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jakershaker · Mar 5, 2008

Link to report [PDF]

With all those piracy threads popping up perhaps it would be nice to discuss the real reason why lots of people turn to piracy, the lack of viable options.

Some bits from the report:

- Biggest reason for copywright infringement is the lack of choice, 70% says stuff like 'legal sites just don't have the range of illegal ones'

- One third of UK people have downloaded stuff or plans to do so in the future.

- Half of bittorrent dowloads are tvshows

- 68% of those who have dowloaded stuff says the illegal alternatives are much more convenient, they can get what they want faster

- Anti piracy campaigns are not effective. 68% don't think they can be caught.

My guess is that the survey is mostly music/movie based but some things can be applied to game piracy too. There is still no good digital distribution with a big backlog and most publishers onboard with good prices. Too much pressure from ordinary stores and companies lack of cooperation with eachother and the ones providing the distributionplatform. Would a perfect world with say Steam containing 10 times as many games with better prices stop the casual pirates or have people simply learned to get stuff for free?

Sho_Nuff82 · Mar 5, 2008

jakershaker said:
- 68% of those who have dowloaded stuff says the illegal alternatives are much more convenient, they can get what they want faster

That whole Free.99 deal has got to help. It's not like people can't just jump on Amazon in the UK and order any movie, TV show, or music that's practically ever been released in seconds, probably at a discounted price.

pr0cs · Mar 5, 2008

jakershaker said:
[Would a perfect world with say Steam containing 10 times as many games with better prices stop the casual pirates or have people simply learned to get stuff for free?

It would help but in the end the majority of people who steal stuff wouldn't buy it if it cost a pittance. They're used to getting their stuff for free and they'll continue down that path.. my opinion anyway.

TheExodu5 · Mar 5, 2008

The TV shows one is an easy thing to remedy. Offer mid-quality level streaming with ads throughout for all network TV shows.

By the way, is downloading TV shows legal? Does it fall under fair use? I'm guessing not. I do it often to catch up on a series that I want to get into (but otherwise have no means of watching). I do it with fan-subbed anime as well, because I really can't afford to pay $25+tax for 4 episodes of Bleach

. I try to tune in to the dubbed TV shows to at least help support the shows I download though.

I mean, I know I end up buying more DVDs as a result of downloading TV shows (because I really don't watch much network TV, and rarely catch the first episodes of a show so I need to catch up somehow). I've bought all my TV series DVD box sets as a result of being exposed to them through the net. Still, I don't like the idea of downloading them if it's illegal. I really wish more networks aired their shows online...at least they could generate ad revenue while doing so.

Ghost · Mar 5, 2008

- 68% of those who have dowloaded stuff says the illegal alternatives are much more convenient, they can get what they want faster

Unfortunately that doesnt mean 68% of people would pay for it if it was just as easy and quick, though probably a decent proportion of them would.

The TV shows one is an easy thing to remedy. Offer mid-quality level streaming with ads throughout for all network TV shows.

By the way, is downloading TV shows legal? Does it fall under fair use? I'm guessing not. I do it often to catch up on a series that I want to get into (but otherwise have no means of watching). I do it with fan-subbed anime as well, because I really can't afford to pay $25+tax for 4 episodes of Bleach . I try to tune in to the dubbed TV shows to at least help support the shows I download though.

I mean, I know I end up buying more DVDs as a result of downloading TV shows (because I really don't watch much network TV, and rarely catch the first episodes of a show so I need to catch up somehow). I've bought all my TV series DVD box sets as a result of being exposed to them through the net. Still, I don't like the idea of downloading them if it's illegal. I really wish more networks aired their shows online...at least they could generate ad revenue while doing so.

Downloading UK TV probably only barely qualifies as illegal now, and it'd be stupid to do anyway because all the channels (bar channel 5) have free catchup services online. Most TV show downloads are of US shows that haven't aired here yet, that is a big problem because, for example, NBC cant sell episodes of Lost to UK viewers because they've sold the UK distribution rights to Sky, so Sky lose out every time someone downloads instead of waiting.

sprocket · Mar 5, 2008

- 100% of those answers are BS

- 100% of all piracy happens because they can get it for free

QVT · Mar 5, 2008

I personally think it's more convienent to go to the store and buy discs and be able to watch them on your TV than having to sit in front of a computer screen after waiting days and days for a download to finish.

It's because it's free. And really it should be, or at least cheap. They showed it on fucking network tv, most of the time.

dionysus · Mar 5, 2008

Great, a study that reveals how pirates justify their piracy to themselves and refuse to acknowledge the real reason.

