everyone who feels the PSP software situation is poor is a Nintendo fanboy, and with regards to stating things that are "simply not true", you are the one cherry-picking data to serve your cause. In statistical research circles, that kind of shit gets you kicked out.

DCharlie · Apr 14, 2007

how is that exactly? You are aware that in Feb, NPD shows PSP selling >1mil titles...
In feb, it had double the tie ratio of NDS.

who is failing exactly?

... you?

Axord · Apr 14, 2007

This seems like it's going around in circles! And while that's entertaining and all, I suggest that people break out some graphs and charts if they want any hope of making progress.

Jokeropia · Apr 14, 2007

EA's probably not the best way to support your case since they were the ones who came up with this quote:

EA executive VP David Gardner said:
There's no doubt that EA has historically bet more on PSP. I think we were excited by the technology, but the consumers have proven that actually what they want is fun.

http://www.pspfanboy.com/2006/08/11/fun-ds-not-psp-says-ea-exec/

Segata Sanshiro · Apr 14, 2007

Axord said:
This seems like it's going around in circles! And while that's entertaining and all, I suggest that people break out some graphs and charts if they want any hope of making progress.

It's not going to work anyway. spwolf sort of has an agenda, and I'll give him credit, he sticks to it quite well.

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