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Valve's Newell: Let the fans fund games. Share the risk.

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V

Visualante

Member
Kotaku linked to the video interview at GoodGame.

One of the areas that I am super interested in right now is how we can do financing from the community. So right now, what typically happens is you have this budget - it needs to be huge, it has to be $10m - $30m, and it has to be all available at the beginning of the project. There's a huge amount of risk associated with those dollars and decisions have to be incredibly conservative.

What I think would be much better would be if the community could finance the games. In other words, ‘Hey, I really like this idea you have. I'll be an early investor in that and, as a result, at a later point I may make a return on that product, but I'll also get a copy of that game.'

So move financing from something that occurs between a publisher and a developer… Instead have it be something where funding is coming out of community for games and game concepts they really like.
Click to expand...
I don't want to turn it into a "I'd fund [insert favourite game] thread..", but don't you think it would be cool if GAF could take pitches from indie developers. And we were like the platform for gamers investing in indie games. I think Dave Perry has been talking about similar ideas for a while- although not specifically targeting gamers. Like sort of a slush fund or something that developers would have access to in order to remain publisher independent longer.
 
E

erpg

GAF parliamentarian
I can see mega-early "pre-orders' available only on Steam to chip in to their budget. That'd be kind of nifty.

But normaly, investment would involve some sort of NDA, to protect concepts and designs. Or maybe Valve just isn't afraid of divulging that kind of information so early into development.
 
A

Anerythristic

Member
I am not kidding, I would put up to $200 towards a real Shadowrun RPG if they (any reputable dev.) were collecting funds from gamers to do this. So I agree with Gabe.
 
Mikey Jr.

Mikey Jr.

Member
This isnt a bad idea.

Firstly, it would have to be a developer I trust. You have to have a really good track record.

Secondly, getting a promise to get a copy of the game and I would give 60-70 bucks plus the promise to get some return. Even if it is 20 bucks if the game does well.
 
Fixed1979

Fixed1979

Member
theBishop said:
How is this different from the subscription model they pioneered and arguably discredited?
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Besides a copy of the game, you'd also receive a return on your investment (assuming it was succesful enough).
 
olore

olore

Member
Mikey Jr. said:
This isnt a bad idea.

Firstly, it would have to be a developer I trust. You have to have a really good track record.

Secondly, getting a promise to get a copy of the game and I would give 60-70 bucks plus the promise to get some return. Even if it is 20 bucks if the game does well.
Click to expand...

+1 more or less
 
Malio

Malio

Member
This will go over well with the teen and pre-teen game-playing community. Untapped wealth right there.
 
B

BeeDog

Member
Could work if you invest in a company with a good track record and timely releases. Personally I'd never shell out let's say 30 bucks on a Valve project, since God knows when it'll be finished, and the returns on the investment in such a case will probably not be that great. Will probably fit small PSN/XBLA games better though.
 
A

arstal

Whine Whine FADC Troll
Visualante said:
Kotaku linked to the video interview at GoodGame.


I don't want to turn it into a "I'd fund [insert favourite game] thread..", but don't you think it would be cool if GAF could take pitches from indie developers. And we were like the platform for gamers investing in indie games. I think Dave Perry has been talking about similar ideas for a while- although not specifically targeting gamers. Like sort of a slush fund or something that developers would have access to in order to remain publisher independent longer.
Click to expand...

Stardock does this to some degree. A portion of their budgeting for games comes from pre-orders. (they base the budget for the game on some initial money+ pre-order monies)

In return for pre-ordering, you get the game early effectively (usually Stardock's beta releases are more playable then some companies final products)
 
F

freethought

Member
So you give Valve money, get a copy of the game and if it's succesful, you make your investment back and maybe even make a return? Fuck it, if you plan on buying the game anyway, send them sixty bucks now. How can it hurt?
 
K

Kilrogg

paid requisite penance
Zeliard said:
Valve is probably one of four companies that can get away with even putting something like this out there.
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What would be the fourth company? I can think of Valve, Nintendo and Blizzard, but...
 
M

Mamesj

Banned
I can see the posts now: "Goddamnit, I gave Valve $100 6 years ago and they still haven't finished episode 3!"
 
B

badcrumble

Member
Mikey Jr. said:
This isnt a bad idea.

Firstly, it would have to be a developer I trust. You have to have a really good track record.

Secondly, getting a promise to get a copy of the game and I would give 60-70 bucks plus the promise to get some return. Even if it is 20 bucks if the game does well.
Click to expand...
Agreed, but Valve are like the last people on earth that should be suggesting this considering how much cash on hand the company's got (a ton).

The other problem is how this relates to staffing - do you raise money and then they hire people? If you don't raise the money, does the developer have to fire half of their staff? I think this model would only work with developers that can afford to make the game ANYWAY but as a way to make it financially smoother for them and reward the investor-consumer in return.
 
H

hamchan

Member
So I can just invest the price of the game and make a few cents back as well. Basically it's a super early pre-order.
 
R

Raide

Member
A fascinating idea. Imagine if you could help out a smaller Indie Dev and get rewarded for doing so. The main problem is that people would spend money and then they feel they are entitles to something more than just games, they might even think they should have an overall effect on the way the game progresses.

Too many cooks maybe?

What would happen if Valve did this but it actually made the released version much cheaper? It could be a very interesting way to lower the costs. For those that actually helped out the Developers, it might actually benefit everyone in the long run.
 
A

arstal

Whine Whine FADC Troll
Hellraizer said:
Half of GAF would probably donate a shit ton of money if SEGA would seek funds for Shenmue III.
Click to expand...

But Sega would blow the money on Sonic and the Melancholy Unicorn, and find a way to screw gamers over again.