Dr von plutt · Mar 5, 2008

If you want to watch lost or the wire in the uk when its aired, piracy is your only alternative. Same goes for new movies. Why wait months sometimes years for a show.

monkeylite · Mar 5, 2008

I kinda understand why some Brits pirate American TV shows, mainly because it takes ages to arrive here. Fun fact: the latest season of Desperate Housewives and Heroes has not begun airing yet. Kinda depressing isn't it? Especially when you know UK channels like Channel 4 and ITV would rather spend getting more shit reality TV shows on air. But that doesn't make it right though.

About getting games faster is a silly reason. I wonder how fast most of their broadband connections are, with many games coming in at multi-GB size.

Stumpokapow · Mar 5, 2008

TV show downloads would fall dramatically if PVR functionality expanded and PVR cost and DRM dropped.

If you were permitted to record a functionally unlimited number of shows and copy them from your PVR to your computer, and this package became standard due to a fairly low cost, no one would bother Bittorrenting shows.

Movies / games / music are all different because they are items that cost money (IE piracy has the "benefit" of saving you money). With TV, it's cost "savings" are less clear.

sprocket · Mar 5, 2008

Dr von plutt said:
If you want to watch lost or the wire in the uk when its aired, piracy is your only alternative. Same goes for new movies. Why wait months sometimes years for a show.

Shows that are originally FREE I do not have problem with.

Movies and such you just should wait. or import.

TheExodu5 · Mar 5, 2008

Also, I'm in Canada...so I don't have the iTunes style alternatives where I can do it somewhat cheaply, legally.

On top of that, the price that they're demanding for TV show DVD sets is beyond ridiculous. My dad wanted to pick up Enterprise, and low and behold, he found out that a season of 24 episodes was $170 (they finally dropped to around $60 now, but now my dad decided to wait for the eventual Blu-Ray release).

It's simply impossible for me to watch anime legally. I can't say I feel too bad for downloading anime though, when it costs $7 for a 20 minute episode. And when you have filler or 5 minute catchup in every single Bleach episode that comes out, you're really feeling ripped of. I'm going to try to eventually buy Death Note on DVD, if I can get the series of 37 episodes for less than $150.

I also think downloading TV shows has little moral impact on most people, since they are essentially free to the viewer to watch on TV. It's completely the network's fault for not streaming them with ads online.

herod · Mar 5, 2008

I believe that for PC games in particular piracy occurs not just because it's free but because it's a lot easier and more pleasant than the traditional

- broken and out-of-date official game websites
- ad-filled filehosting sites to get demos
- system raping DRM protection

stack this up against simply searching thepiratebay for the game you're looking for and grabbing the one with the most seeders.

Xapati · Mar 5, 2008

sprocket said:
Shows that are originally FREE I do not have problem with.

Movies and such you just should wait. or import.

Importing is a pain due to region lock.

Cheeto · Mar 5, 2008

sprocket said:
- 100% of those answers are BS

- 100% of all piracy happens because they can get it for free

Somebody better tell these guys that they are spending too much time/money on research when they can just turn to the rumblings of NeoGaf users for the real story.

Ranger X · Mar 5, 2008

Digital distribution is shit and will still stay shitty prolly for the rest of our current life.

Couple to this that games are too expensive.

With this 2 reasons right there, piracy will continue. And prolly increase.

Dabanton · Mar 5, 2008

monkeylite said:
I kinda understand why some Brits pirate American TV shows, mainly because it takes ages to arrive here. Fun fact: the latest season of Desperate Housewives and Heroes has not begun airing yet. Kinda depressing isn't it? Especially when you know UK channels like Channel 4 and ITV would rather spend getting more shit reality TV shows on air. But that doesn't make it right though.

About getting games faster is a silly reason. I wonder how fast most of their broadband connections are, with many games coming in at multi-GB size.

Am a brit and piracy is the only option when it comes to certain shows that i like The Wire for instance is not on TV over here so Torrenting will be the only way to get a hold of season 5 for now

I do have seasons 1-3 on DVD and the 4th season is due to be released soon over here which i'll be also purchasing.

Another one is Dexter ITV one of our free channels has just started showing season 1 this week season bloody 1!!! i've already seen and enjoyed both seasons.

sprocket · Mar 5, 2008

Xapati said:
Importing is a pain due to region lock.

Well then you are shit out of luck!

