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Jasper, Opus, Vanilla - 360 motherboard rumour zone

Walshicus

Member
http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/digitaljoystick/archives/132014.asp?from=blog_last3

There is not one but two secret Xbox cats that Microsoft has kept in the bag. Currently there are three more Xbox 360 motherboards in the works right now. They are.. dun dun dun.. Jasper, Opus and Valhalla.

It's well known that the next Xbox 360 motherboard is going to be Jasper and it going to have both a 65 nm CPU and a 65 nm GPU. Jasper is going to be a major advancement in reliability since it is going to run much quieter than previous Xbox 360 systems. Jasper's reliability is in part to the fact that there is no place on the motherboard that is going to be running as hot or as much power as previous Xbox 360 systems, also it might run a lot quieter since it will not need as much power.
Jasper is very real and they are testing prototypes right now. Word from Redmond is that progress on Jasper is going well and on schedule and you can expect it fall of 2008.

The Opus project is a "Falcon" generation motherboard designed to fit in a Xenon case. You can expect an 90 nm GPU but a 65 nm CPU. Opus solves a major hardware recycling and inventory problem since Microsoft currently has millions of used Xenon cases from RRODed dead systems and this lets them use most of the good parts from the millions of dead Xenons but with a newer tested more reliable motherboard.
There is no HDMI on Opus since the Xenon cases don't have openings for the port. Opus is a third generation Xbox 360 in the case of a first.

Now they are also in the very early stages of designing the fourth generation Xbox 360 called Valhalla.
At the heart of a Valhalla Xbox 360 is a combined 65nm CPU and 65nm GPU on a unified super chip. This also would only need one cooling system and be much quieter and hopefully more reliable than previous Xbox systems (if they include hardware JTAG testing reporting into the design).
It is really early in the design process but there are engineers at Microsoft working on it as you are reading this.

Microsoft has planned on near annual changes to the Xbox 360 motherboard generation designs.
First was the Xenon motherboard from 2005-06, then followed by the Zephyr motherboard 2006-2007, then the Falcon Motherboard 2007-now. Probably later on this year we will see the Jasper Motherboard 2008-2009. Then then comes Valhalla the year four motherboard in late 2009 or mid 2010.


Interesting timing to see this nugget rumoured upon. Wonder if it's true? Wonder if I'll fuck up the title with the flavour smoothie I'm drinking?
 

Durante

Member
If this Opus rumor is true it basically confirms completely unprecedented failure rates. I mean, designing a whole MB layout to recycle components is unheard of.

Also, I really hope they invest a few cents more per unit in the drives, they are the more extreme noise problem.
 

Jonnyram

Member
Opus sounds like horseshit. In fact the writing of the whole article is very sloppy - either it was written by a teenager, or it was written in five minutes with no proofreading.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Jonnyram said:
Opus sounds like horseshit. In fact the writing of the whole article is very sloppy - either it was written by a teenager, or it was written in five minutes with no proofreading.

Yeah, reading again it sounds weird.

Jasper is next, with 65nm CPU and GPU, and then Opus after it, with 90nm GPU, and no HDMI? Hmmmm?
 
Dunlop said:
How could they possibly sell a SKU with no HDMI now?

Or will it just be for refurbs?

Pretty much. If you send back a non-hdmi unit, then you'll get one back. I've seen a few reports of people getting 'new' 360s back with no hdmi port. Not sure why they just don't stick to producing Falcon's to simplify manufacturing but hey-ho.



65nm CPU + GPU + eDram on a single chip? I'm sorry but I can't see this happening. At 45nm you might see the GPU + eDram on a single die, but the CPU as well....

I'll bookmark this thread so I can come back to it in Q4 2009 to see if I was right! :D
 

Durante

Member
Jonnyram said:
Opus sounds like horseshit.
I agree. I find it hard to believe that the savings from recycling a few components would outweigh the cost of designing a MB and actually planning and carrying out that recycling. Not the mention the confusion in the product lineup by still having units with no HDMI.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Oh, and this is just a reader blog.. I thought glancing at the link it was a seattle post article..
 
gofreak said:
Oh, and this is just a reader blog.. I thought glancing at the link it was a seattle post article..

Its the same guy who had the story of Bungie leaving MS (although his latest 'insider' interview on causes of RROD left a lot to be desired)
 

Walshicus

Member
sionyboy said:
Its the same guy who had the story of Bungie leaving MS (although his latest 'insider' interview on causes of RROD left a lot to be desired)
Wouldn't have posted it if he didn't have at least *some* Credibility Points.
 
