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Supreme Court upholds photo ID law for voters in Indiana

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R

Ripclawe

Banned
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iegvd98ph9koi4IJgrhdaPAwZsxQD90ATVO00

Supreme Court upholds photo ID law for voters in Indiana
By MARK SHERMAN – 37 minutes ago

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Supreme Court ruled Monday that states can require voters to produce photo identification without violating their constitutional rights, validating Republican-inspired voter ID laws.

In a splintered 6-3 ruling, the court upheld Indiana's strict photo ID requirement, which Democrats and civil rights groups said would deter poor, older and minority voters from casting ballots. Its backers said it was needed to deter fraud.

It was the most important voting rights case since the Bush v. Gore dispute that sealed the 2000 election for George W. Bush.

The law "is amply justified by the valid interest in protecting 'the integrity and reliability of the electoral process,'" Justice John Paul Stevens said in an opinion that was joined by Chief Justice John Roberts and Anthony Kennedy.

Justices Samuel Alito, Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas also agreed with the outcome, but wrote separately.

Justices Stephen Breyer, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and David Souter dissented.

More than 20 states require some form of identification at the polls. Courts have upheld voter ID laws in Arizona, Georgia and Michigan, but struck down Missouri's. Monday's decision comes a week before Indiana's presidential primary.

The case concerned a state law, passed in 2005, that was backed by Republicans as a way to deter voter fraud. Democrats and civil rights groups opposed the law as unconstitutional and called it a thinly veiled effort to discourage elderly, poor and minority voters — those most likely to lack proper ID and who tend to vote for Democrats.

There is little history in Indiana of either in-person voter fraud — of the sort the law was designed to thwart — or voters being inconvenienced by the law's requirements.

"We cannot conclude that the statute imposes 'excessively burdensome requirements' on any class of voters," Stevens said.

Stevens' opinion suggests that the outcome could be different in a state where voters could provide evidence that their rights had been impaired.

But in dissent, Souter said Indiana's voter ID law "threatens to impose nontrivial burdens on the voting rights of tens of thousands of the state's citizens."

Scalia, favoring a broader ruling in defense of voter ID laws, said, "The universally applicable requirements of Indiana's voter-identification law are eminently reasonable. The burden of acquiring, possessing and showing a free photo identification is simply not severe, because it does not 'even represent a significant increase over the usual burdens of voting.'"
Click to expand...
 
Phoenix

Phoenix

Member
While I have always understood the issues for not wanting to require photo ID, because there are some real issues here, I never felt that the legislation was all that big a deal. I have a hard time believing a LARGE number of people within either party have no photo ID. That said I hope that some provision is made for people that lose their licenses or have them confiscated by police because the fact that you don't have a photo ID with you because it is lost/stolen/other should not be a reason to prevent you from voting.
 
Phoenix

Phoenix

Member
Tamanon said:
I don't see a reason for requiring photo ID personally.
Click to expand...


The reason given has always been that there is nothing preventing you or anyone else from going to number of polling places and saying that you are someone who you aren't. The only thing the poll person will do is check your name off a printout. Thus if you knew people who didn't vote or traditionally wouldn't bother to vote, you could get a number of votes fraudulently.
 
S

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
cough

should be required reading. granted, not all attempts at voter disenfranchisement are exclusive to the Republican Party, but this particular focus on Voter ID laws is.
 
B

bill0527

Member
You can get a free photo ID card from any license branch in Indiana. If Democrats are so worried about their constituents not being able to obtain a free photo ID, they can always bus those people to the local BMV, the same way they bus them to the polls to vote.
 
S

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
if there exist so few examples of this type of voter fraud 'in the wild', the urgency behind this measure is null and void. this is so especially seeing both the percentages and demographics of those most affected by its passage. the goal isn't so much protecting against fraud than purposeful disenfranchisement, plain and simple.
 
Phoenix

Phoenix

Member
scorcho said:
if there exist so few examples of this type of voter fraud 'in the wild', the urgency behind this measure is null and void. this is so especially seeing both the percentages and demographics of those most affected by its passage. the goal isn't so much protecting against fraud than purposeful disenfranchisement, plain and simple.
Click to expand...


Indeed. This is exactly correct. There isn't any real evidence to suggest that this move will materially change voter fraud - which is why I'm somewhat confused about the attempt, but admittedly there is a reasonable solution.
 
P

Phobophile

A scientist and gentleman in the manner of Batman.
Don't most states require those of the age of majority to carry identification on their person at all times? And every time I've gone to vote, I've been requested to present a voter registration card. Something tells me that if an adult isn't responsible enough to carry or own identification, most likely they're not the voting type and probably don't have the required voter registration card.

