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Sony sues George 'geohot' Hotz and fail0verflow over PS3 jailbreak.

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B

BobTheFork

Member
SapientWolf said:
This was the time for the olive branch, not the gauntlets.
Click to expand...
This kind of IS the olive branch since they supposedly haven't asked he be charged with anything yet. Well, call this the warning shot.
 
S

sangreal

Member
RyanDG said:
That's what I thought you were referencing and here's why it's not as cut and dry as you make it.



How is the information derived from testing being used to promote the security? And furthermore, considering releasing the keys has facilitated copyright infringement, how has he met the second clause?

For the research clause to be applicable, both points have to be met, and I'm having a hard time seeing how you are arguing his release of the keys and actions is protected under the DMCA with that understanding. Let me know though if you have an idea, because I'm not seeing it...
Click to expand...

They keys don't have anything to do with the DMCA. They are not a copy protection mechanism. Copied software is already signed.
 
M

Mr.Squirrel

Tom
zoku88 said:
hackers do that all of the time. Like when those MIT students were showing off the exploit for the MBTA card system.

The MBTA tried to stop them from doing so, but they failed. They also sued them, but that was dismissed.
Click to expand...

Exactly, there's tons of conferences and conventions on this type of stuff. Goes back to a basic security principal. Security through obscurity is always destined to fail.
 
X

x3sphere

Member
Zapages said:
when the hackers had a convention on what they did, which was OMG they are begging to get caught type of thing. :lol :lol :lol But who am I to criticize. I would like homebrew like the next person, but I don't want to get banned from PSN and all of its great features.
Click to expand...

Well, what they did isn't illegal. The guys in fail0verflow have no reason to hide their identity. Not to mention majority of these guys live outside the US, where the DMCA means squat.
 
Zoe

Zoe

Member
angelfly said:
In what way did his release 1facilitate 2copyright infringement?
Click to expand...

1
fa·cil·i·tate/fəˈsiliˌtāt/
Verb: Make (an action or process) easy or easier.

2
Copyright infringement is the unauthorized or prohibited use of works under copyright, infringing the copyright holder's exclusive rights, such as the right to reproduce or perform the copyrighted work, or to make derivative works.

How did his release not facilitate copyright infringement?
 
Z

Zapages

Member
zoku88 said:
hackers do that all of the time. Like when those MIT students were showing off the exploit for the MBTA card system.

The MBTA tried to stop them from doing so, but they failed. They also sued them, but that was dismissed.
Click to expand...


So the judge should dismiss this then... But MIT showing a security flaw vs bunch hackers who are doing this to get homebrew running or even get some piracy enabled on a console is a totally different situation IMHO.

Regardless Sony should be giving these folks jobs instead of sueing or restraining them. What they should do is get firmware information so they can prevent this in the future. But hey I do not run sony.
 
M

mattiewheels

And then the LORD David Bowie saith to his Son, Jonny Depp: 'Go, and spread my image amongst the cosmos. For every living thing is in anguish and only the LIGHT shall give them reprieve.'
I guess this means Sony's not offering him a job, huh?
 
A

angelfly

Member
Zoe said:
1
fa·cil·i·tate/fəˈsiliˌtāt/
Verb: Make (an action or process) easy or easier.

2
Copyright infringement is the unauthorized or prohibited use of works under copyright, infringing the copyright holder's exclusive rights, such as the right to reproduce or perform the copyrighted work, or to make derivative works.

How did his release not facilitate copyright infringement?
Click to expand...
He did neither. Backup loaders still do not work what he released. Also if you're talking about the people turning games into PSN packages that is made possible using a program by Team Delight which neither geohot or fail0verflow is affiliated with.
 
R

RyanDG

Member
sangreal said:
They keys don't have anything to do with the DMCA. They are not a copy protection mechanism. Copied software is already signed.
Click to expand...

No, but the software being released that allows software to be signed by the keys has everything to do with the DMCA. I should've clarified in my first post.
 
Zoe

Zoe

Member
jcm said:
Doesn't meet the first, either.
Click to expand...

Yeah, isn't it saying you're supposed to increase the security, not completely eliminate it?

angelfly said:
He did neither. Backup loaders still do not work what he released. Also if you're talking about the people turning games into PSN packages that is made possible using a program by Team Delight which neither geohot or fail0verflow is affiliated with.
Click to expand...

Someone in the other thread already got one PS3 game working. His work facilitated in allowing that program to run on 3.55.
 
J

JordanLMiller

Member
Seems like you should be allowed to do whatever you want with your own console. I mean the jailbreak doesn't automatically mean piracy right?
 