What do you think you are OWED these things just because you are you? Thats the biggest BS excuse I here from pirates you guys all act as if you are OWED these things for some reason.

prodystopian · Mar 5, 2008

I think too many people generalize about piracy. Sure there are those that will download because it is free and they don't care about the moral implications. But people do download for convenience as well. I can't watch the Contender Asia in the US, which is a shame.

jakershaker · Mar 5, 2008

WhatRuOn said:
Somebody better tell these guys that they are spending too much time/money on research when they can just turn to the rumblings of NeoGaf users for the real story.

There's always people with answers :lol (especially on Gaf)

Surveys are actually a pretty good way to find tendencies in a certain population. Contrary to what most people think it's a serious business which helps a lot of companies to make the right decisions. I can't confirm the quality of this one though but they seem pretty good:

"Today, Entertainment Media Research is Europes foremost entertainment research consultancy. Headquartered in London it serves the film, music, broadcast and advertising industries in the UK, Continental Europe, Scandinavia, USA and Australasia. The company is independent and privately-owned."

And the survey looks expensive

poppabk · Mar 5, 2008

90% maybe but not 100%. Region locking of content and staggered worldwide releases play a small but significant part in piracy. DRM issues can also drive people to pirate content.

Cool Hand Luke · Mar 5, 2008

jakershaker said:
Surveys are actually a pretty good way to find tendencies in a certain population. Contrary to what most people think it's a serious business which helps a lot of companies to make the right decisions.

Newsflash: People lie about this kind of things to justify their actions.

ghibli99 · Mar 5, 2008

I remember a while back seeing something on the news about the RIAA pressing charges against a 10-year-old girl... for alleged copyright infringement she did when she was 7. Her mom was disabled and her only income was Social Security. Not giving the little girl a pass or anything, but my response to seeing that was pretty visceral. Hearing stuff like that actually made me *not* want to buy music. To paraphrase Silvio from The Sopranos, "They're two timezones behind their own ass."

Honestly, for decades, most companies and industries have gone about trying to stop piracy in ways that cripple users who legitimately purchase things. Remember when games would make you flip through manuals to find the 10th word in the 3rd paragraph on page 28? Or limiting DRM that punished users or resulted in discs not playing correctly?

Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I really believe that people who find *value* in things will actually purchase them. Casual folks will copy a lot, but they still buy things when they really want them or believe it to be worth their hard-earned dollar. Yes, there are folks who copy and steal everything, but you're not going to change their minds (and I've tried). I think the real danger are those who copy and then make a profit off of people who think they're buying the genuine article.

AstroLad · Mar 5, 2008

And here I always thought the #1 excuse was "wouldn't have bought it anyway." Kudos on the creativity!

sprocket · Mar 5, 2008

ghibli99 said:
I remember a while back seeing something on the news about the RIAA pressing charges against a 10-year-old girl... for alleged copyright infringement she did when she was 7. Her mom was diabled and her only income was Social Security. Not giving the little girl a pass or anything, but my response to seeing that was pretty visceral. Hearing stuff like that actually made me *not* want to buy music. To paraphrase Silvio from The Sopranos, "They're two timezones behind their own ass."

Honestly, for decades, most companies and industries have gone about trying to stop piracy in ways that cripple users who legitimately purchase things. Remember when games would make you flip through manuals to find the 10th word in the 3rd paragraph on page 28? Or limiting DRM that punished users or resulted in discs not playing correctly?

Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I really believe that people who find *value* in things will actually purchase them. Casual folks will copy a lot, but they still buy things when they really want them or believe it to be worth their hard-earned dollar. Yes, there are folks who copy and steal everything, but you're not going to change their minds (and I've tried). I think the real danger are those who copy and then make a profit off of people who think they're buying the genuine article.

And whos fault is that? The companies? NO... its because of the people stealing the products.

SupahBlah · Mar 5, 2008

I don't know any of my friends without an R4 card or downloaded psp ISOs.

They think I'm a joke because I buy my psp games. (latest Patapon, next God of War

)

Ikuu · Mar 5, 2008

jakershaker said:
- Anti piracy campaigns are not effective. 68% don't think they can be caught.

I don't know about that, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTbX1aMajow is pretty effective!

I personally think it's more convienent to go to the store and buy discs and be able to watch them on your TV than having to sit in front of a computer screen after waiting days and days for a download to finish.

It's pretty easy to watch any sort of video file on your TV without any real hassle, 360 and PS3 make it even easier.

jakershaker · Mar 5, 2008

Cool Hand Luke said:
Newsflash: People lie about this kind of things to justify their actions.

Newsflash: For most of the time that % isn't big enough to throw off the statistics.