I don't see this as disenfranchising any demographic; plenty of people do that to themselves.
 
Phoenix

Phoenix

Member
Phobophile said:
Don't most states require those of the age of majority to carry identification on their person at all times?
Click to expand...

No. In fact I don't know ANY state that legislates this.


And every time I've gone to vote, I've been requested to present a voter registration card. Something tells me that if an adult isn't responsible enough to carry or own identification, most likely they're not the voting type and probably don't have the required voter registration card.

I don't see this as disenfranchising any demographic; plenty of people do that to themselves.
Click to expand...

That's quite a stretch. Many people simply don't have a photo ID (not voter registration card - you'd get turned away with that based on this legislation) because they didn't need it. My mom doesn't drive. She didn't need a photo ID for anything because all her transactions are electronic. She would get disenfranchised by this for two reasons:

1) She doesn't drive so she doesn't have much opportunity to get to an ID place
2) She works during the hours that the state offices are open that handle this
 
H

harSon

Banned
How much of this has to do with the Republicans being worried that Indiana has the possibility of becoming a 'battle ground state'?
 
B

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
Phobophile said:
I don't see this as disenfranchising any demographic; plenty of people do that to themselves.
Click to expand...

The data is also mounting that identification requirements have disproportionately disenfranchising impacts on certain communities. These include those less likely to have the requisite identification and those with less ability to obtain it—the poor, minorities, the elderly, the young, the elderly and urban residents. A June 2005 study by the University of Wisconsin found the following:

* An estimated 23 percent of persons aged 65 and over do not have a Wisconsin drivers license or a photo ID.
* An estimated 98,247 Wisconsin residents ages 35 through 64 also do not have either a drivers license or a photo ID.
* Less than half (47 percent) of Milwaukee County African American adults and 43 percent of Hispanic adults have a valid drivers license compared to 85 percent of white adults outside Milwaukee.
* For young adults ages 18-24 only 26 percent of African Americans and 34 percent of Hispanics in Milwaukee County have a valid license compared to 71 percent of young white adults in the balance of the state
Click to expand...

From scorcho's link.
 
A

Archaix

Drunky McMurder
scorcho said:
considering how little vote fraud actually takes place in this way, this was a solution looking for a problem.

that is, unless the problem are black/disadvantaged votes for Democrats.

http://www.tcf.org/list.asp?type=NC&pubid=1067
Click to expand...



Those numbers are all but meaningless. Unless there are similar figures on people who actually vote, then it isn't relevant to requiring ID for voting. The numbers listed on that site are not even among registered voters, it's among all residents of the state. Not to mention that the statistic suddenly switches from valid license or photo ID to valid license.

Also, what is that stat comparing african americans in Milwaukee to white americans outside of Milwaukee? Is that simply stating Milwaukee county as "outside Milwaukee" in a horrible way, or are they comparing two unrelated groups for no reason other than because the numbers look better?
 
H

harSon

Banned
Archaix said:
Those numbers are all but meaningless. Unless there are similar figures on people who actually vote, then it isn't relevant to requiring ID for voting. The numbers listed on that site are not even among registered voters, it's among all residents of the state.
Click to expand...

Republicans have a long rich history of purposeful voter disenfranchisement :)
 
A

Archaix

Drunky McMurder
harSon said:
Republicans have a long rich history of purposeful voter disenfranchisement :)
Click to expand...


This may be true, but I'd still be interested in seeing a figure on the actual number of people likely to be affected in a negative way by this.
 
F

Flynn

Member
Phoenix said:
I have a hard time believing a LARGE number of people within either party have no photo ID.
Click to expand...
With the last several elections coming so close these kinds of issues are becoming more important. The impact of the law will probably be moot this go around, but there's no way you can really deny that it isn't disenfranchising in at least a very small way.
 
S

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
Archaix said:
Those numbers are all but meaningless. Unless there are similar figures on people who actually vote, then it isn't relevant to requiring ID for voting. The numbers listed on that site are not even among registered voters, it's among all residents of the state. Not to mention that the statistic suddenly switches from valid license or photo ID to valid license.

Also, what is that stat comparing african americans in Milwaukee to white americans outside of Milwaukee? Is that simply stating Milwaukee county as "outside Milwaukee" in a horrible way, or are they comparing two unrelated groups for no reason other than because the numbers look better?
Click to expand...
so, for instance, data showing that an infinitesimally number of voter fraud is actually perpetuated in this fashion is meaningless when it comes to enforcing a policy with such obvious negatives?
 