Raide said:
A fascinating idea. Imagine if you could help out a smaller Indie Dev and get rewarded for doing so. The main problem is that people would spend money and then they feel they are entitles to something more than just games, they might even think they should have an overall effect on the way the game progresses.

Too many cooks maybe?

What would happen if Valve did this but it actually made the released version much cheaper? It could be a very interesting way to lower the costs. For those that actually helped out the Developers, it might actually benefit everyone in the long run.
Click to expand...

From above, that's the Stardock model pretty much, and yeah, the gamers who pre-order do feel kinda entitled, but the model works for them, and usually improves the game heavily.
 
Z

Zenith

Banned
They wouldn't be able to reveal the game's content beyond its premise and they wouldn't leave themselves open to lawsuits if the game was buggy, delayed or viewed not to be precisely what the invester wanted. So you'd have to commit off a press release and sign a waiver.

Pass.
 
K

Kintaro

Worships the porcelain goddess
I'll keep my relationship with developers simple. You make it and if I like it, I'll buy it. Games business model is too broken as it is for me to invest in it any deeper than that.
 
Z

Zeliard

Member
Kilrogg said:
What would be the fourth company? I can think of Valve, Nintendo and Blizzard, but...
Click to expand...

This is purely subjective, but I'd add id to the list.

I love id. Fantastic developer.
 
W

webrunner

Member
Telltale's episodic stuff tends to work like this: You can pay 35 dollars for the next X episodes, even though all those episodes aren't necessarily even done (or started yet)
 
S

SaggyMonkey

Member
Depends how it works. I'm not dumping money into a game if I'm not getting it back. Just because we're fans, we're not suckers. However, if I'd put like $5k or $10k into something like Portal, there would have been a good chance I'd get some return of some sort.
 
M

McBradders

NeoGAF: my new HOME
If I wasn investing, even a paltry amount of a couple hundred bucks, I would want a producer that would not bullshit me. If the game was late I would expect to be compensated etc. etc.

Too many ways this could be abused horrifically by developers leaving the investors with nothing but an incredibly expensive turkey.
 
F

FirewalkR

Member
McBradders said:
If I wasn investing, even a paltry amount of a couple hundred bucks, I would want a producer that would not bullshit me. If the game was late I would expect to be compensated etc. etc.

Too many ways this could be abused horrifically by developers leaving the investors with nothing but an incredibly expensive turkey.
Click to expand...

Well hopefully it wouldn't be incredibly expensive for every individual...
 
O

Opiate

Member
This is done in other industries, but does not function well for bigger productions. It tends to be applicable for independant projects.

It's interesting, however, to see that Valve is also feeling the sting of financial risk and cost/benefit analysis. It's not surprising that it would choke major publishers like EA -- who are dealing with projects of this nature on a daily basis -- but to see one of the most succesful independant developers comment on it is disquieting.

I might have thought that Valve, at least, due to their enormous successes, would be one of those companies that can do whatever they want. If even they are being forced in to a creatively conservative position.... yikes.
 
Mikey Jr.

Mikey Jr.

Member
freethought said:
So you give Valve money, get a copy of the game and if it's succesful, you make your investment back and maybe even make a return? Fuck it, if you plan on buying the game anyway, send them sixty bucks now. How can it hurt?
Click to expand...

With a developer like Valve, you'd probably be ok.

But at which developer do you have to step back and think for a little? Most likely indie guys, and they would be the people who need your money the most, not Valve. And the indie guys are the people that I would least likely trust. Not saying that I don't trust them at all, but what would stop them from running away with the money?

A group called Unknown Worlds is kinda doing the same thing. They are creating a game called Natural Selection 2. They needed money, so they asked the community and "sold" a game that doesn't exist. Very very risky. They have 1 half life mod under their belt. A great mod, but not much of a record.
 
S

Scrow

Still Tagged Accordingly
‘Hey, I really like this idea you have. I'll be an early investor in that and, as a result, at a later point I may make a return on that product, but I'll also get a copy of that game.'
Click to expand...
hmmm... i'm definitely intrigued.

when one of the main guys behind HL, HL2, Steam etc. starts talking about this kind of stuff, you sit up and take notice.
 
D

Dead Man

Member
So basically a really early prepaid preorder? Nah, take a pass thanks. It might be an interesting idea for smaller games and indie devs, but I am not a gamer to to take risks, I do that elsewhere.
 
onken

onken

Member
I think it could work with smaller indie studios but when you're dealing with $20m production that goes horribly wrong (DNF anyone?) then you're talking about a loooooot of pissed off "investors" with a good incentive never to go near said company again. I can see this scuppering more companies than it saves.
 
J

Joe Shlabotnik

Banned
It's definitely something to consider, but it also seems to open up a can of worms. Would the developers have to answer to the gamer-investors? They would deserve input, but how much? Do you want Blizzard to be financially beholden to the people freaking out over Diablo III's art direction?
 
X

XBOX HIVES

Banned
How would this be possible without some sort of oversight? Say what you will about publisher pressure being a negative influence on development, but when things are left unchecked for too long, you can potentially have another Duke Nukem Forever scenario.
 
S

Steve Youngblood

Member
It's an interesting idea. However, I don't really think it works in execution in the games business because:

1. Big companies have the money in their coffers to manage their own risks. Valve, for example, has plenty of money to develop Half-Life 3 without needing funding from me.

2. Indie devs aren't going to have the credibility to procure any serious investment dollars for big titles. PSN/WiiWare/XBLA title? Maybe. But I'm not giving them sixty dollars to produce their pie in the sky AAA endeavor when there's so many good games on the shelf that I could be playing right now with that money.
 
B

BothBarsOn

Member
My initial reaction was horror but imagine what a kick you'd get out of playing a game that you hadn't just paid for but invested in. For us talentless people, it would be a great way to feel part of game creation.
 
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