Version 3.0 · Mar 5, 2008

pr0cs said:
It would help but in the end the majority of people who steal stuff wouldn't buy it if it cost a pittance. They're used to getting their stuff for free and they'll continue down that path.. my opinion anyway.

That's after they've learned to do it that way. I've always said that there's only one effective way to prevent piracy: make your product conveniently available at a reasonable price, and most people will never even consider trying to steal it.

dionysus · Mar 5, 2008

AstroLad said:
And here I always thought the #1 excuse was "wouldn't have bought it anyway." Kudos on the creativity!

That's just what the piracy-age gaffers use, and then they quote that study about some random shit game that noone would want to buy ever and extrapolate it to HL2.

Dead Prince · Mar 5, 2008

Speaking of Piracy. my ISP JUST suspended my connection until I called them. [which I did] :lol

Fight the cause! I support BUYING software that has a future. everything else is steal money from parents or find other means.

prodystopian · Mar 5, 2008

sprocket said:
And whos fault is that? The companies? NO... its because of the people stealing the products.

Yes, let's kill them all and not worry about the innocent we hurt. If only governments were so great.

Cheeto · Mar 5, 2008

sprocket said:
And whos fault is that? The companies? NO... its because of the people stealing the products.

So who's fault is it that my Crysis disc has to make a horrible clicking sound in my DVD drive for about 5 minutes before it's recognized by Windows? When the DRM causes the legit consumer more headaches then the crackers pirating it, what could possibly go wrong!? You can't point the finger at one party, because neither would exist without the other. However, something obviously has to change. When IronClad Games can release a game with zero copy protection, and go on to brag about how that contributed to a successful retail launch, I think the proof is the pudding.

ghibli99 · Mar 5, 2008

sprocket said:
And whos fault is that? The companies? NO... its because of the people stealing the products.

I wasn't commenting so much on who is at fault; I was making a statement about CP implementation... I think a lot of the "solutions" have been flimsy, problem-prone band-aid fixes at best. Do these measures actually convince pirates to buy the product? I don't think so. If anything, those folks will keep on pirating... maybe even more so as they see every new type of CP as a different challenge to crack.

AstroLad · Mar 5, 2008

WhatRuOn said:
However, something obviously has to change. When IronClad Games can release a game with zero copy protection, and go on to brag about how that contributed to a successful retail launch, I think the proof is the pudding.

Yup. I've said it before, and it's been said here several times as well, but punishing legitimate consumers has got to fucking stop. I love that I get the privilege of longer load times, having to carry around UMDs, and loud drive noises for paying $40 for a new PSP game when pirates don't have to deal with any of those. If they really believe piracy is killing their bottom line, litigate whomever you catch to hell, because punishing legit buyers is just exacerbating the situation. It took the music industry what, fifteen years to even begin to realize this?

kswiston · Mar 5, 2008

Whenever you're polling people about a topic that is perceived to be socially unexceptable, you have to take the percentage of people claiming to participate in said activity and double it. There's no way that only 1/3 of people have downloaded something illegally if they are restricting this poll to people who actually have internet access at home. It's like those teen sex polls where there's always significantly more teenage boys claiming to have sex than teenage girls, even though 4 years of highschool has taught us that it's probably pretty damn equal.

Among the people I know, I'd say it's closer to 95% who illegally download. If they aren't stealling games or movies, it's music or TV shows. Heck, a lot of people don't even see downloading tv shows as stealing, since they air for free and are often available on network sites for free as well.

StuBurns · Mar 5, 2008

sprocket said:
- 100% of those answers are BS

- 100% of all piracy happens because they can get it for free

I disagree, if you want a single song you could go to Itunes and buy it for next to nothing, a cost that no one would consider too expensive. But you get the track in a worse quality then the FLAC files you can find online for free, and you get it with massive restrictions on it's use. It is an inferior product.

I really think people just want the best product, and if it's a case of paying for something worse then you can get for free, I think that's what makes a lot of people download music illegally.

TV shows are the only thing I download illegally, but mainly because America gets all this amazing TV about two years before it's out on DVD here in the UK. I am not waiting two years to see the latest episode of anything, the idea is crazy. Either get TV out here at the same time or make all DVD's multi-region if they did that I wouldn't break the copyright, and I think a lot of people feel the same.