Zoe

Zoe

Member
angelfly said:
using the psn package method which is made possible because of a tool released by Team Delight
Click to expand...

His work facilitated allowing that program to run on 3.55.
 
M

MrPink93485

Member
shintoki said:
Poor multi-millionaire corporation, who decide it's better to limit functionality for paying users. In hopes that it deters piracy, which will come one way or another regardless of what they do.

And to be honest, I can give you a dozen reasons why PSP failed to move software before I'd list piracy as one.
Click to expand...

Yes, poor corporation indeed, I wouldn't go as far to say that they're victims but since they've invested billions of dollars into the machine and have yet to reap much from it, what else were we to expect from Sony at this point? And, it does go beyond Sony. Such as developers, notably first party ones. And then if this means tons of hacking online, then it extends to others. Now, piracy is wide open, regardless of the case or not, but it's all about delaying the inevitable. The best thing Sony can do at this point is to release a new console, but that of course will take time.

In a perfect world, I'd be perfectly fine with people using their machines for custom firmware and the like without piracy, but it's unlikely to happen. At this point, I've accepted that whatever happens, is gonna happen, but I'm not terribly interested in custom firmware, so it's probably a gloomier scenario for me personally. As for the PSP, I know software was not great and all (I don't personally own one, and never have), but I would have to imagine it's played a pretty decent factor in software sales. 60 million owners and we see titles like Peace Walker barely sell a million if that?
 
V

Vamphuntr

Member
Truespeed said:
You really have to wonder if any of those lawyers thought twice about placing their names in those documents.
Click to expand...

With the money Sony is paying them I would probably sell my soul too.
 
O

Omiee

Member
SapientWolf said:
Probably just the opposite. Nerds don't have a very high tolerance for bullies.
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wtf is this, people seem to think geohot and who ever has all the right in the world to hack a console.
why is sony a bully when they are just looking out for their investment and trying to secure future investments from other publishers. An investment that would be lost if piracy and more things become something big on the ps3.
 
Z

Zombie James

Banned
Just finished reading that document, and I think things are going to get very, very messy for all involved. Comments like these...

The FAIL0VERFLOW Defendants intentionally circumvented SCEA’s TPMs, accessed
the PS3 System and trafficked in Circumvention Devices and SCEA’s proprietary information,
with full knowledge that their unlawful conduct would irreparably harm SCEA. Indeed, five
days prior to appearing at the Chaos Conference, Bushing echoed a fellow hacker’s
comment anticipating this irreparable harm: “Last chance to sell any Sony stock you may
have.”
Click to expand...

Even the FAIL0VERFLOW Defendants, when interviewed,
admitted that they expect Mr. Hotz’s conduct “to make piracy easier without accomplishing
anything intrinsically useful.”
Click to expand...

...might come back to bite failoverflow/geohot if this ever goes to trial.
 
P

phosphor112

Banned
Elios83 said:
In my opinion Sony's goal is clear, they want to scare to death those people (and other hackers like them) whose life will be inevitably ruined for a while with legal troubles (not that they didn't asked for it....) so that there won't be future developments in PS3 piracy while they close the current hole issuing new software and hardware.
Click to expand...
Well, IF they win anyone that tries this stuff again will get into deep shit.
 
R

RyanDG

Member
Zombie James said:
Just finished reading that document, and I think things are going to get very, very messy for all involved. Comments like these...


...might come back to bite failoverflow/geohot if this ever goes to trial.
Click to expand...

Yes. And even though there are few quoted laws that are definitely done in a poor (or ill-advised manner) -- the Computer Abuse act for one is laughable in its inclusion -- this is definitely not as cut and dry as people are making it out to be (ie, protected by DMCA exemptions!). Sony's temporary restraining order is actually rather solid overall in terms of what they've addressed and how they've addressed it.

This case is going to have a ton of repercussions if it goes to trial, not just for this generation - but future generations of console homebrew as well.
 
Z

Zapages

Member
phosphor112 said:
Well, IF they win anyone that tries this stuff again will get into deep shit.
Click to expand...

unless they never go online then they should be clear of anything. But that is not fun once again due to PSN being blocked (whenever that happens). :|
 
R

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
Zoe said:
Someone in the other thread already got one PS3 game working. His work facilitated in allowing that program to run on 3.55.
Click to expand...
Wow if you don't realize the horrible slippery slope that presents, I'm not sure what to say.

Since I can find the keys via a Google search, I suppose they are liable too.
 