A

Archaix

Drunky McMurder
scorcho said:
so, for instance, data showing that an infinitesimally number of voter fraud is actually perpetuated in this fashion is meaningless when it comes to enforcing a policy with such obvious negatives?
Click to expand...


There are no obvious negatives. I'm not saying this is the case, but if none of those people who have no form of ID and absolutely refuse to get any sort of ID actually would ever vote, than any amount of voter fraud, no matter how small, being corrected outweighs the negatives.
 
D

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Archaix said:
Those numbers are all but meaningless. Unless there are similar figures on people who actually vote, then it isn't relevant to requiring ID for voting.
Click to expand...
o_O

This is some seriously ass-backwards logic.
 
A

Archaix

Drunky McMurder
Dan said:
o_O

This is some seriously ass-backwards logic.
Click to expand...



How is it backwards? If those people who could potentially be adversely affected by this are not even registered to vote, then they are not being affected by it.
 
S

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
Archaix said:
There are no obvious negatives. I'm not saying this is the case, but if none of those people who have no form of ID and absolutely refuse to get any sort of ID actually would ever vote, than any amount of voter fraud, no matter how small, being corrected outweighs the negatives.
Click to expand...
so the statistics of voting-age individuals from lower-socioeconomic backgrounds without ID are now to be considered 'no obvious negatives'?

look again at the example of Ohio, where four votes out of 9,078,728 were considered fraudulent in this way. by any measure of cost-benefits analysis this type of legislation is a net-negative - unless, again, the idea behind the measure is to disenfranchise a segment of voters.
 
G

Gaborn

Member
Well let's see. This law would encourage prospective voters to get a valid driver's license. That seems like a good thing. If someone is too old to drive safely or for other reasons can not get a driver's license it encourages voters to get a photo ID. That seems good to me too.

Personally I'm more concerned that according to Scorcho's link there are so many drivers that haven't bothered to maintain a valid driver's license, or even get one at all.
 
L

laserbeam

Banned
I dont get why requiring ID is such a big deal. We have to prove we are who we say we are daily. Consiering the vast numbers of Illegal Immigrants enterting the country and the potential they have to sway elections we need a system in place to ensure people voting are by law allowed to vote.

Think its safe to say the people who are too fucking lazy to get an ID are the same people who are too fucking lazy to vote.

I cant stand people who think we shouldnt enforce the law if it might make it difficult for some.
 
S

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
laserbeam said:
Think its safe to say the people who are too fucking lazy to get an ID are the same people who are too fucking lazy to vote.
Click to expand...
you, sir, have a future in public policy.
 
G

Gaborn

Member
laserbeam said:
I dont get why requiring ID is such a big deal. We have to prove we are who we say we are daily. Consiering the vast numbers of Illegal Immigrants enterting the country and the potential they have to sway elections we need a system in place to ensure people voting are by law allowed to vote.

Think its safe to say the people who are too fucking lazy to get an ID are the same people who are too fucking lazy to vote.
Click to expand...

According to Scorcho's link the problem is that a large percentage of minorities think it's a good idea to not have a valid driver's license, and they want to continue to encourage that.
 
D

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Archaix said:
How is it backwards? If those people who could potentially be adversely affected by this are not even registered to vote, then they are not being affected by it.
Click to expand...
It doesn't matter that those people aren't registered to vote! You really don't see how how instituting obstacles (involving time and money for possibly useless photo IDs) works to keep those people from ever deciding to participate in the process?

"Hey guys, poor people aren't registered to vote. Let's take this opportunity to enact a poll tax and help keep it that way."
 
S

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
yep - liberals are all about individuals NOT having drivers licenses.

the argument behind this legislation is pure pragmatics. there is not going to be a future where every without an ID is going to magically apply and have their IDs, and the number of voter fraud cases are so amazingly low that the urgency behind this measure doesn't make sense.

this legislation disenfranchises a much larger percentage of potential voters than actually prevents this particular type of voter fraud.
 
G

Gaborn

Member
scorcho said:
yep - liberals are all about individuals NOT having drivers licenses.

the argument behind this legislation is pure pragmatics. there is not going to be a future where every without an ID is going to magically apply and have their IDs, and the number of voter fraud cases are so amazingly low that the urgency behind this measure doesn't make sense.

this legislation disenfranchises a much larger percentage of potential voters than actually prevents this particular type of voter fraud.
Click to expand...

There have always been instances where the government takes steps to encourage a population to adopt different things. Tying having a valid ID to voting does a couple of things. First, it does give you a handle on who a person is. It's hard to measure fraud after all because if it's successful then they will have voted (obviously) and who knows how many cases that "aren't" fraud really "are" and just weren't caught?