Lack of choice isn't valid at all, as someone said, the online stores, Play.com, Amazon etc. Have everything a torrent site would have, if they just mean they're too lazy to wait the three days for delivery then this country has bigger issues then piracy.

jmdajr · Mar 5, 2008

sprocket said:
- 100% of those answers are BS

- 100% of all piracy happens because they can get it for free

TRUTH

Kabouter · Mar 5, 2008

legal sites just don't have the range of illegal ones

This is true, even though I don't believe for one second that that's the largest reason people download games.

sprocket · Mar 5, 2008

WhatRuOn said:
So who's fault is it that my Crysis disc has to make a horrible clicking sound in my DVD drive for about 5 minutes before it's recognized by Windows? When the DRM causes the legit consumer more headaches then the crackers pirating it, what could possibly go wrong!? You can't point the finger at one party, because neither would exist without the other. However, something obviously has to change. When IronClad Games can release a game with zero copy protection, and go on to brag about how that contributed to a successful retail launch, I think the proof is the pudding.

yes I can if it wasn't for the pirates then you wouldn't need any DRMs. Its that simple. there is no excuses.

Cheeto · Mar 5, 2008

sprocket said:
yes I can if it wasn't for the pirates then you wouldn't need any DRMs. Its that simple. there is no excuses.

That's funny, the one sentence you decide to ignore is what refutes your statement.

plagiarize · Mar 5, 2008

Ghost said:
Most TV show downloads are of US shows that haven't aired here yet, that is a big problem because, for example, NBC cant sell episodes of Lost to UK viewers because they've sold the UK distribution rights to Sky, so Sky lose out every time someone downloads instead of waiting.

well, yes and no. i mean it's impossible to say in some cases.

Battlestar Gallactica for example was reported to have benefitted thanks to the people that had already downloaded it spreading great word of mouth when it finally aired on TV.

do i have any problem admitting i downloaded the last three seasons of Doctor Who before it aired on a TV channel I didn't have?

not when i have the box sets for all three seasons sat on my shelf.

kswiston · Mar 5, 2008

stuburns said:
I really think people just want the best product, and if it's a case of paying for something worse then you can get for free, I think that's what makes a lot of people download music illegally.

I'd argue that the large majority of music listeners neither have the audio equipment, or the trained ears to notice anything wrong with mp3 or aiff file encoded at 128kbps when compared to uncompressed audio unless you played the same song in both formats simultaneously. Some illegal music downloading comes from the fact that the music services with the largest music selections have restrictive DRM, but most of it still boils down to the fact that, even at $1 a song, a lot of people feel that music is too expensive.

sprocket · Mar 5, 2008

stuburns said:
I disagree, if you want a single song you could go to Itunes and buy it for next to nothing, a cost that no one would consider too expensive. But you get the track in a worse quality then the FLAC files you can find online for free, and you get it with massive restrictions on it's use. It is an inferior product.

its not a product at all... its a stolen piece of music. If you want the best quality buy the CD and rip it yourself.

THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THEFT!

Dr_Cogent · Mar 5, 2008

Dr von plutt said:
If you want to watch lost or the wire in the uk when its aired, piracy is your only alternative. Same goes for new movies. Why wait months sometimes years for a show.

I wait for everything. I see something I want to see, put it in my Netflix queue, and see it when it comes out on Blu Ray or DVD.

AstroLad · Mar 5, 2008

plagiarize said:
well, yes and no. i mean it's impossible to say in some cases.

Battlestar Gallactica for example was reported to have benefitted thanks to the people that had already downloaded it spreading great word of mouth when it finally aired on TV.

do i have any problem admitting i downloaded the last three seasons of Doctor Who before it aired on a TV channel I didn't have?

not when i have the box sets for all three seasons sat on my shelf.

I think normatively, not so much legally, there are a lot of gray areas. But the most common example of game piracy I can think of--getting an illicit copy of a game you want--falls far, far outside those gray areas.

sprocket · Mar 5, 2008

WhatRuOn said:
That's funny, the one sentence you decide to ignore is what refutes your statement.

There is no refuting it. Its a fact. If people did not STEAL software you would not need lock outs.

Stumpokapow · Mar 5, 2008

sprocket said:
THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THEFT!

There's no excuse for tax fraud either, but neither of these two things is the same as piracy.

Cheeto · Mar 5, 2008

sprocket said:
THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THEFT!

NO ONE IS APOLOGETIC TOWARDS THE PIRATES. WE JUST DON'T WANT TO BE PUNISHED FOR BEING LEGIT.

sprocket said:
There is no refuting it. Its a fact. If people did not STEAL software you would not need lock outs.

And if there weren't lock outs, people might not steal? We can both talk out of our asses all day.

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