Z

Zapages

Member
RyanDG said:
Yes. And even though there are few quoted laws that are definitely done in a poor (or ill-advised manner) -- the Computer Abuse act for one is laughable in its inclusion -- this is definitely not as cut and dry as people are making it out to be (ie, protected by DMCA exemptions!). Sony's temporary restraining order is actually rather solid overall in terms of what they've addressed and how they've addressed it.

This case is going to have a ton of repercussions if it goes to trial, not just for this generation - but future generations of console homebrew as well.
Click to expand...

QFT... There is going to be many different repercussions in the future generations for sure. Let's see what happens.
 
M

minimoke

Member
We should change the title of this thread as this is not technically a Lawsuit (yet) but an application for a restraining order.:D
 
A

angelfly

Member
phosphor112 said:
Well, IF they win anyone that tries this stuff again will get into deep shit.
Click to expand...
No, they'll just convince them to stay anonymous. fail0verflow as well as geohot were doing interviews on BBC. And geohot himself has been on TV before discussing his iphone hacking. compare that to darkalex on the PSP.
Omiee said:
wtf is this, people seem to think geohot and who ever has all the right in the world to hack a console.
why is sony a bully when they are just looking out for their investment and trying to secure future investments from other publishers. An investment that would be lost if piracy and more things become something big on the ps3.
Click to expand...
You have the right to do what you want with a piece of equipment you pay for.
 
T

The Crimson Kid

what are you waiting for
Wasn't George Hotz the guy who originally warned Sony about possible vulnerabilities in security by using OtherOS, thus prompting Sony to eventually remove it?
 
Zoe

Zoe

Member
Raistlin said:
Wow if you don't realize the horrible slippery slope that presents, I'm not sure what to say.

Since I can find the keys via a Google search, I suppose they are liable too.
Click to expand...

The simple fact is geohot put himself at a huge risk by not only being the first to release a new CFW but also being incredibly vocal about it.
 
O

Omiee

Member
BrokenEchelon said:
It's cute that this is the best they could think of to do.
Click to expand...


yeah lets just wait untill we see threads poping up here about consoles accounts being banned from psn.


angelfly said:
No, they'll just convince them to stay anonymous. fail0verflow as well as geohot were doing interviews on BBC. And geohot himself has been on TV before discussing his iphone hacking. compare that to darkalex on the PSP.

You have the right to do what you want with a piece of equipment you pay for.
Click to expand...


thats not what he did, he released keys and CFW on the net i think that would enable people to pirate games etc.
 
B

BrokenEchelon

Banned
angelfly said:
No, they'll just convince them to stay anonymous. fail0verflow as well as geohot were doing interviews on BBC. And geohot himself has been on TV before discussing his iphone hacking. compare that to darkalex on the PSP.
Click to expand...

They did make it pretty easy for Sony to sue them due to that level of exposure, but regardless of that I'm pretty convinced that this entire fiasco is simply going to accelerate the propagation of piracy on the system.
 
C

captmcblack

Member
Sony is going to unleash a torrent of ownage unto itself the likes of which have never been seen in the garage dev universe.

They clearly didn't learn last time.

The Internet will collectively make sure they learn this time.
 
B

BrokenEchelon

Banned
captmcblack said:
Sony is going to unleash a torrent of ownage unto itself the likes of which have never been seen in the garage dev universe.

They clearly didn't learn last time.

The Internet will collectively make sure they learn this time.
Click to expand...

That's what I'm getting at.

Did none of them see what happened after Julian Assange got arrested?
 
A

angelfly

Member
Omiee said:
thats not what he did, he released keys and CFW on the net i think that would enable people to pirate games etc.
Click to expand...
He only released a patch and as for the keys you can't get in trouble for calculating keys.
 
N

nbcjr

Member
newsflash: turns out the restriction order wasn't even signed, that's why geo has put all files back online.

everyone thinks this is just a scare tactic by sony, because noone alerts someone before the raid to collect the equipments used.


sony is desperate.
 
H

Hex

Banned
Vamphuntr said:
Really? How much do you think they get to defend a big corporation like that? Pretty sure it's big bucks. I'm honest, I would do it for the $$$ :D
Click to expand...

I have no doubt their lawyers have some hella big retainers.
I was referring to the selling soul drama.
 
Phoenix

Phoenix

Member
mattiewheels said:
I guess this means Sony's not offering him a job, huh?
Click to expand...


And that's a damn shame because clearly they need him if they want to prevent this sort of thing from happening over and over again.
 
Zoe

Zoe

Member
BrokenEchelon said:
That's what I'm getting at.

Did none of them see what happened after Julian Assange got arrested?
Click to expand...

What exactly would Anonymous do? Most of them were kids running DDoS programs that don't require technical proficiency. The set of people capable of writing successful homebrew is much smaller.
 
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