Another advantage, especially among the elderly is that if an elderly person wanders off (as sometimes happens, especially with Alzheimer patients) if they have an ID with them it makes it a LOT easier for them to be taken home safely.

Oh, and it does encourage people to, you know, get a driver's license.
 
S

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
so mandate it elsewhere and don't tie it to voting exclusively.

that the elderly and the disadvantaged are less likely to have current or any government identification underline how misguided this policy is.

that said, the idea of libertarians in favor of forced identification cards is kinda interesting to me.
 
S

speculawyer

Member
Tamanon said:
I don't see a reason for requiring photo ID personally.
Click to expand...
There are a ton of old people and a ton of poor people that don't drive and have photo ID.

If the government handed out photo IDs at many locations and for free, this could be defended. But they don't.

This is just a transparent ploy for Scalia and like-minded people to disenfranchise voters they don't like. It is no different than the poll taxes and voter tests of the past that had the objective of excluding as many black voters as possible. Conservatives used all the same arguments to defend those practices.

Democracy has taken a step backwards.
 
T

Tamanon

Banned
laserbeam said:
I dont get why requiring ID is such a big deal. We have to prove we are who we say we are daily. Consiering the vast numbers of Illegal Immigrants enterting the country and the potential they have to sway elections we need a system in place to ensure people voting are by law allowed to vote.

Think its safe to say the people who are too fucking lazy to get an ID are the same people who are too fucking lazy to vote.

I cant stand people who think we shouldnt enforce the law if it might make it difficult for some.
Click to expand...

Illegal immigrants cannot register to vote.
 
G

Gaborn

Member
scorcho said:
so mandate it elsewhere and don't tie it to voting exclusively.

that the elderly and the disadvantaged are less likely to have current or any government identification underline how misguided this policy is.

that said, the idea of libertarians in favor of forced identification cards is kinda interesting to me.
Click to expand...

I view driving as a privilege, not a right. The government has a reasonable interest in protecting citizens, they choose to do so with IDs. That's fine to me, at least at the state level. However, I oppose "REAL ID" and national ID cards generally because there's no need for the federal government to be given that information.

I think that in the case of the elderly or the indigent, it's not unreasonable to waive fees (say if you can prove you've been unemployed for a year for example, or if you're over 65) to get a driver's license/photo ID, but in all honesty they're usually not that expensive in the first place.
 
J

JayDubya

Banned
speculawyer said:
It is no different than the poll taxes and voter tests of the past that had the objective of excluding as many black voters as possible.
Click to expand...

It's no different? Really? Does this target anyone in particular, or insist that everyone go get their free little card?
 
S

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
JayDubya said:
It's no different? Really? Does this target anyone in particular, or insist that everyone go get their free little card?
Click to expand...
well, many people (including me) argue that the true motive behind this measure is to disenfranchise certain segments of the population, so yes.
 
H

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
More than anything else, this policy is backwards. Put forth a program to allow every citizen regardless of circumstance to have their own ID, then start requiring people to have it.

People should really stop using elitism as an argument here.
 
S

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
Hitokage said:
More than anything else, this policy is backwards. Put forth a program to allow every citizen regardless of circumstance to have their own ID, then start requiring people to have it.
Click to expand...
yes thank you. like i said i'm all in favor of having legislation that mandates people to have valid government IDs (provided they are either free or subsidized for low-income Americans), but tying them to voting is not the way to go about it.
 
S

speculawyer

Member
laserbeam said:
Consiering the vast numbers of Illegal Immigrants enterting the country and the potential they have to sway elections we need a system in place to ensure people voting are by law allowed to vote.
Click to expand...
And when you are an illegal immigrant scared about being deported, the place you want to go is government polling place where you have to confirm your address. :lol

laserbeam said:
Think its safe to say the people who are too fucking lazy to get an ID are the same people who are too fucking lazy to vote..
Click to expand...
Yeah, all those old people who don't drive . . . they never vote. Their lives are just too busy to vote.

laserbeam said:
I cant stand people who think we shouldnt enforce the law if it might make it difficult for some.
Click to expand...
This is the creation of a new law, not enforcement of existing law.
 
G

Gaborn

Member
speculawyer said:
And when you are an illegal immigrant scared about being deported, the place you want to go is government polling place where you have to confirm your address. :lol


Yeah, all those old people who don't drive . . . they never vote. Their lives are just too busy to vote.


This is the creation of a new law, not enforcement of existing law.
Click to expand...

Even if you don't drive you can still get a state ID with minimal trouble.
 
H

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Now, a good compromise would be that registering to vote and registering for such an ID would take place in the same process, but a certain party hasn't been supportive of such programs. I wonder why...
 
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