Sir Fragula said:
Wouldn't have posted it if he didn't have at least *some* Credibility Points.

:lol

He hit the nail on the head with the Bungie stuff (even if he did post about locks being changes at the Bungie offices.... trying to keep out a shotgun wielding Steve Balmer no doubt) but some of the stuff in his article on RRODs was a bit mixed and underwent several edits to clean up the info inside of it.

I know Dean Takahashi has written on the future of the 360 innards at some point, it was the piece where he confirmed Jasper, it would be interesting to see if anything Dean wrote matches up with 8bitjoystick.

I'll have to go find the article.
 

Dunlop

Member
sionyboy said:
Pretty much. If you send back a non-hdmi unit, then you'll get one back. I've seen a few reports of people getting 'new' 360s back with no hdmi port. Not sure why they just don't stick to producing Falcon's to simplify manufacturing but hey-ho.

Can you ship back a falcon? I thought they used different power bricks
 
Dunlop said:
Can you ship back a falcon? I thought they used different power bricks

They do, although some Falcon's do come with the older 203W power brick as they are backwards compatible, although the new 175W are not.

I'm not sure, I've wondered myself what happens if you send back a Falcon and get a Zepyhr back. I'd hope that MS technical support would have the common sense to send back a Falcon, but this is MS after all.
 

Roquentin

Member
At this point, version with 65nm GPU should have been already released (and rumors should be about 45nm).

But is there anything they could do about those loud DVD drives?
 

tanod

when is my burrito
With Valhalla, they'll almost be caught up to a similar design of what the PS3 motherboard is now, except that the PS3 is going to be 45nm before it comes out.

Agree with Jonnyram, though. Kinda smells like bullshit. I would expect to hear this stuff from Dean Takahashi at Mercury News first before I'd believe it anywhere else.
 

pswii60

Member
Wollan said:
Who picks these names?

24CF3717-D92F-A832-F270486C6317C00E.jpg

tU4E1_339145_l.jpg

vanillaice.jpg
 
If valhalla becomes a scaled down 360 in terms of size that would be nice, I would sell my launch 360 for funds towards one (if its still working at that point of time)
 

watership

Member
Dunlop said:
How could they possibly sell a SKU with no HDMI now?

Or will it just be for refurbs?

Referbs, repairs etc. You send them back your 2005 360, they can put the newer chipset into the oldest shell.
 

oldergamer

Member
tanod said:
With Valhalla, they'll almost be caught up to a similar design of what the PS3 motherboard is now, except that the PS3 is going to be 45nm before it comes out.


That's not correct. If this rumor is true, Valhalla combines both GPU and CPU onto one single die/chip. That is something not found in any PS3 to date. All current PS3's have a seperate GPU and CPU.
 
Durante said:
I agree. I find it hard to believe that the savings from recycling a few components would outweigh the cost of designing a MB and actually planning and carrying out that recycling. Not the mention the confusion in the product lineup by still having units with no HDMI.
Who says Opus is intended to be released at retail? Perhaps its use lies elsewhere. Would you rather have a refurbished Xenon motherboard instead when your system is repaired?
 

watership

Member
tanod said:
With Valhalla, they'll almost be caught up to a similar design of what the PS3 motherboard is now, except that the PS3 is going to be 45nm before it comes out.

The PS3 45 nanometer die size is farther out than the 360s. Sony just started talking about that a week ago, while the 45 nm die size for 360 was been in the works since last year.
 
Psychotext said:
Wouldn't it be cheaper to just punch holes in the cases rather than design a new motherboard? :D
And then have everyone and their uncle demanding repairs for their "free HDMI upgrade" that Joe Bob across the street just got? Oh yes... that's much cheaper.
 

tanod

when is my burrito
oldergamer said:
That's not correct. If this rumor is true, Valhalla combines both GPU and CPU onto one single die/chip. That is something not found in any PS3 to date. All current PS3's have a seperate GPU and CPU.
Sorry, I read that wrong.

watership said:
The PS3 45 nanometer die size is farther out than the 360s. Sony just started talking about that a week ago, while the 45 nm die size for 360 was been in the works since last year.
IBM says that the 45nm PS3 cell is in production right now.

I also found this interesting tidbit:
Sony announced a 45nm partnership with Toshiba back in 2005, and then the pair picked up NEC as a third partner in 2005.
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070313-ibm-starts-65nm-cell-production.html?rel
 

oldergamer

Member
tanod said:
Sorry, I read that wrong.


IBM says that the 45nm PS3 cell is in production right now.
I was pretty certain they only said they were working on it. Are you sure they said it was in production?
 

tanod

when is my burrito
oldergamer said:
I was pretty certain they only said they were working on it. Are you sure they said it was in production?

IBM introduced the 45nm version of the Cell B.E. processor at ISSCC earlier this week, fabbed on IBM's 45nm SOI line at East Fishkill and targeted primarily towards future revisions of the Playstation 3 gaming console and Cell blade servers.

http://www.beyond3d.com/content/news/582

The Fishkill plant is IBM's main production plant of Cell chips.
 

pswii60

Member
oldergamer said:
I was pretty certain they only said they were working on it. Are you sure they said it was in production?

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080207-ibm-shrinks-cell-to-45nm-cheaper-ps3s-will-follow.html

SAN FRANCISCO — At an ISSCC session yesterday afternoon, IBM announced details of a smaller, lower-power version of the Cell BE processor that powers Sony's PlayStation 3. The Cell BE is currently fabricated on IBM's 65nm SOI process, but IBM will soon move the console chip onto the company's much-ballyhooed, next-generation 45nm high-k process

Not in production, but 'soon' doesn't sound at all far off. While this may make the PS3 chips seem far cheaper for Sony, don't forget that they co-own the CELL license with Toshiba and IBM, so royalties are due there, and the video chip is actually Nvidia's - they don't fully own the design for that either. On the flip-side, while MS co-worked with IBM and ATI to design their 360 CPU/GPU, MS actually 100% fully own the design of them, so their only costs are production, not royalties (unlike last gen when they got screwed over by Intel and Nvidia).
 

MaX_PL

Banned
im pretty sure the xbox 360 will never be quiet because of the drive. unless theyre referring to sound at idle.
 

pswii60

Member
tanod said:
Look up 1 post. They are fabricating the chip. I don't know if Sony is producing with it yet since they'll have to do some design work around it for the next PS3 revison but the 45nm cell is a physical reality.

I know, that post didn't exist when I started typing mine.

MaX_PL said:
im pretty sure the xbox 360 will never be quiet because of the drive. unless theyre referring to sound at idle.

They could improve the drive noise greatly through better quality drives and noise reduction padding and insulation etc. Strange though, some discs are pretty quiet on my Elite, just making more of an aerodynamic noise, others make a humming noise though (if they are ever so slightly warped).
 
I'm positive that 5.25" slim DVD drives are quieter than their full size bretheren. However, give that they cost more I doubt we'll see them in 360s anytime soon.

A 12x DVD drive is also going to produce noise unfortunately, anyone hoping for a 'silent' 360 is going to be somewhat disappointed.
 
It's funny how they keep mentioning that it will make the system quieter... ... but fail to address the only part of the Xbox 360 that is really responsible for the atrocious noise level of the machine: The DVD drive.

Seriously, what the fuck? It doesn't matter how quiet the system itself is if the DVD drive makes as much noise as a fucking jet engine. It's still going to be just as noisy in the end.
 

Ghost

Chili Con Carnage!
AtomicShroom said:
It's funny how they keep mentioning that it will make the system quieter... ... but fail to address the only part of the Xbox 360 that is really responsible for the atrocious noise level of the machine: The DVD drive.

Seriously, what the fuck? It doesn't matter how quiet the system itself is if the DVD drive makes as much noise as a fucking jet engine. It's still going to be just as noisy in the end.


Cant really be fixed, spinning that fast makes noise. simple as.
 

Rolf NB

Member
sionyboy said:
I'm positive that 5.25" slim DVD drives are quieter than their full size bretheren.
Actually no. They have less mass which makes them more prone to vibration and there is less insulation space to dampen the air noises. A bare slimline drive will always be louder.
It can go the other way though when you stick a slim drive into the same space as a big standard drive, if you use up all the extra space for noise absorption. That would of course eliminate the space savings, so it's not exactly the obvious solution for a closed-box design.
 

acm2000

Member
i'll wait for cinnamon before i trade my old 360 for a new one, i hear cinnamon will cpu+gpu+ps3+wii in one chip
 
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